Epoch 12V/460Ah IP67 after two months. Balancing: Oof!

[outboard1196]

Well, looks like I'm one of the lucky contestants who gets a Windows tablet with special software shipped to me in order to clean up my battery firmware.

I conveyed to him that this should have been a button in the app that just does everything for us and does not allow any kind of room for user error. He agreed, and informed me that is what he told his superiors as well. I told him to forward my comments and contact info, and I'll happily explain the situation to them. I also complained about the balancing circuit only balancing to within 30mV instead of 5 or 10mV, and that the cells were more than 160mV out of balance new, and I had to spend more than 100 hours balancing it initially.

I'm hoping to gain some back-end knowledge about this battery, so I can adjust it to my needs. But if the stupid issue with the battery cutting off at 14.0V is resolved, as I understand it to be in this firmware update, I'll be pretty happy with Epoch and this battery, finally.

Please keep us updated! I'd love the password to communicate to the BMS through the app.
You have to return the tablet ?

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

You have to return the tablet ?

LOL, I was going to ask that. But forgot before we ended the call. Would be pretty nice to have a little Windows tablet on hand, since all the computers in my home are Mac or Linux.

 

[outboard1196]

LOL, I was going to ask that. But forgot before we ended the call. Would be pretty nice to have a little Windows tablet on hand, since all the computers in my home are Mac or Linux.

I guess if it doesn't come with a return lable... Lol

 

[Rocksnsalt]

Thank you to @Koyaanisqatsi for your detailed feedback on this battery, and thanks to others on this thread as well.
This thread of experiences with the Epoch has me really looking for other 12v/460ah options.
Well made batteries but some real glitches/flaws in actually working correctly.
Seems odd for a company with the background Roypow / Epoch has.
Hopefully the V2 solves all this.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Thank you to @Koyaanisqatsi for your detailed feedback on this battery, and thanks to others on this thread as well.
This thread of experiences with the Epoch has me really looking for other 12v/460ah options.
Well made batteries but some real glitches/flaws in actually working correctly.
Seems odd for a company with the background Roypow / Epoch has.
Hopefully the V2 solves all this.

I would expect that a new V1 460Ah would be better than what I experienced, assuming they are now being shipped with later firmware. Apparently the latest firmware update fixes at least some of the issues we have been experiencing with these batteries. I'll know more when I get mine updated. The performance of the battery and its capacity have been great. Balancing issues are really a "getting settled in" issue, and I think the manufacturer should put a bit more into that, as mine was WAY out of balance. But at least that problem can be addressed by the user (tho it takes a long time) and we don't have to just live with cell OV and UV alerts.

But a key thing is now that the V2 is coming out, watch for sales on the V1. If the firmware does fix the issues, those sales could be a great deal.

 

[outboard1196]

Thank you to @Koyaanisqatsi for your detailed feedback on this battery, and thanks to others on this thread as well.
This thread of experiences with the Epoch has me really looking for other 12v/460ah options.
Well made batteries but some real glitches/flaws in actually working correctly.
Seems odd for a company with the background Roypow / Epoch has.
Hopefully the V2 solves all this.

I have the new v2 and did the update, it hasn't tripped ov protection when charging to 14.2v daily. Only about 7 cycles and when I checked 2 days ago balancing at 14.2 was .038v not great but hopefully will improve

 

[Rocksnsalt]

I would expect that a new V1 460Ah would be better than what I experienced, assuming they are now being shipped with later firmware. Apparently the latest firmware update fixes at least some of the issues we have been experiencing with these batteries. I'll know more when I get mine updated. The performance of the battery and its capacity have been great. Balancing issues are really a "getting settled in" issue, and I think the manufacturer should put a bit more into that, as mine was WAY out of balance. But at least that problem can be addressed by the user (tho it takes a long time) and we don't have to just live with cell OV and UV alerts.

But a key thing is now that the V2 is coming out, watch for sales on the V1. If the firmware does fix the issues, those sales could be a great deal.

They had 15% off over the holidays and a bit beyond, then the 15% discount went away and the V2 appeared on the Epoch site. So they may have sold them out… but just a guess.

And here I thought they were in the holiday spirit…

 

[outboard1196]

They had 15% off over the holidays and a bit beyond, then the 15% discount went away and the V2 appeared on the Epoch site. So they may have sold them out… but just a guess.

And here I thought they were in the holiday spirit…

Yeah I used the forum 10% off then the next week was the 15% off

 

[outboard1196]

@Koyaanisqatsi
Do you get soc descriptency between the BMS and smart shunt? Doing a test now and the BMS says 50% and smart shunt says 59%

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

@Koyaanisqatsi
Do you get soc descriptency between the BMS and smart shunt? Doing a test now and the BMS says 50% and smart shunt says 59%

I can't really judge to total accuracy of the BMS SoC value, because it immediately was a problem that the BMS doesn't detect any current at all below 1.3A, which means it's not detecting the load at all more than 75% of the time. My idle current is between 1.2 and 1.3A, so after a week of draining, my Victron shunt will show 50% SoC while the BMS shows 85%.

If I had an idle load above 1.3A, I could measure the BMS vs shunt accuracy.

It's ridiculous to make a BMS that simply doesn't detect current lower than such a high threshold. It reminds me of Honda cars from the '70s and '80s: small cars built for small people. The headrest hits me in the shoulders - just because I'm 6'3" tall shouldn't mean I can't drive a small car. Just because it's a large capacity battery, doesn't meant it's always going to be used for large capacity loads.

 

[outboard1196]

I can't really judge to total accuracy of the BMS SoC value, because it immediately was a problem that the BMS doesn't detect any current at all below 1.3A, which means it's not detecting the load at all more than 75% of the time. My idle current is between 1.2 and 1.3A, so after a week of draining, my Victron shunt will show 50% SoC while the BMS shows 85%.

If I had an idle load above 1.3A, I could measure the BMS vs shunt accuracy.

It's ridiculous to make a BMS that simply doesn't detect current lower than such a high threshold. It reminds me of Honda cars from the '70s and '80s: small cars built for small people. The headrest hits me in the shoulders - just because I'm 6'3" tall shouldn't mean I can't drive a small car. Just because it's a large capacity battery, doesn't meant it's always going to be used for large capacity loads.

I do have small loads around 3A, I trust the smart shunt more but it's close to 10% off.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

I do have small loads around 3A, I trust the smart shunt more but it's close to 10% off.

Are you able to verify that accuracy? I expect the Victron shunts to be within 1% - they're advertised as 0.3% accuracy. I don't have a way to verify which is more accurate in my system. I've just made the assumption that a well-known, high-quality brand is going to be more accurate than whatever BMS comes in a battery that is OEM'd from an off-beat Chinese manufacturer.

 

[outboard1196]

Are you able to verify that accuracy? I expect the Victron shunts to be within 1% - they're advertised as 0.3% accuracy. I don't have a way to verify which is more accurate in my system. I've just made the assumption that a well-known, high-quality brand is going to be more accurate than whatever BMS comes in a battery that is OEM'd from an off-beat Chinese manufacturer.

Verify how? Make sure the current (A) reading on the shunt is correct?

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Verify how? Make sure the current (A) reading on the shunt is correct?

Ya, I'm not really sure. It wasn't a challenge, but rather a hopeful prod for how-to information.

 

[outboard1196]

Ya, I'm not really sure. It wasn't a challenge, but rather a hopeful prod for how-to information.

I can check it against my fluke meter, I'm open to suggestions on how to. I haven't had issues with this shunt in the past, just switched the system from fla to lifepo4. I also don't like the voltage difference.

 

[seneysolar]

Reading all this on a $1800 battery makes me shake my head. You shouldn't have these problems at this price point.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

I can check it against my fluke meter, I'm open to suggestions on how to. I haven't had issues with this shunt in the past, just switched the system from fla to lifepo4. I also don't like the voltage difference.

That voltage diff is actually a nice tool to easily see when your BMS is doing things with the charge and discharge MOSFETS. If your shunt reads 13-14+V, but your BMS reads only 12-13V volts, that means the discharge FETs are off and the battery is probably not discharging at all. It can also mean the charge FETs are off, and while the battery is discharging fine, the FETs are dropping the voltage a bit. Once the charge FETs turn back on, your BMS and shunt voltages should be very close. And the BMS should be a few mV lower than the shunt while charging and a few mV higher when discharging, because there is a bit of circuitry between the two measurements.

 

[outboard1196]

That voltage diff is actually a nice tool to easily see when your BMS is doing things with the charge and discharge MOSFETS. If your shunt reads 13-14+V, but your BMS reads only 12-13V volts, that means the discharge FETs are off and the battery is probably not discharging at all. It can also mean the charge FETs are off, and while the battery is discharging fine, the FETs are dropping the voltage a bit. Once the charge FETs turn back on, your BMS and shunt voltages should be very close. And the BMS should be a few mV lower than the shunt while charging and a few mV higher when discharging, because there is a bit of circuitry between the two measurements.

I wonder if the BMS is using a voltage table instead of measuring current to determine soc?

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

I wonder if the BMS is using a voltage table instead of measuring current to determine soc?

Ya, I wonder the same thing about SoC sometimes. It really should be as easy as measuring volts and amps frequently and doing some math to get actual energy usage. But it seems like some products are not doing that. Voltage is a terrible way to measure. But it's a great determining factor for full charge and discharge state. I prefer to act upon the highest and lowest cell voltage though, not the pack voltage.

 

[Rocksnsalt]

100% agree with @seneysolar - at this price point there should not be these problems to sort out!
Two of these were looking like my #1 choice for my Sprinter build but after seeing this stuff and a less than ideal email response from Epoch re a few questions I had about their V2 changes I’m starting to look elsewhere. For less $.
Shame because the build quality and “features” just flat look superior.

That said, they do have 10% off right now.
Coupon code USA10

Note the new 24V and 48V offerings in the same form factor.
The 48V version appears to be neutered at 100AH/ 5.12KWH vs the 5.88KWH of the 24 and 12V models.
The 48V is $100 less, but I’d rather have the WH given a choice.

I wonder if @Will Prowse will be testing these anytime soon, or any of the other 12V/460ah offerings out there? Hopefully.

12V 460Ah V2 Elite Series - Heated & Bluetooth & Victron Comms LiFePO4 Battery

- LiFePO4 Chemistry- HEATED - Internal heating allows for charging in sub-zero conditions- BLUETOOTH - iOS and Android Apps- Built-in Smart Battery Management System (BMS)- Over charge and over discharge protection- Over current and short circuit protection- High & low temperature disconnects-...

www.epochbatteries.com

​

 

[outboard1196]

100% agree with @seneysolar - at this price point there should not be these problems to sort out!
This battery was my #1 choice for my Sprinter build but after seeing this stuff and a less than ideal email response from Epoch re a few questions I had about their V2 changes I’m starting to look elsewhere. For less $.
Shame because the build quality and “features” just flat look superior.

That said, they do have 10% off right now.
Coupon code USA10

Note the new 24V and 48V offerings in the same form factor.
The 48V version appears to be neutered at 100AH/ 5.12KWH vs the 5.88KWH of the 24 and 12V models.
The 48V is $100 less, but I’d rather have the WH given a choice.

I wonder if @Will Prowse will be testing these anytime soon, or any of the other 12V/460ah offerings out there?

12V 460Ah V2 Elite Series - Heated & Bluetooth & Victron Comms LiFePO4 Battery

- LiFePO4 Chemistry- HEATED - Internal heating allows for charging in sub-zero conditions- BLUETOOTH - iOS and Android Apps- Built-in Smart Battery Management System (BMS)- Over charge and over discharge protection- Over current and short circuit protection- High & low temperature disconnects-...

www.epochbatteries.com

​

He did look at the original one, but would be nice if he tested the new version.

 

[Rocksnsalt]

Yes that’s how I learned they existed.

 

[seneysolar]

100% agree with @seneysolar - at this price point there should not be these problems to sort out!
Two of these were looking like my #1 choice for my Sprinter build but after seeing this stuff and a less than ideal email response from Epoch re a few questions I had about their V2 changes I’m starting to look elsewhere. For less $.
Shame because the build quality and “features” just flat look superior.

That said, they do have 10% off right now.
Coupon code USA10

Note the new 24V and 48V offerings in the same form factor.
The 48V version appears to be neutered at 100AH/ 5.12KWH vs the 5.88KWH of the 24 and 12V models.
The 48V is $100 less, but I’d rather have the WH given a choice.

I wonder if @Will Prowse will be testing these anytime soon, or any of the other 12V/460ah offerings out there? Hopefully.

12V 460Ah V2 Elite Series - Heated & Bluetooth & Victron Comms LiFePO4 Battery

- LiFePO4 Chemistry- HEATED - Internal heating allows for charging in sub-zero conditions- BLUETOOTH - iOS and Android Apps- Built-in Smart Battery Management System (BMS)- Over charge and over discharge protection- Over current and short circuit protection- High & low temperature disconnects-...

www.epochbatteries.com

​

I have been considering the Vatrer 460ah in the metal case. On sale right now for $1100. I have seen pics of it opened up, looks like its decently built with Eve cells and bolt down bus bars. I like the "serviceable" metal box as well.

Its only money, maybe ill just pull the trigger

 

[Rocksnsalt]

I’ve looked at the Vatrer, looks good on the outside.
I’m kind of interested in the Temgot with self heating, screen, bt, etc.
$1200 on amazon currently .

I’d love it if Will did a 460AH shootout of those 2, both the 460ah Epochs, and the Litime
Or just the Temgot and Vatrer and Litime.

 

[Sam Cho TX]

Pretty bad deal for people that had a v1 battery, no updates and already discontinued.
I figured if there was any battery that was going to have long term support it was going to be the 460 beast. But looks like Epoch just abandoned them.

V1 and V2 can't talk with each other.

Too expensive, SOK has a 314 out at a killer price now with victron comms. Something to look forward to.