Engineer775: EG4 18K-PV vs Sol-Ark 15K

[jharrell]

I think its all part of the marketing slight of hand. This solark 15k can "power your whole house".....200A....

It literally powers my whole house in a code compliant way.

Is a 15kw whole house backup generator with 200 amp ATS not the same thing? Only difference is I don't have to change its oil and it pays me back reducing my electric when the grid is up.

 

[1201]

I had critical loads panel before with small inverter, no point with 15k Sol-Ark can still overload critical loads if I put everything I want on it such as A/C, well, hot water heater, kitchen appliances.

Critical loads vs " putting everything I want on it" are two completely different ideas.

Manually managing loads sounds doable in theory until someone forgets and the whole house shuts down.

 

[1201]

I think its all part of the marketing slight of hand. This solark 15k can "power your whole house".....200A....

In the fine print you figure out when grid goes down after dark you actually have 50A to share between loads. If that's not enough its time for a second 15k?

Time for a second inverter, or create a critical loads sub panel and not try to run the whole house on the single inverter.

 

[SunDave]

Good points but your generator wasn't running all the time. With an inverter all the power is passing through the inverter all the time and if the grid goes down while using more than 50a or so then EVERYTHING shuts down.

My thinking is, if you don't have frequent power outages then a true critical loads panel works just fine . I don't really need to use my electric clothes dryer if the grid goes down for half a day.

If you do have frequent power outages then it's cheaper to spend the money on more inverters instead of a MID, and If you have two inverters you don't need 200a passing through each one.

So, no, I don't buy that having three 50a inverters requires three 200a transfer switches.

I'm still with you on the lack of desire for a MID. I just run so far under 12-15kW most days that it's not even a concern. If I lived with a bunch of people, I have no doubt the empty spot for "just in case" would have another 15K in its place.

I spotted 11 power outages over the last year on the solar assistant dashboard and I didn't happen to be over the inverter capability for any of those. I must be an energy miser. Also, the inverter will tank a short term overage.

 

[jharrell]

Critical loads vs " putting everything I want on it" are two completely different ideas.

Manually managing loads sounds doable in theory until someone forgets and the whole house shuts down.

Its works great in practice which is why they sell inverters with 200 amp transfer relays, you keep doing the critical loads panel if you want. I have a UPS for my computer equipment that gives me an hour to reset the inverter for truly "critical" loads , I have never tripped my Sol-Ark in a power outage yet.

But this is why the Gridboss is nice, you put your large loads on the smart ports and shed them as needed in priority to keep the inverter from shutting down. Then you don't even have to pay close attention.

I literally went over 15kw twice in the last week for short spikes, this is 4 people, 3k sqft, in really hot FL right now, A/C running constantly, all electric house, I did recently put in a heat pump water heater which is a huge power savings way cheaper than a second inverter and cools my garage:

 

[1201]

.

But this is why the Gridboss is nice, you put your large loads on the smart ports and shed them as needed in priority to keep the inverter from shutting down. Then you don't even have to pay close attention.

Hmm. You said earlier you didn't want to have to do a clp. It seems more difficult and more expensive to move large loads to the smart load ports of the grid boss.

 

[jharrell]

Hmm. You said earlier you didn't want to have to do a clp. It seems more difficult and more expensive to move large loads to the smart load ports of the grid boss.

Gridboss isn't a CLP? Its has full 200 amp service, just has relays controlling some ports. Usually largest loads would landed there. Yes have to move circuits to it if I want to use the relays, completely optional and can be done at any time. It's a major loads panel not critical.

So much more flexible than CLP driven off a single inverter with a 60 or 90 amp relay in so many ways.

 

[Cmiller]

@jharrell @1201 In my personal experience, due to the extremely clean transfer of the 15K, when switching from grid to inverting, you don't find out when the power goes off. That actually ends up being a problem, because people don't know to shut off high draw items, and they end up depleting their batteries!

True, actual experience of one of our customers..... Customers were meal prepping for guests that were there for the day, electric range was running, well pump for water, crock pot, water heater, etc. Power went off, but they didn't notice, as their power stayed on. (Great! Right?) All was great until right about when they were ready to eat dinner, then the whole house went dark. Batteries were empty. Luckily the food was hot and they had candles, so they ended up having a nice candle-lit dinner!

Same customer had power go off a few times where then their aux electric strips kicked in on the furnace (heat pump, with electric aux strips), at that point the 15K said "nope, I'm not capable of pushing 20,000W+" and shut down. (This was pure oversight on our part. Fully aware of that!)

We ended up installing a "grid sense" relay that cuts the coil wires for the Aux heat strips to avoid that scenario. We also ended up installing (at the customers request) an indicator light that will turn on in their main living space, to indicate that grid power is off. That way they can limit their power draw.

Our conclusion has been that even though a single 15K can potentially work as "whole house backup" 99% of the time, it is possibly better to stick with critical loads panels if there is only a single inverter being installed.

Something else that factors into this whole picture as well is the fact that some of the local Utilities have a Level 2 interconnection threshold of 25kW, which means that installing 2x 15K's would mean more requirements in terms of paperwork and insurance coverage. Some don't even allow more than 25kW AC on interconnected solar for residential installs.

 

[455dan]

How often do you pull 200 amps? My whole 3000 sqft house rarely pulls more than 50 amp at once especially if I load shed the Ev charger. My 5 ton AC only pulls like 16 amps my whole house is pulling under 30 amp right now with dryer and A/C running plus all the lights and computers etc..

Its a backup, if the power goes out I pay some attention to what large appliances I turn on, but I barely have to do that, I just didn't want to have to pick and choose and move things to a sub panel had that before no fun. Pretty common setup which is why they make em this way.

To pass through 200 amp service you need 200 amp wire and switch gear even if you never use it, 99% of the time Im on grid and don't have to worry about tripping an inverter or breaker.

yesterday: simple short grid interactive 18K pv test , 3 loads- EV charging at 12 KW , house heat turned on , plus the dryer- no stove, oven, water heater, Hot tub, outbuilding heat, or 5 HP air compressor running.
Rainy overcast days batteries were about empty.
Second screenshot was this morning. Strip Heat cycle, hot tub, and some misc.

 

[jharrell]

@jharrell @1201 In my personal experience, due to the extremely clean transfer of the 15K, when switching from grid to inverting, you don't find out when the power goes off. That actually ends up being a problem, because people don't know to shut off high draw items, and they end up depleting their batteries!

This is a big issue because Sol-Ark doesn't have a working grid down notification built in. I guess they used to but it doesn't work anymore, this is pretty inexcusable.

I have it working using home assistant and get a push notification the instant the grid goes down, it's true you might not notice it otherwise just flicker in the lights.

All was great until right about when they were ready to eat dinner, then the whole house went dark. Batteries were empty. Luckily the food was hot and they had candles, so they ended up having a nice candle-lit dinner!

Again there should be multiple push notifications for low battery, 50%, 30% 20% 10% etc, there should be no excuse for this to occur and it would just be a software change.

We ended up installing a "grid sense" relay that cuts the coil wires for the Aux heat strips to avoid that scenario. We also ended up installing (at the customers request) an indicator light that will turn on in their main living space, to indicate that grid power is off. That way they can limit their power draw.

This is why the Gridboss is appealing, you can land heat strips on the smart ports and anything else like that or put them on the non-backed up port, Sol-Ark has the single smart port up to 80 amps I am using for a EV charger.

Heat strips aren't as big a concern here, they pretty much never come on its all heat pump and mine are only 8kw anyway, still need to pay attention if the grid is down obviously wouldn't want emergency heat to come on unless absolutely necessary. My wood fireplace would be in use

 

[jharrell]

yesterday: simple short grid tied 18K pv test 3 loads- EV charging at 12 KW , house heat, plus dryer- no stove ,oven, water heater, Hot tub, outbuilding heat,or 5 HP air compressor running. Rainy overcast days batteries were about empty.

Yeah my EV is only 6kw which you can see on my graph for 3-4 hours on Sun. If you have a big EV and want to do 48+ amp charging you are going to want to load shed it on battery.

My dryer is going to heat pump next upgrade, still cheaper than a second inverter and save more power too just like heat pump water heater.

Was that a heat pump or strips?

 

[455dan]

Yeah my EV is only 6kw which you can see on my graph for 3-4 hours on Sun. If you have a big EV and want to do 48+ amp charging you are going to want to load shed it on battery.

My dryer is going to heat pump next upgrade, still cheaper than a second inverter and save more power too just like heat pump water heater.

Was that a heat pump or strips?

Old school strips. right around 17KW. Another cool morning and running again right now.

 

[Brucey]

Old school strips. right around 17KW. Another cool morning and running again right now.

The xws will be earning their keep

 

[455dan]

The xws will be earning their keep

Yes, I do also have to say the 18K PV is and has been a trouper...

 

[jharrell]

Old school strips. right around 17KW. Another cool morning and running again right now.

It's actually surprising to me to think people are using large resistance heating like that as a primary heat source, definitely can't do that on a single split phase inverter, then you're just gobbling battery up as well.

I would think up north it would be more gas heat, both for HVAC and water and cooking too. My last house had piped natural gas for water, hot tub / pool, cooking and dryer. No gas HVAC because it's FL and pointless still heat pump with small emergency heat strip backup never used. It got down to 73F last night here and that was much lower than usual lately which has stayed in the 80's. Everyone was freaking out in Feb because it stayed below freezing for more than a day like a 100 year event and I am near the GA line.

A gas house could easily get by with a single 15k, but yeah if your using heat strips then your are going to be spending the money to support them both on grid and off with serious solar batteries and inverter power.

 

[455dan]

It's actually surprising to me to think people are using large resistance heating like that as a primary heat source, definitely can't do that on a single split phase inverter, then you're just gobbling battery up as well.

I would think up north it would be more gas heat, both for HVAC and water and cooking too. My last house had piped natural gas for water, hot tub / pool, cooking and dryer. No gas HVAC because it's FL and pointless still heat pump with small emergency heat strip backup never used. It got down to 73F last night here and that was much lower than usual lately which has stayed in the 80's. Everyone was freaking out in Feb because it stayed below freezing for more than a day like a 100 year event and I am near the GA line.

A gas house could easily get by with a single 15k, but yeah if your using heat strips then your are going to be spending the money to support them both on grid and off with serious solar batteries and inverter power.

We use a Catalytic Blaze king wood stove most of the winter, But in between seasons it will run you out of the house (too warm) so electric heat has a place. Also our electric rates are not high even with the recent increase in rates to 10-12 cents per KWH.

I am not even sure anymore whether we save money burning energy logs @ $340 a ton versus just running forced air electric. Cut a lot of fire wood, but that means bringing bugs, bark, and debris in with the wood and been put on notice by the other half that is Not her ideal method.
Works for the shop garage in the winter though.

ps. Bought my first mini split in a 24 SEER2 so we are learning slowly, but need to install it.

 

[jharrell]

We use a Catalytic Blaze king wood stove most of the winter, But in between seasons it will run you out of the house (too warm) so electric heat has a place. Also our electric rates are not high even with the recent increase in rates to 10-12 cents per KWH.

I am not even sure anymore whether we save money burning energy logs @ $340 a ton versus just running forced air electric. Cut a lot of fire wood, but that means bringing bugs, bark, and debris in with the wood and been put on notice by the other half that is Not her ideal method.
Works for the shop garage in the winter though.

ps. Bought my first mini split in a 24 SEER2 so we are learning slowly, but need to install it.

Energy log about 17 million BTU per ton right? 1 KWH is 3412 btu resistant heat. 17m / 3412 = 4982 KWH * 80% efficient stove is 3985 KWH * 10C per KWH is $398. So you're a little ahead there, pretty close.

If propane is less than about $2.10 a gallon you would be ahead with gas heat and could run a backup gen off it as well.

Heat pumps everywhere are the future though even in cold climates. Would still want backup heat wood being the most reliable especially if you have property and trees. Would probably still want a big propane tank too, I have 90 gallons diesel with a generator in my RV for backup currently through chargeverter, plus wood fireplace but air conditioning is more important here for sure.

 

[Cmiller]

This is a big issue because Sol-Ark doesn't have a working grid down notification built in. I guess they used to but it doesn't work anymore, this is pretty inexcusable.

I have it working using home assistant and get a push notification the instant the grid goes down, it's true you might not notice it otherwise just flicker in the lights.

For most of our customers, if grid goes down, so does their internet connection. So at that point a push notification won't work anyway... I do agree with you though that they should at least have the option for push notifications!

Again there should be multiple push notifications for low battery, 50%, 30% 20% 10% etc, there should be no excuse for this to occur and it would just be a software change.

Yeah, software changes per customer/installer request won't happen with Sol-Ark! I have been asking for a proper gen start menu for a number of years... finally gave up on it. I can't even get bugs fixed, let alone feature requests.

This is why the Gridboss is appealing, you can land heat strips on the smart ports and anything else like that or put them on the non-backed up port, Sol-Ark has the single smart port up to 80 amps I am using for a EV charger.

But if someone happens to have grid outage AND inverter issue, you are out of luck! No inverter equals no can do generator input!

Nope, count me out! The Grid Boss is great in concept/poor in real world scenario!

 

[Cmiller]

Also, as an FYI on the latest "Sol-Ark pains" saga:

The latest iteration (the one with the terrible purple/black dark mode) shows reversed arrows for grid and battery flow of power. It also has terrible relay chatter on generator startup/shutdown when feeding generator into the grid port. (We do this a lot on off-grid installs, so we can use Grid Peak Shave, since Gen Shave doesn't work/isn't supported anymore.)

Also, we are discovering that having Grid Peak Shave enabled causes sever solar production limitations on some installs! Like 50%+ underproduction!

So now we just may need to scrap using Grid Peak Shave altogether and just use Eg4 Chargverters for any and all generators...... kinda sucks for 14kW Kohlers.... stack 2x Chargverters??

If anyone wants to see/hear this relay chatter, if you ask for it, I could maybe start a new thread and show it. Not sure if I can post a video directly, or if I would need to make a YouTube video and link... Maybe someone can inform me of the best option if people want to see/hear it.

 

[jharrell]

For most of our customers, if grid goes down, so does their internet connection. So at that point a push notification won't work anyway... I do agree with you though that they should at least have the option for push notifications!

Thats weird why is that? My cable connection will stay up almost exactly 3 hours because thats their battery backup for the line equipment out on the poles. My modem is on my Sol-Ark like everything else and their headend has generators, last house had fiber thats all passive from house to CO never went out due to power.

A good cloud system would give you a push alert if it lost connection too, I actually have that from a separate system, so if my internet goes away I know wherever I am at, Sol-Ark could easily push a "lost connection to inverter" just like a "Grid Down" push its the advantage of a cloud system.

But if someone happens to have grid outage AND inverter issue, you are out of luck! No inverter equals no can do generator input!

Nope, count me out! The Grid Boss is great in concept/poor in real world scenario!

Would be nice if Gridboss MCU pulled AC power from multiple taps including gen side of gen relay so you could just manually start generator for dark start, don't see any reason it couldn't do this.

Same issue if you use Sol-Ark gen port, not sure why Gridboss is worse here.

The latest iteration (the one with the terrible purple/black dark mode) shows reversed arrows for grid and battery flow of power.

Reverse battery arrow was solved with firmware update when mine was installed in May my installer knew about this one already. I have dark mode too which I kinda like, supposedly another update to "fix" that but not a priority for me because functionally its fine. Sad to hear about gen peak shave, wonder how Gridboss / Flexboss do there, I went with Chargeverter because I wanted to use smart port for EV charger and my RV diesel gen is 120V, would have been nice to have separate dedicated gen port though that supports peak shave and 125 amps.

 

[1201]

Also, as an FYI on the latest "Sol-Ark pains" saga:

The latest iteration (the one with the terrible purple/black dark mode) shows reversed arrows for grid and battery flow of power. It also has terrible relay chatter on generator startup/shutdown when feeding generator into the grid port. (We do this a lot on off-grid installs, so we can use Grid Peak Shave, since Gen Shave doesn't work/isn't supported anymore.)

Also, we are discovering that having Grid Peak Shave enabled causes sever solar production limitations on some installs! Like 50%+ underproduction!

So now we just may need to scrap using Grid Peak Shave altogether and just use Eg4 Chargverters for any and all generators...... kinda sucks for 14kW Kohlers.... stack 2x Chargverters??

If anyone wants to see/hear this relay chatter, if you ask for it, I could maybe start a new thread and show it. Not sure if I can post a video directly, or if I would need to make a YouTube video and link... Maybe someone can inform me of the best option if people want to see/hear it.

would be nice for the world to know. easiest way is to upload to youtube.

 

[Cmiller]

would be nice for the world to know. easiest way is to upload to youtube.

I'll see what I can do. Maybe I'll create a "Installer's view Sol-Ark pains" thread.

Not sure how soon I'll be able to get around to it, but I'll try!

 

[Cmiller]

Thats weird why is that? My cable connection will stay up almost exactly 3 hours because thats their battery backup for the line equipment out on the poles. My modem is on my Sol-Ark like everything else and their headend has generators, last house had fiber thats all passive from house to CO never went out due to power.

Interesting! I feel like internet connection has tended to be out any time our customers call during grid outage. But then again, maybe I am completely wrong on that! It would make sense for the servers, etc. to have backup....

I do know that our internet at the shop went out the other day at the same time the power went off locally! (We didn't "feel" the power outage. Shop is off-grid. )

A good cloud system would give you a push alert if it lost connection too, I actually have that from a separate system, so if my internet goes away I know wherever I am at, Sol-Ark could easily push a "lost connection to inverter" just like a "Grid Down" push its the advantage of a cloud system.

Would be nice if Gridboss MCU pulled AC power from multiple taps including gen side of gen relay so you could just manually start generator for dark start, don't see any reason it couldn't do this.

I agree.

Same issue if you use Sol-Ark gen port, not sure why Gridboss is worse here.

Good point! I hadn't really thought about that!

Reverse battery arrow was solved with firmware update when mine was installed in May my installer knew about this one already. I have dark mode too which I kinda like, supposedly another update to "fix" that but not a priority for me because functionally its fine.

What is interesting is that the firmware that shows on the latest 15K's is the exact same firmware version/number as it's been for a year+.

Obviously the screen is different hardware or something. But what firmware is actually getting changed for this fix?? And why are we continuing to see it for a few months now? Sol-Ark should fix issues like this before they hit the "street"! It isn't practical for us to have to call Sol-Ark and ask for a firmware update on every last Sol-Ark we install! Most of our installs don't even have an internet connection onsite! And firmware updates happen anywhere from 5 minutes to 5 hours after being requested.... So we would need to leave a hotspot onsite, warn the customer that they will have a power outage, and later go back to retrieve our hotspot. It's just a really annoying situation all-around for us!

 

[Quattrohead]

Also, as an FYI on the latest "Sol-Ark pains" saga:

What are you doing differently from Scott whereby you get issues and all of his installs are perfect?

 

[Quattrohead]

If anyone wants to see/hear this relay chatter, if you ask for it, I could maybe start a new thread and show it. Not sure if I can post a video directly, or if I would need to make a YouTube video and link... Maybe someone can inform me of the best option if people want to see/hear it.

In the interest of science and not to slag off Solark, I would like to see it. If you have the YouTube app on your phone that is by far the easiest way to share it.