diy solar

diy solar

Entire structure of small ground mount array needs to be UL listed? WTF?

I've recently discovered that a representative in my state floated a bill to tax ALL solar panels. The goal of this is obvious - revenue! There is however, an argument to be made that as solar proliferates the revenue of your local utility will drop while his opertational cost continue to rise. There will be a tipping point where this will become a problem. As with water that comes from the heavens and falls upon your roof in some states is NOT yours so shall be deemed the sun at some point. :(
I ran in to a lot of similar Code Oridances in my NC county. Insanity. To ground mount, mine has to even have a 6 foot screen around it.

I agree something smells foul about this. Like, I'm in a coastal area where some vacationers only come once every couple years; yet, they must pay the power company base fee to keep it active. Kinda odd how nobody uses solar. Well now I know why.

I ended up been buying an AIMs converter (UL Listed) then hooking to a generator to charge my battery banks. I did find a website that only sells UL Listed panels. Just haven't gotten there yet.

Oh and get this: I found a piece of wire my power company uses and its NOT UL Listed... aluminum crap. Of course every wire I use must have UL stamp.

I'm determined to get all this right though even considering roof mounting instead... new panels are packing a wholap now.

Note: it can be done. Watch out for the ignorant code officers. Read all thw ordinances yourself and I suggest having them at hand.
 
To ground mount, mine has to even have a 6 foot screen around it.

Reading all these things makes me so happy not to have to deal with this. Here in Finland in 2017 they waved the need for a building permit for a ground mount. There are some basic guidelines to follow, such as not changing the landscape drastically (i.e., cut an entire forest down to put a large solar plant) and not annoying your neighbors (putting panels on the border and reflecting light through their windows), but otherwise you can pretty much do as you need. That's why I was able to put my own ground mounts up that don't even use rails:

 
The NEC is getting way out of line. No common sense or concern for costs, just dream it up. When I first tested back in the very Early 1970's the Code book made a lot of sense and it was only perhaps a inch thick. Now nobody can really tell you what a lot of sections are all about... and the PV and Storage ones are so complex and Not needed for the most part, some are just plain wrong.
 
The NEC is getting way out of line. No common sense or concern for costs, just dream it up. When I first tested back in the very Early 1970's the Code book made a lot of sense and it was only perhaps a inch thick. Now nobody can really tell you what a lot of sections are all about... and the PV and Storage ones are so complex and Not needed for the most part, some are just plain wrong.
It's like anything else over time touched by a large organization, whether it be private or government. It will grow uncontrollably and frequently be changed for no other reason than job preservation.

Look at software development, companies like Microsoft take a once functional product like Outlook, and somehow turn it into a bloated mess that can't even manage to download emails from an exchange server without having to close the application and restart it. The whole point of the program and its claim to fame is to sync up with exchange servers.

Or consider some of the websites you go to, business to business ones, they will change things around, causing everybody that uses the website for their business to have to change their workflow and programs that depend on that API.. and for what? No reason I can see other than to keep the programmers and management of that company working on something, anything, to stay employed.

Then you get into government and regulatory stuff, and they always expand endlessly. Why not, the money to fund them is infinite (in their eyes) and gets extracted from us whether we approve of it or not. It's like a snowball rolling downhill. For the life of me, I can't think of a time when taxes ever really significantly went down without being replaced by something else government related going up to compensate. Or a law/regulation being removed without being replaced by two new ones just for good measure.

People need jobs to pay their bills, and to grow/expand our economies, but not every job is full of useful work 100% of the time, but something will get done to "justify" those jobs.

Now I sound like a cranky old libertarian, thanks guys! :mad:
 
The NEC is getting way out of line. No common sense or concern for costs, just dream it up. When I first tested back in the very Early 1970's the Code book made a lot of sense and it was only perhaps a inch thick. Now nobody can really tell you what a lot of sections are all about... and the PV and Storage ones are so complex and Not needed for the most part, some are just plain wrong.
The (over) regulation started with a series of explosions and fires at abandoned telecom facilities after the dotcom crash due to thermal runaway of FLA batteries that were left charging by landlords.

There was a real problem that needed to be addressed, and it was. Enter Li-Ion chemistry and well publicized structure and vehi fires, and you got another round.

The rules are often hapha and lazy, but it is because they are trying to apply a framework to new, (relatively) fast-changing technology in a prescriptive framework.

For sure a few changes have had insufficient cost-benefit analysis done, and were overly influenced by manufacturers. Other things were mostly done with good intention but too slow to adapt. Batteries with exposed wiring (or in insulated, exposed busbars--the horror!) is an easy example: The rest of the code does not allow it, so how do you justify the practice in this case?
 
I've recently discovered that a representative in my state floated a bill to tax ALL solar panels. The goal of this is obvious - revenue! There is however, an argument to be made that as solar proliferates the revenue of your local utility will drop while his opertational cost continue to rise. There will be a tipping point where this will become a problem. As with water that comes from the heavens and falls upon your roof in some states is NOT yours so shall be deemed the sun at some point. :(
I hope y'all vote that "representative" out of office ASAP. Taxing solar panels (other than say a sales tax at time of purchase) would be akin to taxing vegetables grown in a backyard garden.
 
The NEC group is NOT a government agency it is a private non-profit that is un-regulated and makes up its own rules as it goes. Until the past 20 years or so it served a useful function, now its influenced by a lot of industry partners who put profit ahead of common sense.
 
You think the ground mount ordinances are fun? Wait until you dig into the roof mount garbage.
I hear ya. From reading my ordinances (like I said read them so some idiot doesn't add crap), in my county (Brunswick, NC), I THINK it might be less complicated. Of course all wiring must be UL Listed w/ stamp... oh and I ran into specific UL # requirements. Like off- grid inverter was UL 1748 vs UL 458... something to do with ground. Whatever rt. Those inverters cost bout 5x the 458s & harder to find.

I seriously hope you work this out. My crazy county is aarghh. Wish I had better advice. All I can offer is comfort that I feel your pain.
 
The NEC group is NOT a government agency it is a private non-profit that is un-regulated and makes up its own rules as it goes. Until the past 20 years or so it served a useful function, now its influenced by a lot of industry partners who put profit ahead of common sense.
I wanted to add: so you are for sure ground mounting? Asking because I really want to do that also... offers more room and flexibility. Roof mounting seems more restrictive and my roof isn't angled South; although, I understand running in parallel alleviates issue of one shaded panel dragging down entire array.

Anyway, I'm glad for your post because its motivated me to complete my project. FYI, my setup is hilarious: code says must have 3 outlets inside. I printed what it said and put 3 UL GCFI outlets right BUT they aren't connected to anything... just there. HAHA thats what it says... didnt say must be connected to grid. Implication is there but not worded.

I'm also not hip on roof mounted because of possible roof leakage. I'm in a major hurricane zone with extreme high winds often. The humidity is way high causing dust and pollen to stick... meaning cleaning panels a lot required.

I will come back with that great website for you.
 
The NEC group is NOT a government agency it is a private non-profit that is un-regulated and makes up its own rules as it goes.
I understand that, but when a state or local authority adopts a NEC suggestion that wording becomes the law in that jurisdiction. Each jurisdiction can add or delete sections and provide their own interpretations.
 
The (over) regulation started with a series of explosions and fires at abandoned telecom facilities after the dotcom crash due to thermal runaway of FLA batteries that were left charging by landlords.

There was a real problem that needed to be addressed, and it was. Enter Li-Ion chemistry and well publicized structure and vehi fires, and you got another round.

The rules are often hapha and lazy, but it is because they are trying to apply a framework to new, (relatively) fast-changing technology in a prescriptive framework.

For sure a few changes have had insufficient cost-benefit analysis done, and were overly influenced by manufacturers. Other things were mostly done with good intention but too slow to adapt. Batteries with exposed wiring (or in insulated, exposed busbars--the horror!) is an easy example: The rest of the code does not allow it, so how do you justify the practice in this case?
I've been told a lot of ordinances were kinda thrown out there to heed off an anticipated solar movement. Problem in my area is appears no one went back and updated them. Wind power became super popular here.

Seems there is absolutely no universal standard except the required main disconnect... my understanding is that stemmed from a house burning completely down because fire fighters couldn't shut off electric so stopped.

I do not want any sort of fire risk (went through my house burning down - not electrical) so understand some. Aggravates me big time power company isn't held to same restrictions. Seriously cheap aluminum wiring used here.
 
The (over) regulation started with a series of explosions and fires at abandoned telecom facilities after the dotcom crash due to thermal runaway of FLA batteries that were left charging by landlords.

There was a real problem that needed to be addressed, and it was. Enter Li-Ion chemistry and well publicized structure and vehi fires, and you got another round.

The rules are often hapha and lazy, but it is because they are trying to apply a framework to new, (relatively) fast-changing technology in a prescriptive framework.

For sure a few changes have had insufficient cost-benefit analysis done, and were overly influenced by manufacturers. Other things were mostly done with good intention but too slow to adapt. Batteries with exposed wiring (or in insulated, exposed busbars--the horror!) is an easy example: The rest of the code does not allow it, so how do you justify the practice in this case?
Irony is there is no requirement on solar batteries here. If they did that then would shut down probably all cars. Btw, batteries were only thing not UL required in my area.
 
It's like anything else over time touched by a large organization, whether it be private or government. It will grow uncontrollably and frequently be changed for no other reason than job preservation.

Look at software development, companies like Microsoft take a once functional product like Outlook, and somehow turn it into a bloated mess that can't even manage to download emails from an exchange server without having to close the application and restart it. The whole point of the program and its claim to fame is to sync up with exchange servers.

Or consider some of the websites you go to, business to business ones, they will change things around, causing everybody that uses the website for their business to have to change their workflow and programs that depend on that API.. and for what? No reason I can see other than to keep the programmers and management of that company working on something, anything, to stay employed.

Then you get into government and regulatory stuff, and they always expand endlessly. Why not, the money to fund them is infinite (in their eyes) and gets extracted from us whether we approve of it or not. It's like a snowball rolling downhill. For the life of me, I can't think of a time when taxes ever really significantly went down without being replaced by something else government related going up to compensate. Or a law/regulation being removed without being replaced by two new ones just for good measure.

People need jobs to pay their bills, and to grow/expand our economies, but not every job is full of useful work 100% of the time, but something will get done to "justify" those jobs.

Now I sound like a cranky old libertarian, thanks guys! :mad:
Hey, I was even called a 'Karen' for being 'cranky' after running in to bunch Code Ordinances. Seriously ridiculous ones... especially concerning ground mounting. Codes on actual panels I understand and the wiring but come on... requiring frame stamped, screened in, etc... Many folk want to weld a frame and make it mobile. Not here.
 
Reading all these things makes me so happy not to have to deal with this. Here in Finland in 2017 they waved the need for a building permit for a ground mount. There are some basic guidelines to follow, such as not changing the landscape drastically (i.e., cut an entire forest down to put a large solar plant) and not annoying your neighbors (putting panels on the border and reflecting light through their windows), but otherwise you can pretty much do as you need. That's why I was able to put my own ground mounts up that don't even use rails:

Ok now I want to move to Finland. LOL. A 'permit' is required for every step here. Well when you DIY. Hire solar contractor then bam but junky. I really don't think any of them know anything about... well anything.

In this case, a person just wanted to make a ground mount frame... like I did also want btw.

It all comes down to everybody wanting their hand in the pie. Money for this, money for that, etc etc etc

I'm a highend Electrical Engineer but the amount of research its taken to follow Code has been insane. I found more reasonably priced items but wow the time consumed to do so was crazy.
 
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