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EVE or LISHEN

Basen said their EVE and Lishen are both the same A5 grade and not A1. She still did not say what it meant exactly.
I asked if these should retain 80% after 2000-2500 cycles in normal usage. I was just fishing for more potential info on this A5 label.
She only said that 2000-2500 cycles should not be a problem. I went ahead and ordered the EVEs.

Note, their ads simply state grade-A.
I suppose it's just commercial gimmick to admit those are not grade A cells.
If I was an Eve grey market seller and that I would get my hands on hundreds of cells each month and got no time and tools to test their capacities....I would just test their voltage some hours after a top balancing and their internal resistance. Then I would make some kind of matching based on those 2 parameters (Volt, Ohm) and give the best cells to my best buyers..... would then arise a grade B1, B2.... I suppose. And perhaps from time to time a cell that meet specs (Eve sheet specs) then I could call them grade A.
But this make no sense for those Eve that do not meet the grade A specs too be called grade A1.... they are just grade B, the question now is.... What do I have.. Grade B1 or B2 or worse...?
 
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Aimee Lee2020-11-09 11:05

Hello Michael, many thanks for your inquiry.
For Lishen, the standard capacity is 272Ah, but when we match capacity, it will over 280Ah, I will send some information for your reference tomorrow morning.

Matched sets that get over 280Ah! ?

I should have bought from Basen. ?
 
Let me put this as plainly, clearly & simply as possible, translation issues considered.

NONE of the EVE, Lishen cells being sold as "Storage"or "ESS" or anything like that at these price points are MATCHED or even BATCHED.
NONE !


Vendors sort them by Voltage (typically 2.99 to 3.20 voltage - storage & shipping voltage) so that matches up. Then they double check with a YR1030 or YR1035 to see if the standing IR (Internal Resistance) is the same. They in turn CALL THAT MATCHED !

They will NOT match up during Charge or Discharge. They will deviate above 3.40V and below 3.10V without manually conditioning the cells by Bottom & Top Balancing. Top Balancing CAN improve the top side some but not the low side. This is a very marginal gain.

You will get "RUNNERS". These are cells with variable IR. They will either RUN to 2.50V Fast from around 3.10V while the others are above 3.1V or RUN to 3.65V from 3.40V while the others are still at 3,850 and above. These Runners LIMIT the total battery pack capacity as they will force Low Volt Disconnect or High Volt Disconnect cutoff before the other cells reach that point. These are runners because they transition FAST. The "Runners" appear to be roughly 10% of cells sold. * Runners can be batched together (as a pack) if they match Top & Bottom giving a reasonable return, but it will be the "oddball" with tricky edges.

280AH cells can deviate as much as 280mv, or 1mv per AH capacity, either at the top or bottom. This seems to hold true to other sizes as well.

Manual Conditioning & preparation is ESSENTIAL for these COMMODITY CELLS. That is Bottom & Top Balancing.
Failure to do so, will not realize the full potential of the assembly.
* Nota Bene *
This will also result in havoc with SOC reading accuracy if not done.

Premium EV Grade, Grade-A Cells will cost 2X just to start PLUS cost of Matching & Batching which can easily add $50+ per cell to the cost.

Fortunately: LFP optimal voltage if 3.2V per cell. The cells "as is" function well between 3.180 to 3.400 +/-. This is actually the primary curve for the chemistry.
- Below 3.00V is pointless, it is the end of the curve and only represents <5% of the AH Capacity.
- Above 3.50V is also only about 5% of actual capacity, Charge LFP to 3.65V till amps taken = 1A, within an hour the cell will settle between 3.55 to 3.50, this is NORMAL
- Most folks, to ensure Long Lifespan & Cycle Life generally reserve off the top above 3.5 and below 3.0 anyways.

The ONLY way to verify IR and to manually test, sort & batch them is a process. An IR Tester such as this (the OEM, not a relabelled VAR) Real Four Wire Lithium Battery Internal Resistance Tester YR1035+ Nickel Hydrogen Lead Button Polymer Alkalinity|Battery Testers| - AliExpress is required. * Also available on EBay/Amazon, beware of knock offs, many are rebranded by VARS (value added resellers), Yoarea IS the OEM. (original equipment manufacturer)

Pre-Balancing Cells | Orion Li-Ion Battery Management System
High resistance cell | Orion Li-Ion Battery Management System

AN FYI EXAMPLE: Custom Job for matching cells (batteryspace.com) It is not a joke ! Matching & Batching = $$ due to time & resources required. Gear for doing large batches cost as much as a house !

⚠️ When discharging/charging cells for top/bottom balancing and after assembly, remember to "FIX" or "Clamp" the cells together. They will expand & contract up to 2mm per cell (normal) during their cycles. You do not want them to Puff or Bloat. REFER TO MANUFACTURER SPEC SHEET ! Typical recommendation is 12psi @ 50% SOC

TIGHTENING TORQUES:
- 70 kgf.cm (5.0 lbf.ft)
- 35 kgf.cm (2.5 lbf.ft)
- 7 to 12 kgf.cm (0.5 to 0.9 lbf.ft)

LASTLY:
Ensure that Cell Contact surfaces are clean of greases, waxes & oils (there is often cutting oil from tapping cells and waxes to protect from corrosion.
Also, clean your BusBars regardless of type, again Oils & Waxes can cause issues with readings.
GUARANTEE that there are no Burrs, Ridges or Edges on the busbars. The stamped ones all have a slight ridge. Made ones always have burrs.
-- File them ridges down or chamfer the holes slightly which is better.
You can use a very small amount of NoAlox/OxGuard on the cell contact surface to reduce corrosion potential. DO NOT GET ON THREADS ! It is a grease and will seriously affect PSI readings when tightening bolts. Stripping the thread = BAD.

NOTE, the above oils, waxes, ridges can and do affect readings, and can cause IR issues where cells posts will heat up due to poor contact. They can also create other side effects which are not immediately observable.


lfp-voltage-chart-jpg.27632



Hope this helps, Good Luck.
Steve
 
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Here are two of their ads, both for Linshen at same price $75.20, but one lists 272ah nominal voltage, and the other 280ah nominal voltage.

I guess they are selling matched and unmatched sets?
just looking at web links shared: ... in specs for Linshen; & I noticed: "We will test all the battery Voltage and Internal resistance Voltage: The deviation less than 0.01V Resistance: The deviation less than 0.1mΩ " ... I have got a second order of EVE 280 Ah on way. Noticed on first order 3.2020 from Xuba; ... there was a difference in readings, in the pictures of my batteries showing pre-packing check of cell voltages voltages matched, and second figure I did not fully understand second value on meter, but THINK; had to be internal resistance? ... I remember wondering about second values shown on meter readings of 0.12 to 0.13, and one 0.14 ... I saw one battery being 0.2 mΩ different that top of other values. I wondered about that at the time, wishing it was a better match; and my question about if I could get a better match on the second value was not answered/ and then seemed like not a big deal. Not sure if the same 0.2 mΩ less battery was the same as the one defective battery I got replaced; but I did document a below par battery that drained faster than the others, showed more internal resistance than other cells via my BMS info when running amps through it, plus later tests show that short would not take a full charge to 3.6v, & could only reach 3.3v Max on a charge cycle; and only gets about 225 Ahs out of its' 280Ah rating. I like seeing the LINSTIN spec "less than 0.01V Resistance: The deviation less than 0.1mΩ" . I have not yet seen that spec in the EVE info. I have reviewed; PLUS not sure how much difference it makes (getting a LiFePO4 set with 0.02m Ω deviation vs 0.1 mΩ deviation, but have reasons to think it might. ... Wonder what others with more LiFePO4 experience than I (kind of still a newbie to LiFePO4s), ... think about that??? ... & OPPS Edit w after thought: ... after writing this experience and question: I think Xuba's values I saw of 0.12 to 0.13, and one 0.14 match the Linshen spec of 0.1 mΩ difference ??? / and just not a spec listed for EVE LiFePO4? or not one I have seen yet. (while a little fuzzy on mΩ ... numbers :+) ... while also thinking my one bad cell was just a roll of dice that can happen iin any parts line, and xuba stood behind their sales by replacing such @ free of charge (but did take another 2 months via sea freight). :+)
 
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I just reached to Xuba and they are out of EVE cells and offered CATL 300ah but I have not seen any specs on that.
Do you guys know of another trustworthy reseller for EVE 280ah cells ?
 
I just reached to Xuba and they are out of EVE cells and offered CATL 300ah but I have not seen any specs on that.
Do you guys know of another trustworthy reseller for EVE 280ah cells ?
You can buy them directly for higher prices
 
I just reached to Xuba and they are out of EVE cells and offered CATL 300ah but I have not seen any specs on that.
Do you guys know of another trustworthy reseller for EVE 280ah cells ?
Ask for a datasheet for those CATL 300Ah cells, the largest CATL cell I have encountered is 271Ah

The EVE cells have dried up because EVE has stopped supplying their lower tier cells to resellers.

Right now if you want large form factor cheap prismatic cells, Lishen 272Ah cells are the easiest option.
 
Ask for a datasheet for those CATL 300Ah cells, the largest CATL cell I have encountered is 271Ah

The EVE cells have dried up because EVE has stopped supplying their lower tier cells to resellers.

Right now if you want large form factor cheap prismatic cells, Lishen 272Ah cells are the easiest option.
They shared the datasheet in mandarin, I can't read it but the last page has the drawings which size matches the 280ah cells size.
and have date 2018.
I don't think it's possible to squeze more power out of the same size given the chemistry limitations.

By the way the 300kgf in the drawings is probably specification of max load.
1608784837606.png
 
They shared the datasheet in mandarin, I can't read it but the last page has the drawings which size matches the 280ah cells size.
and have date 2018.
I don't think it's possible to squeze more power out of the same size given the chemistry limitations.

By the way the 300kgf in the drawings is probably specification of max load.
View attachment 31129
1kgf = kilogram force = 9.8 Newton
It's a force, 300kgf is the same as the"weight" of a 300kg mass under the influence of the earth gravity. (Just saying, you certainly already know it)
It's clearly a physical characteristic on what it can take
 
I have asked for a price in Dongguan Huanhuan Energy Technology Co., Ltd. and they have offered me these 300ah cells, they say they are catl, I have asked for the datasheet and they have sent me one in Chinese that does not say catl anywhere. Later I asked them if they had it in English, and they sent me another that says catl, but it seems more eve because of the LF name.

I don't know what to think about all this anymore, but I'm sure something is not honest.
Ask for a datasheet for those CATL 300Ah cells, the largest CATL cell I have encountered is 271Ah

The EVE cells have dried up because EVE has stopped supplying their lower tier cells to resellers.

Right now if you want large form factor cheap prismatic cells, Lishen 272Ah cells are the easiest option.
 
I have asked for a price in Dongguan Huanhuan Energy Technology Co., Ltd. and they have offered me these 300ah cells, they say they are catl, I have asked for the datasheet and they have sent me one in Chinese that does not say catl anywhere. Later I asked them if they had it in English, and they sent me another that says catl, but it seems more eve because of the LF name.

I don't know what to think about all this anymore, but I'm sure something is not honest.
There are some negatives about that supplier. Search for other threads. What @Steve_S said about CATL is consistent with what another vendor told me. She said the only CATL cells are used cells from wrecked EVs.
 
I have asked for a price in Dongguan Huanhuan Energy Technology Co., Ltd. and they have offered me these 300ah cells, they say they are catl, I have asked for the datasheet and they have sent me one in Chinese that does not say catl anywhere. Later I asked them if they had it in English, and they sent me another that says catl, but it seems more eve because of the LF name.

I don't know what to think about all this anymore, but I'm sure something is not honest.
I have no experience with dongguan huanhuan, but there are at least two cases of unhappy customers on the forum (were sold 200Ah cells received 165Ah cells, the brand they bought doesn't make a 165Ah cell so they either received rejects, used cells or counterfeits). Search Huanhuan on the forum and read the threads before considering them.
 
They shared the datasheet in mandarin, I can't read it but the last page has the drawings which size matches the 280ah cells size.
and have date 2018.
I don't think it's possible to squeze more power out of the same size given the chemistry limitations.

By the way the 300kgf in the drawings is probably specification of max load.
View attachment 31129
I would be interested to see the datasheet even in mandarin if you have it available.
 
Interesting, it appears to be a legitimate CATL datasheet (not that I am knowledgeable enough to speak with authority on the matter), but if you compare with this CATL datasheet for their 202Ah cell it is very similar. You can use the 202Ah datasheet to translate some parts of the 300Ah datasheet too.

I have heard that current iterations of aluminum prismatic cells have slightly improved energy density and are pushing 300Ah (up until now, ETC is the only company I have seen offering >300Ah cells to small customers). But I have not seen any of these cells making their way to the grey market yes. It looks like you may have discovered some, though how or why they are on the grey market is a big question mark. If they are truly 300Ah cells, they are probably somewhat recently produced, they could be B grade (as are many grey market cells) they could be used EV cells like others have mused about, they could be some other form of factory second.

But I would reiterate, be cautious with that seller, they have 2 strikes against them that I am aware of.
 
Yes, my above comment was about Dongguan Huanhuan. I have only seen two datapoints, but both have been negative.

Is Xuba also offering to sell you 300Ah CATL cells?
 
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