Final steps of home install.

[Hedges]

Yes, it is still overheating when used at full-output. I should stress this is not a serious issue or malfunction leaving me inoperable. It only overheats when at 100% output/duty cycle. I don't know about other inverters, but I'm willing to bet most can't do that either. My LV6548's would hit the thermal limit if they were at 75% output for an extended period of time.

What wattage causes overheating?

https://www.ssie.ca/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/Indoor-12K-Manual-9-21-2020-Indoor.pdf

Says 9000W continuous to grid, 8000W continuous to loads (off-grid)

Doesn't mention temperature, so ought to be at nominal 25 degrees C.
Oh, "Ambient Temperature (3 variable speed fans)-25 to 55C, >45C derating" - if that is to believed, no derating below 45C (114F)
So salesman's statement is consistent with manufacturer documentation.

"Some" brands specify temperature, and derated wattage at elevated temperature.

 

[Lt.Dan]

I kinda looked through the thread but can’t pinpoint what your issue was.


Was it overheating?

Would adding another 12k alleviate the issue?

You running to close to max on it or something?

I didn't really bring it up much, except in other threads because I didn't want it to be "Normal Operation" and me be upset about it.

I am running it close to max, very often, and another 12k would help, but only because they would then run at a lower output. The fix shouldn't be spend another $6k+, it should work within its operating parameters.

To explain what actually happens, here is a graph from Solar Assistant. Anytime there is large DC current going in-or-out of the battery, the temperature spikes. So between 10am and 3pm, the PV is charging the batteries, and there is high DC Current going into the battery, with the occasional drop in temps because the house load increased, which forced PV direct to AC loads. Then you can see at 4pm, I started selling back to the grid at max output (9000w), which causes the temps to peak and stay there until 9pm, when the load turns off and the house is in pretty much standby while we sleep.

You can see there is a slight lull between 4pm and roughly 5:30pm because there is still PV available, so it is taking PV and sending to the grid, and then supplementing the rest with battery to sellback with the full 9000w. Since it is not full output from the battery, the temps don't rise as high. Since noticing this, I have it set to only sell back to the grid at 7500w, which keeps the temps at 82-85*C, below the derating limit. This is a band-aid, but I'm not getting the advertised capacity from my very expensive inverter.

https://www.ssie.ca/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/Indoor-12K-Manual-9-21-2020-Indoor.pdf

Mine is an outdoor model, you have linked an Indoor model, and it is an outdated manual.

This is the one direct from their website:

https://www.sol-ark.com/wp-content/uploads/12K-2P-N_Manual.pdf

Says 9000W continuous to grid, 8000W continuous to loads (off-grid)

A firmware update has made both of these values 9000w, as well as 12,000w with PV available to supplement.


I am trying to use the full 9000w between 4pm and 9pm, as well as charge with max current while PV is available.

Doesn't mention temperature, so ought to be at nominal 25 degrees C.
Oh, "Ambient Temperature (3 variable speed fans)-25 to 55C, >45C derating" - if that is to believed, no derating below 45C (114F)
So salesman's statement is consistent with manufacturer documentation.

"Some" brands specify temperature, and derated wattage at elevated temperature.

The updated manual shows the same. But yeah, the garage is at 78*F. Well below the temp ratings.

 

[Nobodybusiness]

I didn't really bring it up much, except in other threads because I didn't want it to be "Normal Operation" and me be upset about it.

I am running it close to max, very often, and another 12k would help, but only because they would then run at a lower output. The fix shouldn't be spend another $6k+, it should work within its operating parameters.

To explain what actually happens, here is a graph from Solar Assistant. Anytime there is large DC current going in-or-out of the battery, the temperature spikes. So between 10am and 3pm, the PV is charging the batteries, and there is high DC Current going into the battery, with the occasional drop in temps because the house load increased, which forced PV direct to AC loads. Then you can see at 4pm, I started selling back to the grid at max output (9000w), which causes the temps to peak and stay there until 9pm, when the load turns off and the house is in pretty much standby while we sleep.

You can see there is a slight lull between 4pm and roughly 5:30pm because there is still PV available, so it is taking PV and sending to the grid, and then supplementing the rest with battery to sellback with the full 9000w. Since it is not full output from the battery, the temps don't rise as high. Since noticing this, I have it set to only sell back to the grid at 7500w, which keeps the temps at 82-85*C, below the derating limit. This is a band-aid, but I'm not getting the advertised capacity from my very expensive inverter.
View attachment 165816

Mine is an outdoor model, you have linked an Indoor model, and it is an outdated manual.

This is the one direct from their website:

https://www.sol-ark.com/wp-content/uploads/12K-2P-N_Manual.pdf

A firmware update has made both of these values 9000w, as well as 12,000w with PV available to supplement.
View attachment 165820

I am trying to use the full 9000w between 4pm and 9pm, as well as charge with max current while PV is available.

View attachment 165817
The updated manual shows the same. But yeah, the garage is at 78*F. Well below the temp ratings.

Hmm.

Not sure.
I ran 2 so can’t reproduce the issue.

You think they would give you an upgrade path to the 15k?
Like a credit for 12k or something?

Not ideal but maybe better than buying another 12k.

 

[Lt.Dan]

Hmm.

Not sure.
I ran 2 so can’t reproduce the issue.

You think they would give you an upgrade path to the 15k?
Like a credit for 12k or something?

Not ideal but maybe better than buying another 12k.

When they sent me the refurbished unit, I asked that exact question. I reached out to @HighTechLab (whom I bought the Sol-Ark from to begin with) to see if that was an option, and he reached out to Sol-Ark, as we should be able to set it up as Sol-Ark sending the replacement direct to Current Connected, and we use it to exchange for the 15k, and I pay the difference. Unfortunately warranty claims with Sol-Ark do not warrant new inverters be shipped out, and they send a refurbished unit. So unfortunately since the inverter wasn't new, it was not an option.

While talking with them about the 15k, I was told they actually removed the DC temp sensor on the 15k, because they "Oversized the cooling system on it, and it is impossible for it to overheat". That concerns me because of one of 2 things:

1) They know the 12k's cooling system was undersized, so they made it incredibly large on the 15k to prevent this same issue that I am having.
2) The 15k could be overheating and have NO IDEA. Yeah they oversized the cooling system, but how do you know FOR SURE?

 

[Nobodybusiness]

When they sent me the refurbished unit, I asked that exact question. I reached out to @HighTechLab (whom I bought the Sol-Ark from to begin with) to see if that was an option, and he reached out to Sol-Ark, as we should be able to set it up as Sol-Ark sending the replacement direct to Current Connected, and we use it to exchange for the 15k, and I pay the difference. Unfortunately warranty claims with Sol-Ark do not warrant new inverters be shipped out, and they send a refurbished unit. So unfortunately since the inverter wasn't new, it was not an option.

While talking with them about the 15k, I was told they actually removed the DC temp sensor on the 15k, because they "Oversized the cooling system on it, and it is impossible for it to overheat". That concerns me because of one of 2 things:

1) They know the 12k's cooling system was undersized, so they made it incredibly large on the 15k to prevent this same issue that I am having.
2) The 15k could be overheating and have NO IDEA. Yeah they oversized the cooling system, but how do you know FOR SURE?

Tough spot.

I don’t agree with their policy on this but I understand.
They have fell victim to their own success.
The 15k is going to eliminate the 12k eventually and maybe even the 8k.

I hear you on the 15ks.
They indeed do not have a DC temp on them.
I have no idea if it is getting hot or not.

I just run them as designed and if the DC side fails we will cross that bridge when we get there.

 

[400bird]

I don't know about other inverters, but I'm willing to bet most can't do that either.

My Schneider XW can and has output 100% for hours when the ambient is over 100°F
It doesn't integrate a charge controller, I'm looking at AC output, so not exactly an apples to apples comparison. My only point tos that specs are there for a reason, if you can't trust them, what's the use?

 

[Shawn Hayes]

My only point tos that specs are there for a reason, if you can't trust them, what's the use?

Agreed. So are they really EMP hardened or not? Really starting to question my next purchase.

 

[Hedges]

Some radiated field tests SolArk had performed by a certified lab.
How they tolerate what's picked up by PV and AC wires is also important. That can be done as conducted immunity. I think they demonstrated that with in-house tests.

It all depends on amplitude and spectrum of transient, which depends on your planned environment.
Some weapons are intended to operate through an extremely close near miss.
Some are intended to keep operating at least as long as their hapless occupants/operators have not yet died, so they can continue their mission.
You may only care about events that leave you sufficiently uninjured to have a reasonable life expectancy.

With the protection option, SolArk should be more robust than many others.
But we like to DIY some tests to have confidence. That's how I independently learned about Delta surge arrestors, before learning they were a joke in the industry.

You might do best adding big honking filters and surge arrestors, if you consider EMP/CME hardness important.

 

[Shawn Hayes]

When they sent me the refurbished unit, I asked that exact question.
Unfortunately warranty claims with Sol-Ark do not warrant new inverters be shipped out, and they send a refurbished unit. So unfortunately since the inverter wasn't new, it was not an option.

Was the original 12K a brand new inverter or a refurbished model?

If the first 12K was “brand new”, why, “under warranty” would they send you a refurbished model instead of brand new? If so, that’s completely unacceptable as you’re paying for a new unit not refurbished.

Or, did I misread that?

 

[Hedges]

I would expect new replacement for DOA. But refurbished would be a normal replacement for something bought new which later failed in use. Similarly, components used for repair might be refurbished. (for electronics; I would not expect that for an automobile during original factory warranty.)

 

[Lt.Dan]

Was the original 12K a brand new inverter or a refurbished model?

If the first 12K was “brand new”, why, “under warranty” would they send you a refurbished model instead of brand new? If so, that’s completely unacceptable as you’re paying for a new unit not refurbished.

Or, did I misread that?

The original was brand new, purchased from Current Connected, then 10 months later I reached out to them about the overheating problem, and they exchanged it with a refurbished model. Once the refurbished model arrived and was installed, I confirmed the same overheating problem so I shipped (on their dime) the original inverter back to them for engineers to diagnose.

 

[Shawn Hayes]

The original was brand new, purchased from Current Connected, then 10 months later I reached out to them about the overheating problem, and they exchanged it with a refurbished model. Once the refurbished model arrived and was installed, I confirmed the same overheating problem so I shipped (on their dime) the original inverter back to them for engineers to diagnose.

Yeah I think I remember hearing you don’t get a new inverter if yours craps out. 10 yr warranty my ……
So can anyone FROM Sol-Ark show in writing, the policy at which point (if at all) you get a new inverter for your new inverter? Or once you receive it, day one, then they can only replace with a refurbished unit?
If you pay that kind of money, (I have) how many people really think it’s fair, to the customer, to replace a new unit with a refurbished model?? Should be replaced with a brand new unit, within a reasonable one year, maybe more, period if they really stand behind that 10 yr warranty?
Maybe I don’t understand their definition of refurbished…
Hope you get a sufficient resolution.

 

[400bird]

Was the original 12K a brand new inverter or a refurbished model?

If the first 12K was “brand new”, why, “under warranty” would they send you a refurbished model instead of brand new? If so, that’s completely unacceptable as you’re paying for a new unit not refurbished.

Or, did I misread that?

The inverter he sent back wasn't new anymore either.
If the engine in your car fails under warranty at 30,000 miles, you aren't likely to get a new one. You'll get a remanufactured engine.
Same with your cell phone.

This is standard across industries, if the item can be rebuild/repaired, you are likely to get a remanufactured unit under warranty.

 

[Lt.Dan]

Yeah I think I remember hearing you don’t get a new inverter if yours craps out. 10 yr warranty my ……
So can anyone FROM Sol-Ark show in writing, the policy at which point (if at all) you get a new inverter for your new inverter? Or once you receive it, day one, then they can only replace with a refurbished unit?
If you pay that kind of money, (I have) how many people really think it’s fair, to the customer, to replace a new unit with a refurbished model?? Should be replaced with a brand new unit, within a reasonable one year, maybe more, period if they really stand behind that 10 yr warranty?
Maybe I don’t understand their definition of refurbished…
Hope you get a sufficient resolution.

Yeah my unit was definitely not new after I had it on the wall and sent 14MWh through it. The refurbished unit might even be used less and in this instance might be "newer"?

 

[Hedges]

If the engine in your car fails under warranty at 30,000 miles, you aren't likely to get a new one. You'll get a remanufactured engine.

When was the last time someone had their engine replaced with a remanufactured one under those circumstances?
I would expect the dealer to repair their original engine, using new factory original parts.

Tesla was an outlier, swapping major components at the first issue, to give the best service to early adopters.

Outside of warranty, you're more likely to make the choice yourself. Repaired with expensive local labor (usually not highly experienced in your model), or swap in a rebuild that was done almost assembly line fashion, or get a used one?

 

[Shawn Hayes]

Yeah my unit was definitely not new after I had it on the wall and sent 14MWh through it. The refurbished unit might even be used less and in this instance might be "newer"?

If you’re ok with it, I understand. I think for top tier equipment and top tier prices, you would get top tier service. However, if the refurbished unit is a loaner until your new unit was repaired, I would understand. But I would want my new unit repaired and sent back to me.
It’s great that they’ll send a unit out to you for replacement/loaner, but “ALL” shipping and handling should be at their expense, especially within the first year of warranty.
If the unit is refurbished, how do we know that unit’s history? Which components were swapped out? If only the one bad component was refurbished and not the rest, the rest could fail sooner than a new unit?
Just my opinion, but as a consumer, maybe I expect too much for top tier?

 

[Lt.Dan]

Well, the service rep at SolArk called me Friday morning and apologized for taking so long with the diagnosing of the inverter. The engineers are still looking into it, but he offered for my troubles to actually exchange the 12k I currently have, for a 15k at no additional charge. He is putting through the paperwork and it'll be on its way to me soon. This is what customer service is like. Even though there were some bumps, in the end they went over and beyond.

It's a win-win for them, because now I'm going to tell so many people about my excellent experience with them, and they might gain an extra customer, or two (or even more) just because of this experience. So sending an inverter worth $2-2500 more, was as actually a business decision that they would in turn make a profit from.

 

[Shawn Hayes]

Congratulations. As for my comments earlier, this is more what I expect from a tier one company. Where the customer gets a satisfactory outcome. It’s a win/win, I agree!
Please keep posting on the progress of setup?

 

[Nobodybusiness]

Well, the service rep at SolArk called me Friday morning and apologized for taking so long with the diagnosing of the inverter. The engineers are still looking into it, but he offered for my troubles to actually exchange the 12k I currently have, for a 15k at no additional charge. He is putting through the paperwork and it'll be on its way to me soon. This is what customer service is like. Even though there were some bumps, in the end they went over and beyond.

It's a win-win for them, because now I'm going to tell so many people about my excellent experience with them, and they might gain an extra customer, or two (or even more) just because of this experience. So sending an inverter worth $2-2500 more, was as actually a business decision that they would in turn make a profit from.

Very nice.
I’m glad you got this worked out.

They really need to come up with an upgrade path.

Unfortunately they are a victim of their own success.
The 15k is probably going to take over the 12ks market.

 

[Kuma]

SMA also replaces failed "used" units with refurbs. New installs, doa, receive a new inverter. SMA provides a $150 Service Call Refund and pays for all shipping costs.

I did not read this entire thread but did notice you are replacing a 12k inverter with a 15k inverter. I live in Nor Cal, PGE same as you, and finishing up a permitted self install on NEM 2. PGE made it clear that the inverter size can not ever be increased with the NEM 2 approved application. If everyone increased their PV system that could damage/over load the grid/transformers.... Also, PGE would not know the actual solar kw's being put on the grid system for planning. Not trying to scare you or talk you out of it the 15k inverter just sharing info and something to consider. Or not...

Perhaps getting the installer to get approval from PGE to ensure you will not have any issues in the future if PGE starts monitoring peoples solar. That being said, if your system never reached full 12kw peak, never clipped, than PGE should not see any change on the grid as peak is the concern, not production. If your 12kw inverter clipped, then the 15k inverter will output a higher peak kw's to the grid. Again, it probably will never become an issue but things can change in the 20+ years of your PV systems life with your current application approval.

 

[Lt.Dan]

SMA also replaces failed "used" units with refurbs. New installs, doa, receive a new inverter. SMA provides a $150 Service Call Refund and pays for all shipping costs.

I did not read this entire thread but did notice you are replacing a 12k inverter with a 15k inverter. I live in Nor Cal, PGE same as you, and finishing up a permitted self install on NEM 2. PGE made it clear that the inverter size can not ever be increased with the NEM 2 approved application. If everyone increased their PV system that could damage/over load the grid/transformers.... Also, PGE would not know the actual solar kw's being put on the grid system for planning. Not trying to scare you or talk you out of it the 15k inverter just sharing info and something to consider. Or not...

Perhaps getting the installer to get approval from PGE to ensure you will not have any issues in the future if PGE starts monitoring peoples solar. That being said, if your system never reached full 12kw peak, never clipped, than PGE should not see any change on the grid as peak is the concern, not production. If your 12kw inverter clipped, then the 15k inverter will output a higher peak kw's to the grid. Again, it probably will never become an issue but things can change in the 20+ years of your PV systems life with your current application approval.

I do not have PG&E. We have So Cal Edison. And I'm not too worried about it. My system according to SCE is 11kw, but I have added 4100w of AC coupled after the fact. My export/sell to the grid is still the same, and usually never is over 7500w. With the 15k it will be higher, but I doubt there will be a problem.

I do plan on keeping max sell power to 11,000w though, but my base loads will always rob some selling back at that amount. I doubt I'll have problems.

 

[Kuma]

I do not have PG&E. We have So Cal Edison. And I'm not too worried about it. My system according to SCE is 11kw, but I have added 4100w of AC coupled after the fact. My export/sell to the grid is still the same, and usually never is over 7500w. With the 15k it will be higher, but I doubt there will be a problem.

I do plan on keeping max sell power to 11,000w though, but my base loads will always rob some selling back at that amount. I doubt I'll have problems.

Sounds like you have it covered. I looked up Tulare California and saw PGE mentioned. Looked more just now and did see So Cal Edison and PGE mentioned.

 

[Lt.Dan]

Sounds like you have it covered. I looked up Tulare California and saw PGE mentioned. Looked more just now and did see So Cal Edison and PGE mentioned.

Interesting. I've lived in Tulare County for almost 30 years and never new PG&E serviced any of this area. I wonder where, or maybe they service commercial buildings?

 

[400bird]

I'm pretty sure there are some areas of the valley down there that have PGE for gas and SoCal Edison for electric. Doesn't make a lick of sense.

 

[Lt.Dan]

Little update, I still haven't gotten the 15k on the wall yet. I'm totally redesigning my wire trough, and I pretty much have it done and ready. Going to make a new video for the YT channel in the next couple weeks showing removal/bypassing the 12k, and installing the new 15k in its place, so stay tuned!

www.youtube.com/@McKenzieHobbies