diy solar

diy solar

Enphase w/ Victron

tanoshimini

Solar Enthusiast
Joined
Mar 28, 2021
Messages
110
Hey all!

I'm looking to to use the Enphase IQ7/7+ and their Envoy with my Victron Quattro 15k/230/200, in an AC coupled setup -- I will not be connected to the grid.

The Victron will live at a location roughly between two buildings, and will be used to create a micro-grid (at 240v/60Hz single-phase). Each building will have it's own autotransformer that will create 120v split phase to feed their respective main panels.

Questions:
  • My understanding is that the Victron has an installable assistant that can manage the frequency shifting necessary to control these units. Has anyone played with this?
  • Is it possible to place the Enphase Envoy on the 240v side of the autotransformer?
  • Do I need to get a different model # Envoy, depending on which side of the autotransformer it plugs into?
  • If I install on the main-panel side of the autotransformer, will I need another Envoy if I install more panels in another location on the same micro-grid?
  • What would the best micro-inverter "grid profile" to use for a setup like this? (Though, I suppose that depends on the answers to some of the above.)
Thanks for taking a minute to think about my project! ?
 
Hey all!

I'm looking to to use the Enphase IQ7/7+ and their Envoy with my Victron Quattro 15k/230/200, in an AC coupled setup -- I will not be connected to the grid.

The Victron will live at a location roughly between two buildings, and will be used to create a micro-grid (at 240v/60Hz single-phase). Each building will have it's own autotransformer that will create 120v split phase to feed their respective main panels.

Questions:
  • My understanding is that the Victron has an installable assistant that can manage the frequency shifting necessary to control these units. Has anyone played with this?
  • Is it possible to place the Enphase Envoy on the 240v side of the autotransformer?
  • Do I need to get a different model # Envoy, depending on which side of the autotransformer it plugs into?
  • If I install on the main-panel side of the autotransformer, will I need another Envoy if I install more panels in another location on the same micro-grid?
  • What would the best micro-inverter "grid profile" to use for a setup like this? (Though, I suppose that depends on the answers to some of the above.)
Thanks for taking a minute to think about my project! ?
I'd like to know the same things. Since we WERE going to be getting solar panels with Enphase IQ7/7+ I'm interested in verifying the same points you have listed. Looks like our solar install is off till Solar Reward money comes back in 2022... perhaps by that time we'll get answers, and if REAL luck, I'll get IQ8's.
 
I'd like to know the same things. Since we WERE going to be getting solar panels with Enphase IQ7/7+ I'm interested in verifying the same points you have listed. Looks like our solar install is off till Solar Reward money comes back in 2022... perhaps by that time we'll get answers, and if REAL luck, I'll get IQ8's.
Awesome! I hope the IQ8’s come out soon, too... because it’ll make the 7-series that much cheaper. The 8’s big advantages seem to be around the fact that it can be setup to better deal with “grid down” situations. In our setup, because our inverter will always be “the grid,” we don’t see that new feature as terribly useful. There don’t seem to be many other improvements (efficiency, etc.) that will be of much use to us, so I’d happily take the 7’s at a lower price! ?
 
UPDATE: I ordered one IQ7+ and an IQ Combiner to use with a 375w panel we have that’s idle (due to our impending move). That’s pretty much the minimal system possible, and I should be able to answer a number of the questions that I laid out above. If it doesn’t work out, the expensive bit (the combiner) is returnable within 30 days. If it does, then all that’s left is to buy more IQ7+ units.
 
hope your project and move both go well.

interested to hear how your IQ7+Victron Quattro 15k/230/200 setup goes.

cheers ☮️
 
What would the best micro-inverter "grid profile" to use for a setup like this? (Though, I suppose that depends on the answers to some of the above.)
I've been looking for a while for what those grid-profiles mean without any luck. It might be something you have to play with. Possibly what the Tesla integrations use?
 
Tomorrow, I'll put together a one-panel Enphase IQ7+ system and wire that up to the Victron. We'll see if that's going to work out the way that I think. Fingers crossed.
 
I've been looking for a while for what those grid-profiles mean without any luck. It might be something you have to play with. Possibly what the Tesla integrations use?
Basically, they’re the allowable frequency ranges, voltage ranges, thresholds for disconnection, etc. for the local grid. After much thought and research... I don’t think it’s really going to matter too much, as whichever I end up choosing (some ISO standard, probably), I’ll configure the Victron to match and that’ll be that.
 
Tomorrow, I'll put together a one-panel Enphase IQ7+ system and wire that up to the Victron. We'll see if that's going to work out the way that I think. Fingers crossed.
looking forward to the results as this is what i am wanting to do,but gor now i am thinking of just wiring my micro inverters straight to thr main panel via a breaker
 
Okay, here's what I tested today:

Experiment-1:

Setup: A Victron 15k/230/200 that I set to 240v/60Hz single phase. I connected it's Output-1 directly to the L1-L2 of an Enphase IQ Combiner. I placed one 20-amp breaker on the combiner, and wired that directly to the red/black of a Q-cable with one IQ7+ (connected to a 375w Bifacial panel). The IQ Combiner and the IQ7+ were both new-in-box, unconfigured.

Result: The IQ7+'s LED lit up with a blinking red, indicating that it was receiving power, "The AC grid is either not present or not within specification." -- according to the manual. No lights on the IQ Combiner at all.

Analysis: I looked over all of the connections, and I noticed that the IQCombiner's Envoy circuit board had a wire that led over to the unconnected (remember, this is single-phase 240v) "neutral" bus bar. My suspicion is that the power supply for the built-in Envoy runs on 120v, and that's why no lights were showing.

Experiment-2:

Setup: Same setup/config as Experiment-1, but I put the Autotransformer between the inverter and the IQ Combiner. The autotransformer was setup to produce 120/240v split phase, and created a neutral that could then be supplied to the IQ Combiner.

Result: Same red blinking lights on the IQ7+, but now, I had red blinking lights on the built-in Envoy as well! Progress! After a few minutes, the Envoy finished booting and I was able to press the "AP mode" button and get a green light. The IQ7+ started blinking orange, indicating that "The AC grid is normal but there is no communication with the Envoy." After a minute or two, the IQ7+ began to flash green, "Normal operation. AC grid function is normal there is communication with the Envoy."

At this point, I pulled out my phone and opened the Enphase Installer's Toolkit and was able to connect to the Envoy, update it's firmware / grid profiles and finish provisioning the one IQ7+. It took longer and was more complicated that it probably needed to, because I have really terrible cell reception at the site and no other way to connect to the Internet.

Analysis:
  • It appears that I was correct about the IQ Combiner's built-in Envoy being powered by 120v. Going back, and reviewing the schematics for the autotransformer confirmed this suspicion: L1 and L2 are essentially pass-through (they run through a DPDT breaker), with the windings producing a neutral.
  • My suspicion is that I could put a very small 240v -> 120v power supply inside the housing of the IQ combiner, and wire it directly to the Envoy's terminal block and then it wouldn't matter "which side" of the autotransformer the combiner is connected.
  • I believe that the "Powerline Communication" that the Envoy uses to talk to the IQ7+ will also work on "either side" of the autotransformer, since L1-L2 are pass-through.
After configuration, I was able to witness that my battery was charging with power produced by the panel. After adjusting the panel to point directly at the sun, I saw that it was producing ~380w, of which ~280w were being pushed back into the battery. I imagine the difference is the self-consumption of the Envoy (~8w) as well as the Quattro (~80w). Were I to wire up a second panel, I'd expect that the full production of that panel would be pushed back -- I'll test this once I receive a second IQ7+.

So, to answer my own questions (from above):
  • My understanding is that the Victron has an installable assistant that can manage the frequency shifting necessary to control these units. Has anyone played with this?
This is the case, provided you are not connected to the grid -- it seems the Quattro is only capable of managing the frequency if it is operating in "Island mode." I was able to connect my computer using the MK3-usb cable and install the "PV assistant." I artificially lowered the top-end voltage configured for the battery and witnessed that the Quattro produced a frequency shift that turned off the IQ7+. (I'll play with it further to determine if I can do better than just "on/off" in the near future, but for now "on/off" is sufficient to my purposes.)

  • Is it possible to place the Enphase Envoy on the 240v side of the autotransformer?
Yes.

  • Do I need to get a different model # Envoy, depending on which side of the autotransformer it plugs into?
Kind of. The IQ Combiner seems to only come in a US model, and the built-in Envoy PCB is powered by 120v. If you put the IQ Combiner on the split-phase side of an auto transformer, you have a neutral / 120v and it will "just work."

I have not tested this, but it's very likely to work: If you put it on the 240v-single phase side, then it seems you need to purchase and install a small 240v-120v power supply and adjust the internal wiring to accommodate it. I will order the necessary power supply and report my results.

  • If I install on the main-panel side of the autotransformer, will I need another Envoy if I install more panels in another location on the same micro-grid?
No. It appears that since the "Powerline Communication" only involves L1-L2, there's no interruption of communication, and it seems that you could put IQ7's on both sides of an autotransformer and it would not cause a problem.

  • What would the best micro-inverter "grid profile" to use for a setup like this? (Though, I suppose that depends on the answers to some of the above.)
It does not seem to matter. You can choose a grid profile and configure the Victron to produce power within those specifications*.

*provided that you are not connected to the grid.
 
this gives me hope that i can hook up my aims micro inverters by running both 110 legs to a breaker box powered by a growatt
 
I am curious as to where you saw the 380 watts being produced by your panel? The IQ7+ is rated at 295 watts and my home system might see 300 peak on my 340 watt panels. I suspect that you are clipping and that is a major part of the difference.... If you wanted to get more than 295 w you would need to purchase the more expensive IQ7A....
 
I am curious as to where you saw the 380 watts being produced by your panel? The IQ7+ is rated at 295 watts and my home system might see 300 peak on my 340 watt panels. I suspect that you are clipping and that is a major part of the difference.
You make a solid point. This experiment was purely a PoC. I was looking at the numbers coming off the Victron Inverter, through the BT dongle and Victron Connect. I was giddy enough that it all worked together at alI and didn't investigate any further.... and nothing has been calibrated at this point. Next time I have it all hooked back up, I'll make sure to do a more thorough check of the numbers.

If you wanted to get more than 295 w you would need to purchase the more expensive IQ7A....
Kind of, maybe. That all depends on some things:
  • The panel will lose capacity over time -- A ~370 watt panel will be a ~300-330ish watt panel in 20 years, depending on the module.
  • You almost never see a lot of peak capacity from a panel, because those numbers come from the "Standard Testing Conditions." In the really-real world, panels get dusty, aren't perfectly positioned at all times (or times of year), they get hot, etc. etc. A better number for expected production will come from looking up the NMOT or NOCT values for the panel. (A good quick-n-dirty rule of thumb, though, would be to just de-rate the panel by 20%)
  • Inverters have an efficiency curve. My understanding is that the IQ line likes to run "more fully loaded" -- though, I can't find a link to that at the moment. (Add grains of salt accordingly.)
  • Low-light panels will catch more light at the beginning and end of the day than the panel will spend at peak. Especially where I live.
So (for me) the choice came down to:
  • I found an outstanding deal on two pallets (54) of brand new Hyundai HiA-S 370w panels, at $135/each. (1/2 cut, 72, low light, 40mm centerline-reinforced frames.)
  • I'll be needing 50+ IQ units, and the 7A is easily ~$20/unit more expensive... So an additional $1k up front for a hard-to-measure initial gain that would certainly fade over time.
  • The "sweet spot" for a 7+ seems to be with around 360-380w panels.
  • I'm in Maine, so I'm just not going to get a lot of peak time, no matter what I do... especially in the winter. I need more panels, with good low-light performance.
Anyway, that's how I came to my decision. YMMV.
 
You make a solid point. This experiment was purely a PoC. I was looking at the numbers coming off the Victron Inverter, through the BT dongle and Victron Connect. I was giddy enough that it all worked together at alI and didn't investigate any further.... and nothing has been calibrated at this point. Next time I have it all hooked back up, I'll make sure to do a more thorough check of the numbers.


Kind of, maybe. That all depends on some things:
  • The panel will lose capacity over time -- A ~370 watt panel will be a ~300-330ish watt panel in 20 years, depending on the module.
  • You almost never see a lot of peak capacity from a panel, because those numbers come from the "Standard Testing Conditions." In the really-real world, panels get dusty, aren't perfectly positioned at all times (or times of year), they get hot, etc. etc. A better number for expected production will come from looking up the NMOT or NOCT values for the panel. (A good quick-n-dirty rule of thumb, though, would be to just de-rate the panel by 20%)
  • Inverters have an efficiency curve. My understanding is that the IQ line likes to run "more fully loaded" -- though, I can't find a link to that at the moment. (Add grains of salt accordingly.)
  • Low-light panels will catch more light at the beginning and end of the day than the panel will spend at peak. Especially where I live.
So (for me) the choice came down to:
  • I found an outstanding deal on two pallets (54) of brand new Hyundai HiA-S 370w panels, at $135/each. (1/2 cut, 72, low light, 40mm centerline-reinforced frames.)
  • I'll be needing 50+ IQ units, and the 7A is easily ~$20/unit more expensive... So an additional $1k up front for a hard-to-measure initial gain that would certainly fade over time.
  • The "sweet spot" for a 7+ seems to be with around 360-380w panels.
  • I'm in Maine, so I'm just not going to get a lot of peak time, no matter what I do... especially in the winter. I need more panels, with good low-light performance.
Anyway, that's how I came to my decision. YMMV.
Sorry if I came across hard at all... Was just thinking in the theoretical absolutes...(after digesting Cinergi's thread)
Your spot on especially for your location. Here in Texas with 340 watt panels, I see clipping for 2-3 hours on the sunniest of days with the IQ7+... But is it really worth it to get IQ7A's for the additional cost? I am not sure it would yield enough over the life of the system to justify the additional $$...

As I am in the process of purchasing a new 5th wheel, this thread (and others like it) are of great interest as I would love the autonomy of an islanded Solar + Storage system... Learning alot about the Victron units...

Walter
 
Sorry if I came across hard at all... Was just thinking in the theoretical absolutes...(after digesting Cinergi's thread)
No worries. An idea just isn't good unless it can survive having someone punch holes in it.

Your spot on especially for your location. Here in Texas with 340 watt panels, I see clipping for 2-3 hours on the sunniest of days with the IQ7+... But is it really worth it to get IQ7A's for the additional cost? I am not sure it would yield enough over the life of the system to justify the additional $$...
Yeah, I don't think it's worth the money... Or the wait, in the case of the IQ8.

As I am in the process of purchasing a new 5th wheel, this thread (and others like it) are of great interest as I would love the autonomy of an islanded Solar + Storage system... Learning alot about the Victron units...
Victron makes solid toys, for sure. They're more expensive than the Chinese inverters that seem to be all the rage, but I've never had a problem with one that wasn't my fault.
 
Back
Top