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Emporia Vue/IotaWatt Vs. Fingerprinting

svetz

Works in theory! Practice? That's something else
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If you had 100 devices all consuming power, could you deduce the actual power usage of each device? Devices like the IotaWatt and Emporia Vue work by wrapping CTs around each circuit and measuring/recording it.

A while back I saw something (don't recall what) that had CTs on the mains and it deduced what was running on the circuits from the actual draw. Clever as it cut the cost of needing CTs on every circuit and could even tell you about discrete devices on those circuits.

At first blush that seems crazy. For example, 3 devices drawing 1 amp, .5 amps, and .5 amps. You couldn't tell if it was the 1 amp or the two .5 amp devices running.

But, their thinking was we don't live in a world of even numbers, instead of 1 amp, devices were more likely to draw 1.017 amps. That is every device had a unique amperage fingerprint which a program could learn by turning the device on and off and entering the device. It could also work on more than a circuit, it could work on a device level.

As I recall, the program wasn't that good. I suspect the problems were:
  1. unknown phantom devices drawing unexpected power
  2. some devices (e.g., a PC or EV charger) draw variable amounts of current
  3. It needs to know every device
  4. a margin of error in the mains CT measurement.
I like the idea of device-level power measurement rather than circuit level, it could allow far greater home automation when on battery backup, that is deciding what to turn off or on based on available battery and solar.

Anyway, thought I'd throw it out there if anyone is interested in discussing the topic.


See Also:
 
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It is the Sense system that deduces the appliances based on the current seen on the mains.


I installed a sense a few weeks back. The reason I chose the sense was that the systems that had a sensor per circuit did not have enough sensors for my house.... I figured that either way I was not going to get the exact data so go with easy.

Note: One advantage of deducing what is what is that it can figure out different devices that are on the same circuit. (It knows the difference between my toaster and blender that are on the same circuit.)

Sense can also work with house automation that turns things on or off. As an example, if you have Alexa set up to turn your lights on and off, Sense will work with allexa to figure out what your light's power signature is. (I don't have home automation so I don't use this, However, I might look into getting a single smart plug and controller so I can help teach the Sense system.)

The biggest drawback so far is that it is slow to figure things out. It has been installed for a couple of weeks and has figured out most of the high-current items (remarkably accurately) but it is still figuring things out. Every couple of days it identifies another item. I suspect it will never figure out a lot of the smaller items.... but it is giving me what I need.

BTW: I suspect the system is looking at current over time to help figure things out. As an example, a device might have a 2 second start surge of 13.2A and a runtime current of 5.48A.

Since the Sense AI seems pretty good at figuring out the high current items, the ideal situation would be a system that has per-circuit sensors *and* the AI to figure things out. Then you could put the sensors on the plugs and light circuits and let the AI figure out the rest.

The Display for the Sense system could be a little bit better at providing more detail. As an example there is a chart showing watts used over time. The display only has one point shown on the Y axis (the max) so when you are looking at the curve you have to kinda guess.... "well the max is 5KW and the curve is about half way up so it must be 2.5KW".

So far I will grade the product as a "B". However, it could be improved a lot with just software updates.
* Better detail resolution on the charts
* Better charts per device
* An interface to let the user do more to 'teach' the system what devices are turned on.
* Faster identification of devices. (From their documentation..... they say they are improving on it.... we will see)

So, while it is not the cats meow, I am happy with the product and it is doing what I need it to do.

Note: One thing you must be aware of: The system sends data back to the Sense Company servers for processing. This allowes them to build a larger and larger data set for the AI to work from. Presumably over time they will get better and better at recognizing device signatures, but this data tracking will be a big turn-off for some people.
 
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I had a Sense energy monitor which touted its fingerprinting technology. I sold it because it did not do a good job recognizing my big loads such as EVSEs, inverter driven refrigerators. Those were the ones that mattered and which are all on separate circuits. I had considered the Emporia but my critical loads panel has no room for that many CTs.
 
I've wondered how they do that too.
Every month when I get my online hydro bill they offer a breakdown of exactly what fraction of my bill was used for various purposes, such as (from memory):
  • heating and cooling
  • cleaning
  • entertainment
  • cooking
  • etc
So, obviously they are making inferences about devices used based on my home's demand pattern. Pretty amazing, really, when you think that all they have to work with is the aggregated demand through my single meter!
This is done automatically for all their customers, I assume in the belief that if we better understand where our demand is we'll be better able to control our usage and minimize waste.

Not exactly what you're asking, I know. But potentially useful and I really like the fact that it's free and automatic - I don't need to add any special meters or take any additional steps to get it.
I have no idea how accurate it is, and no way of checking. (The only thing I monitor separately myself with a kill-a-watt is my ebike charging)
But just eyeballing the breakdown from time to time there is nothing that jumps out as obviously wrong.
 
I had a Sense energy monitor which touted its fingerprinting technology. I sold it because it did not do a good job recognizing my big loads such as EVSEs, inverter driven refrigerators. Those were the ones that mattered and which are all on separate circuits. I had considered the Emporia but my critical loads panel has no room for that many CTs.
If they had an interface that allowed you to tell it about a device and then turn it on and off to teach it the signature it would be a great improvement. They come close with the interface that lets you tell it what devices you have and even give make/model. If they just added an "identify" button that instructs you to turn the device on and then off so it could capture the signature it would be a pretty good set-up.
 
... If they just added an "identify" button that instructs you to turn the device on and then off so it could capture the signature it would be a pretty good set-up.
Wow! Lots of great feedback! Thank you!
Does it accurately recognize PCs? As they use a varying amount of power (depending on what you're doing) I thought that might be difficult.

... did not do a good job recognizing my big loads such as EVSEs, inverter driven refrigerators....
I thought it would have trouble with things that had varying current.

...Every month when I get my online hydro bill they offer a breakdown of exactly what fraction of my bill was used for various purposes, such as (from memory):
  • heating and cooling
  • cleaning
  • entertainment
  • cooking
  • etc
Wow... big brother is watching...

... I assume in the belief that... we ... better ... control our usage and minimize waste....

How's that working out?

It's a pet peeve, but can't get the family to turn off lights & fan when they vacate a room
fb62388fa27e206998207f772a80e639.jpg
 
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Wow! Lots of great feedback! Thank you!
Does it accurately recognize PCs? As they use a varying amount of power (depending on what you're doing) I thought that might be difficult.
It has not identified my PC yet..... One thing I have not done yet is added my compute, network and entertainment devices to the inventory list. It is not required to list your devices, but they do say that if you add them to the inventory it makes it easier to identify them.
 
I've had another look at my hydro usage breakdown as provided by my grid provider and it's surprisingly accurate:
  • there was a huge spike for cooling last August when we had several prolonged heat waves causing my old inefficient A/C unit to run continuously for days on end (we plan on replacing it this year before it breaks down completely)
  • there was a huge drop in usage for the month we were away when there was no usage attributed to cooking and cleaning, and big reductions in lighting and entertainment. Refrigeration costs for the frig and freezer continued.
  • the "always-on" or so-called phantom load continued, as you'd expect. We have a power bar on a seldom used tv in the basement but, other than that we haven't gone out of our way to reduce these since the cost is actually quite low.
I filled out their online survey as to which devices we have so future breakdown reports might be even more accurate.
 
I still like my Emporia Vue. Cheaper than Sense, you don’t have to tell them much, and you can see nice 1 sec resolution plots of circuit currents. Their shapes are obviously what Sense is working from.
I installed it to estimate average and surge loads on potential circuits for a critical loads panel, but it also helped me find several parasitic loads I didn’t need.
 
An Update on my Sense Whole house power meter:

It has been a few months now and the system is *slowly* figuring things out. It identified 17 different devices so far.... but I can't figure out what 3 of them are (They are labeled Device 1, Device 2 and Heat 1).

When a device is found it tries to guess at what it is and is usually fairly accurate or at least gives a good hint. As example, the hair drier was identified as 'Heat 2' and I quickly was able to figure out it was the hair dryer based on when it was shown as on or off. Just now it identified a 'motor' and since I was just out in my shop I was able to determine it was either a Fan or the air compressor.... I turned on the air compressor and Sense said 'motor' turned on so I renamed it as 'Air Compressor'

One thing it did was identified 165W of Always on.... and that added up to something like 42% of my total usage. I was able to reduce that to around 125W and am working on reducing it more. However, I am not sure I will ever get it down to 100W without sacrificing convenience. It is amazing how much power things like built in appliances, clocks and other always on electronics use up.

I contacted the company with a suggestion for putting the app into a learning mode and letting you turn devices on-off.... but they replied that would not work for the way detection works. I suspect the AI figuring out what is what is all in the cloud and it would be hard to tie the app to it the way I suggested.

Overall I am very pleased with the product. I just wish it was able to identify devices faster. (They say that as they collect more data their AI will get faster......but that does not help me much right now) Tying this back to the original question of the thread: Except for the slowness of identifying devices, I think I like this better than I would a product with multiple sensors. The reason for this is that Sence can identify multiple devices on the same breaker but the product with multiple sensors would only tell you there is power draw on that breaker.

The ideal product would combine a lot of sensors *and* the AI. This would allow for very quick identification of power usage at the sensor level and as it learns it would start identifying at the device leverl. I also suspect that with multiple sensors, the AI would be able to get better signatures and therefor learn faster.
 
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Thank you for the update!

One thing it did was identified 165W of Always on.... and that added up to something like 42% of my total usage. I was able to reduce that to around 125W and am working on reducing it more.
So the always-on was about 4 kWh per day and great job getting it down to 3 kWh/d!
If you could post what it was and what you did in Minimizing Consumption it would be gold for the rest us.
Or perhaps start a new thread more specific for Watt-Huning, even learning techniques people use would be useful.

... putting the app into a learning mode and letting you turn devices on-off.... but they replied that would not work for the way detection works.
Pity, but at least it sounds like your on/off labeling works.

...Except for the slowness of identifying devices, I think I like this better than I would a product with multiple sensors. The reason for this is that Sence can identify multiple devices on the same breaker but the product with multiple sensors would only tell you there is power draw on that breaker. The ideal product would combine a lot of sensors *and* the AI.
I suspect the multiple sensors would confuse the AI. It would give more accurate branch data; but the AI wouldn't know what was on a branch.

...labeled Device 1, Device 2 and Heat 1... the hair drier was identified as 'Heat 2' ...Just now it identified a 'motor' ...
Interesting! So the fingerprinting must be more than power just draw, but also startup/shutdown characteristics.

What type of device types was it able to determine right away?
 
What type of device types was it able to determine right away?

Here are screenshots of what it has identified so far:

1623514108482.png1623514159508.png

To tell the truth, I don't remember which ones it identified first.

The 'other' category is where it puts all consumption it does not yet recognize.

It also identified some can lighting in my kitchen, but I have since changed them from CFL to LED so it no longer recognized them. Consequently I deleted them from the device list. It has not yet re-identified them.

If you could post what it was and what you did in Minimizing Consumption it would be gold for the rest us.
Or perhaps start a new thread more specific for Watt-Huning, even learning techniques people use would be useful.
It was a lot of little things.....

* I unplugged a bunch of USB chargers that I plugged in over the years but never use.
* I found an Ethernet switch that only had one device hooked to it.... I just hooked the device directly to the main and unplugged the switch
* I had a WiFi router that I had installed as a VPN so I could VPN in from outside the country..... I unplugged it and will only plug it in when I am traveling.
* It turns out my Comcast Ethernet Modem was an older, less efficient model. Comcast sent me a new one that runs faster *and* uses lower power (and did not charge me!!)
* The big change was with my two entertainment centers.... in particular the Comcast DVR boxes.
- The comcast DVR boxes are power hogs. They are full-on Linux computers running 24-7. I did a bit of research and found out that the newer 4K DVR is a bit more efficient so I had comcast send me the new one even though I don't have a 4K TV. (They did not charge me for it either)​
- The new DVR is not as bad as the old one, but it is still a hog. I wanted to set it up to turn on when I turn the TV on, but it takes about 5 minutes to boot up so that was not really an option. I only watch TV in the evening so I put the DVR on a smart plug that has a timer function that turns it on in the late afternoon and off late at night. That way it is ready when I need it but not sucking power 24-7.
Since I had the switched plug, I put my whole entertainment center on it. That way the TV, DVD, Stereo, Nvidia Shield, Harmony Remote, etc all turn off and stop sucking power. (The Nvidia shield is another hog)​
Next step: I have a power plug that can take a low voltage signal to turn on or off the plug. I am going to plug my printer and monitor into it and then drive the signal with the USB from my computer. That way the monitor and printer is only turned on when the PC is on.

There are things I could unplug when not in use, but it starts to be a convenience trade-off that I am not willing to make because with my solar and net-metering plan I am only paying the ~$10 minimum the utility requires. Additional power reduction does not really save me $$.

The whole reason I am doing this is that next year they will be changing the net-metering plan and I will be paying a lot more. I am thinking of adding batteries and doing peak shaving, but the first step is to reduce usage.

As an aside: When researching the DVR power hogs I found a couple articles that said the ISVs, Cable companies and Satellite companies don't really try to reduce the power of the equipment because there is no demand to. If you consider the number of DVRs and Modems out there, you realize that there is a huge waste of energy. I am not a fan of government sticking their nose into private business, but this is an area where some carefully crafted incentives might be a good idea.
 
An Update on my Sense Whole house power meter: It has been a few months now...
Can we get an update? (@Thor you've been using it a while too?) Would like to compare what you're doing with @MurphyGuy 's experiences. Have there been any product updates or improvements that have made it better?
 
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The Energy Detective (TED) looks similar to Sense, although TED has a Spyder which makes it a mix of an IotaWatt & Sense?

Also saw the GEM monitor, folks unhappy with Sense seem to switch up to Ted or Gem.

Also found an interesting DoE site that uses your zipcode and the year your house was built to analyze upgrades and payback periods:
1672657624592.png
 
Can we get an update? (@Thor you've been using it a while too?) Would like to compare what you're doing with @MurphyGuy 's experiences. Have there been any product updates or improvements that have made it better?
Overall.... I would only call it OK. It has discovered a lot of devices, but some of them I have not been able to figure out what they are.... and there is still a LOT of devices it has not yet discovered.
The Energy Detective (TED) looks similar to Sense, although TED has a Spyder which makes it a mix of an IotaWatt & Sense?
I have not studied TED + Spyder, but it looks like it might be what I wish Sense was. If it can still isolate down to the device level and tell you which branch circuit it is it would be a great help. Furthermore, just knowing the current and power usage per branch would be useful.
 
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