What won’t help is the number of EV cars using LiFePo batteries are also increasing dramatically with scarcity of Li-Ion materials.
I’d love to know the % of Teslas being made with LiFePo cells these days, I think it’d shock many people.
EV's and Batteries
- Thread starter 740GLE
- Start date
I’d love to know the % of Teslas being made with LiFePo cells these days, I think it’d shock many people.
Horsefly
Solar Wizard
Tesla is already using cobalt-free LFP batteries in half of its new cars produced
Tesla confirmed that nearly half of all its vehicles produced last quarter are already using cobalt-free iron-phosphate (LFP) batteries. The information also gives us an interesting insight into Tesla’s mix of models, which is generally quite opaque. Over the last few years, CEO Elon Musk has...
electrek.co
sidpost
New Member
Most EV buyers are buying the impression of being Earth-friendly without a basic grounding in the science and economics IMHO.
The global damage to the Earth acquiring the raw materials for EV cars is overlooked by most people on the EV bandwagon. Then there is the issue of where they get to the power to recharge them. Finally, there is the issue of what happens at end of life. Do the cars get recycled in a reasonable way?
Personally, I tend to believe a modern efficient gas engined car has less negative impact on the Earth than a Tesla or some other EV. These efficient gas-engined cars are also affordable to the average person unlike a Tesla of any flavor.
Many people who buy an EV get their power from a clean/green grid (hydro/nuclear/renewables) already - and even if they do not, and they are getting power from a coal fired power plant, one centralized powerplant is far more efficient than thousands of individual car engines. It also means tackling that one plant (upgrading to a cleaner type of plant, or doing carbon capture at the plant itself) instantly makes all those EV's more green.
Also, other car makers make EV's, so if you cant afford a Tesla there are choices.
At least here in Europe, several projects are under way to recycle lithium batteries, and it's expected to become a major industry with a lot of investment behind it.
New EU laws push battery recycling – DW – 06/18/2021
As the popularity of electric vehicles starts to grow explosively, so does the pile of used batteries. Only about half of them are currently recycled. New EU regulation could boost investment in the nascent industry.
www.dw.com
Preparing for EU’s new Battery Regulation | Stena Recycling
The EU's proposed new Battery Regulation challenges the manufacturing industry, recyclers and others. The proposal introduces a number of new requirements.
www.stenarecycling.com
Moving to LiFePO4 also means you take some of the more troublesome materials out of the equations (such as Cobalt).
VW's new Buzz will be supplied carbon neutral:
Sustainability – in harmony with the environment
The Volkswagen Newsroom is a service of Volkswagen AG for journalists, bloggers, and multipliers. It offers the latest news for press and media.
www.volkswagen-newsroom.com
Finland just powered up a new nuclear reactor, renewable sources are on the rise and with the current situation in Ukraine this will likely accelerate. Cost of EVs will come down, for example the Opel Corsa-e, Peugeot e-208 or even the Dacia Spring Electric. Very few people commute long distances here, so these smaller EVs with smaller range make a lot of sense, especially when gas is currently 2.25€ per liter...
sidpost
New Member
During my time in Europe, Germany and the Netherlands mostly, I did so without a car. The trains there are very convenient and cost-effective when I needed to travel further than I wanted to walk or ride a bicycle. Public transport in the EU is very efficient overall and, urban sprawl isn't nearly the problem it is in the USA. I still miss walking to the city center to buy fruit, vegetables, fresh fish, etc. on Saturday mornings and still dream about the Green Herring runs when they were in season.At least here in Europe, several projects are under way to recycle lithium batteries, and it's expected to become a major industry with a lot of investment behind it.
New EU laws push battery recycling – DW – 06/18/2021
As the popularity of electric vehicles starts to grow explosively, so does the pile of used batteries. Only about half of them are currently recycled. New EU regulation could boost investment in the nascent industry.
Preparing for EU’s new Battery Regulation | Stena Recycling
The EU's proposed new Battery Regulation challenges the manufacturing industry, recyclers and others. The proposal introduces a number of new requirements.
Moving to LiFePO4 also means you take some of the more troublesome materials out of the equations (such as Cobalt).
VW's new Buzz will be supplied carbon neutral:
Sustainability – in harmony with the environment
The Volkswagen Newsroom is a service of Volkswagen AG for journalists, bloggers, and multipliers. It offers the latest news for press and media.
Finland just powered up a new nuclear reactor, renewable sources are on the rise and with the current situation in Ukraine this will likely accelerate. Cost of EVs will come down, for example the Opel Corsa-e, Peugeot e-208 or even the Dacia Spring Electric. Very few people commute long distances here, so these smaller EVs with smaller range make a lot of sense, especially when gas is currently 2.25€ per liter...
Personally, I'm a big fan of 'good' nuclear power. Seeing Germany get rid of its nuclear plants to import more Russian energy was a real downer for me. Now, the Germans don't have much choice about funding Putin's genocidal war in Ukraine by importing energy from Russia.
If the USA could get new nuclear plants approved and get rid of the bogus litigation designed to bankrupt them, I could see electric vehicles and power, in general, being a lot more attractive. The major thing the USA could do to reduce car pollution is to stop people driving for an hour or more each way to work and to have grocery stores and other necessities in the local communities where people live. With no sidewalk or bicycle lanes, there simply is no safe way to commute in anything other than a car most places.
How do you "stop" people from driving an hour? I have a 15 minute drive. My boss drives an hour. Why I have no idea. I don't like living that far away from work, I used to do that and it got really old quick with that much of my day wasted. But it is his choice.
I can't fathom riding a bike to the grocery store. What am I supposed to do with my groceries after I buy them? I fill up the trunk of the car once a week. Can't do that much on a bike!
I can't fathom riding a bike to the grocery store. What am I supposed to do with my groceries after I buy them? I fill up the trunk of the car once a week. Can't do that much on a bike!
sidpost
New Member
I lived with a little Kawasaki KLX-250S for ~6 months in my mid-30's and I could pack a week's worth of groceries in one trip. The eggs though had to go in a camping egg-crate to keep from breaking them.
Moved this section to its own thread in General Battery Discussion.
I worry more about how long the EV batteries will hold the capacity and the related driving range.
First LEAF was a disaster.
RAV4-EV with Tesla drive train and battery was somewhat better.
I-Pace after three years has been fantastic.
Cheap 4-life
My body is 2.63 trillion volts, .07v per cell
50% of Tesla’s vehicles made this year have LFP. LFP is getting more energy dense so they can fit more power in the same size area. Also it’s recommended to only charge Nicole cobalt EV batteries to roughly 80%. No real harm in charging LFP to 100%. So that’s 20% more power. The less energy dense LFP is getting very comparable
joanna_lannie
Maybe sleepwalking now
- Joined
- Sep 14, 2021
- Messages
- 188
Recently, Tesla has used LiFePO4 batteries in many cars, but there is no doubt that Tesla's understanding of LiFePO4 is quite incomprehensible, and there are currently vehicle recalls. Although the energy density of LiFePO4 batteries has been improving, it has actually reached the bottleneck... To be honest, I am not very optimistic about Tesla's current models equipped with LiFePO4 batteries. But there may be surprises later, after all, Elon Musk is such a person.
Tesla has been short on battery cells since the first Roadster. Cannot get enough batteries has been perpetual. Same cells used in the power wall and grid scale batteries. Everything is going exponential. LFP in the base model cars allows Tesla to produce and sell more vehicles which is needed to make money and stay in business.
I believe Tesla knows exactly how LFP works best for what is needed.
I believe Tesla knows exactly how LFP works best for what is needed.
Then why wast Tesla using LFP in powerwalls from the start?
This is blatantly incorrect.
Your belief isn’t founded in any way other than guts without science. Do some research, and you will find fuel burning at its best possible theoretical maximum is less than 1/4 the energy efficiency of electricity production…
Steve_S
Offgrid Cabineer, N.E. Ontario, Canada
Largely due to IP Rights & Licensing with restricted manufacture / export. IP is now UP and LFP production is going global "finally" so the picture has changed a lot. Powerwalls are now going towards LFP while numerous other "Power Storage Solutions" for residences are also heavily into LFP and within the next 2 years will most likely be all LFP. The TWO Variants of LFP & LYFP (Y = Yttrium Doped for Cold Weather handling to -30C) are both considerably safer than the other Lithium Chemistries (at this time).
Lithium Sodium and Lithium Sulphur are possible EV Contenders if production can ramp and be proven but such a change would require a minimum 5 years of actual testing/use/abuse to be fully validated.
PS: Factories to produce LFP & and variant cells are being built in EU, North America and the Africa's presently with some due to come online THIS SUMMER even !
sidpost
New Member
This ignores the issues of sourcing raw and scarce materials and their costs and impacts on the Earth. Just look at the Atacama Desert as one example of an impact most EV drivers are oblivious to.
If all you consider is the cost of energy without any other impacts, then more efficient energy production at an efficient and significant energy plant is better. However, there is a lot more driving the costs of transportation than just the cost of electricity or gasoline and its relative efficiency. Total lifecycle costs/impacts go far beyond just the electrical plant or refinery/gas station. My Diesel VW's all got over 50MPG where and how I drove them and my motorcycle routinely got 110~120MPG. Non-EV transportation can be pretty efficient. In Europe, I generally don't rent a car and use trains exclusively which to me is even better than EV options over there.
I'm looking at total lifetime costs and impacts. What are the costs and impacts of making the car, operating it, and, then recycling it, and the impacts of procuring those raw materials needed to begin with? Total lifetime costs of ownership and their overall impacts matter! Looking at just one aspect of a much larger system overlooks all the issues that impact the decision. If all I care about is efficient and Earth-friendly energy production, it is hard to beat a bifacial solar panel with a ~30-year lifespan.
I have not seen much to read on panels that are actually 30 years in service. Mostly speculation of the sudden avalanche of panels to recycle.
I keep thinking many will still be in service at 40+ years.
