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Finally found a UL9540 DC ESS - SimpliPHI 6.6

Z

zanydroid

Solar Wizard
Joined
Mar 6, 2022
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San Mateo County, CA
Every couple of months I do another round of Googling to see what the progress is on UL9540 Edition 3. I finally found a 48V DC ESS:

Haven't had a chance yet to look through the manuals / listing certificate. Here is a screenshot of the press release. (Hot off the press - less than 2 weeks old)

1715460942965.png/
 
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This is an interesting battery. It will give HomeGrid competition. I don't know what other inverters it may be compatible with. The literature says No Dip Switches. And yes, it's interesting to see a battery listed to UL9540 3rd edition.

Pytes is also introducing a stackable battery. I don't know what edition of UL9540.
 
Oldphile said:
This is an interesting battery. It will give HomeGrid competition. I don't know what other inverters it may be compatible with. The literature says No Dip Switches. And yes, it's interesting to see a battery listed to UL9540 3rd edition.

Pytes is also introducing a stackable battery. I don't know what edition of UL9540.
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DC ESS is supposed to allow it to be used with inverters that weren't explicitly listed with it, as long as the installation instructions are compatible.

I don't see a manual yet on their website.

It's still early days of DC ESS, so I'm hoping there are some people willing to get the experience and report back.

I think there are a few AC ESS batteries listed to UL9540 3rd edition.
 
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Edition 3 is the latest one. Apart from cleanup it added DC ESS. See couple posts above for why DC ESS is theoretically good (basically much more flexibility in mixing and matching inverters and batteries while retaining UL9540 certification for the system as a whole). An AC ESS listing is for the combination of inverter and battery, IE both are required to be tested together.

That said this battery costs 2x more per kWh than a 14kWh wall battery and a little under 2x more than a 5kWh rack mount. So suppose you went for this 6.6kWh instead of a EG4 rack mount because you didn’t think EG4 would be around to provide a compatible UL9540 inverter in the future to go with the battery. That would be a questionable financial investment since you could just junk the server rack battery if that happens and buy a new one for the same cost
 
Early April, I had 4 Pytes V5 batteries installed in their outside cabinet. That's about $8500. Three Simpliph 6.6 with base and controller is only slightly more. The solar installer I contracted with is a Briggs and Stratton dealer. I'm sure he would have proposed the 6.6 if it was available at that time.
 
Oldphile said:
Early April, I had 4 Pytes V5 batteries installed in their outside cabinet. That's about $8500. Three Simpliph 6.6 with base and controller is only slightly more. The solar installer I contracted with is a Briggs and Stratton dealer. I'm sure he would have proposed the 6.6 if it was available at that time.
Click to expand...
Makes sense to compare this battery against others in the same segment, which I was not doing necessarily.

Though aren’t Pytes just slightly dressed up server rack batteries, that happen to be UL9540 tested with SolArks?
 
zanydroid said:
Makes sense to compare this battery against others in the same segment, which I was not doing necessarily.

Though aren’t Pytes just slightly dressed up server rack batteries, that happen to be UL9540 tested with SolArks?
Click to expand...
Yup, they are server rack batteries. I chose them because they had UL9540 with Sol-Ark.
 
e645824 said:
Simpliphi posted a video introduction to the new 6.6 battery:

https://youtu.be/JHeNpSzSKG4
Click to expand...
I've watched two webinars on this battery. I'm not sure if it was this video, but one of them described a gateway that is required for BMS updates. It's about $1,000. :rolleyes: That makes this battery uncompetitive with Pytes. The Pytes V5 battery has a $37 Wi-Fi dongle.

Pytes is also introducing a stackable battery, but I don't know how it will compare $$$.
 
The Discover AES Rackmount / Slimline system is also “DC ESS” certified. I confirmed with one of their sales engineers that it would maintain UL9540 status with any UL1741 inverter. The BMS communication also seems to support a broad range of inverters - including Victron. I’m designing a code-compliant system right now including this battery bank and Victron 10kVA inverters (which are now also UL1741 listed).

AES RACKMOUNT | 48-48-5120 | Discover Battery

discoverlithium.com discoverlithium.com
 
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A-P said:
The Discover AES Rackmount / Slimline system is also “DC ESS” listed. I confirmed with one of their sales engineers that it would maintain UL9540 status with any UL1741 inverter. The BMS communication also seems to support a broad range of inverters - including Victron. I’m designing a code-compliant system right now including this battery bank and Victron 10kVA inverters (which are now also UL1741 listed).

AES RACKMOUNT | 48-48-5120 | Discover Battery

discoverlithium.com discoverlithium.com
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Thanks. How does the cost/form factor/feature set compare to SimpliPhi?

And what was the reason to go with this equipment combination for your project?
 
zanydroid said:
Thanks. How does the cost/form factor/feature set compare to SimpliPhi?

And what was the reason to go with this equipment combination for your project?
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Sure!

1. Their support is super responsive and quite technical. They even suggested how I should design my Victron wiring.
2. 30kWh can fit in one rack and I needed an outdoor rated system (very tight space in my home so difficult to fit indoors while meeting fire code).
3. It wasn’t super clear to me how well the new SimpliPhi systems communicated with the Victron systems (and B&S generally want you to deal with them through a dealer).
4. Generally it’s been easier to find docs for the Discover system. I couldn’t find the UL certificate for the B&S system.

I’m sure both are totally fine though!

I got a quote from NAZ for the 30kWh rack with heated batteries for a bit over $13k.
 
Thanks. Sounds exciting . Look forward to seeing how your build turns out.

Regarding my thinking so far… since I’m considering a hybrid build, Victron is out (unless they got 1741SB for the latest set of UL inverters to allow use with my POCO).

And the non DC ESS wall batteries being half the cost or less of the DC ESS solutions means I could throw away those batteries if there is no compatible inverter in 10 years, and still end up ahead or equal.
 
zanydroid said:
Thanks. Sounds exciting . Look forward to seeing how your build turns out.

Regarding my thinking so far… since I’m considering a hybrid build, Victron is out (unless they got 1741SB for the latest set of UL inverters to allow use with my POCO).

And the non DC ESS wall batteries being half the cost or less of the DC ESS solutions means I could throw away those batteries if there is no compatible inverter in 10 years, and still end up ahead or equal.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I actually applied for an interconnect last week with my utility (Eversource), with the Victron inverters as I want to charge from / pass-through the grid. They don’t have UL1741 “SB” or even “SA” certification (which Eversource also require), but my application is for a non-export self consumption system so I’m hoping it works out.

My initial design is without PV, but I know I’ll want PV in the future so wanted to go the code compliant route (even if it’s non-export)

I’ll definitely update on this forum when I hear back from the utility. I’m sure others will be curious.

I hear you though - the DC ESS batteries aren’t cheap.
 
Ah ok, non-export is probably fine. SA and SB are for ride-through and throttling response function (Frequency-Watts, Volt-watts, etc). If you're not pushing power to the grid then that is irrelevant.

What are the DC ESS rules with respect to attaching SCCs? Can you use any 1741 SCC?

The DC ESS are the only way to go with stuff like Victron or MidNite Rosie.

Rosie has the advantage that you have more code compliant SCCs, that can communicate with the inverter. (Victron SCCs last I checked did not have AFCI, which you would need for a roof mount)
 
zanydroid said:
Ah ok, non-export is probably fine. SA and SB are for ride-through and throttling response function (Frequency-Watts, Volt-watts, etc). If you're not pushing power to the grid then that is irrelevant.

What are the DC ESS rules with respect to attaching SCCs? Can you use any 1741 SCC?

The DC ESS are the only way to go with stuff like Victron or MidNite Rosie.

Rosie has the advantage that you have more code compliant SCCs, that can communicate with the inverter. (Victron SCCs last I checked did not have AFCI, which you would need for a roof mount)
Click to expand...
That’s a really interesting question. My current thinking is to opt out of the Victron ecosystem for the PV portion (for the same reasons you mention) and rely on AC-coupled Fronius inverters. These have all the proper certifications (UL1741SB, IEEE 1547), but important in my case also have strong non-export support when paired with Victron. I may or may not need to re-apply for an interconnect, but I can’t imagine it being an issue if they had previously approved the Victrons.

When the Fronius inverters are connected to the AC output of the Victrons, they can continue to operate when the grid fails. Further, the Victrons can charge the batteries from any excess PV.

I don’t think it would make sense to use DC coupled SCCs if they couldn’t communicate with the Victrons properly — especially when configured in “ESS” mode (Victron parlance) — and I don’t think there are any outside of the Victron ecosystem that do communicate.
 
zanydroid said:
Ah ok, non-export is probably fine. SA and SB are for ride-through and throttling response function (Frequency-Watts, Volt-watts, etc). If you're not pushing power to the grid then that is irrelevant.
Click to expand...
Agreed here too. Hopefully they see it the same way!!
 
I did a cost breakdown on Discovery ESS
  • $1950 per 5kWh rack mount
  • $2000 for an enclosure that holds 6 batteries (fortunately this makes it weatherproof)
  • VS $3500 for a 14kWh EG4 outdoor wall mount that can only be used with the 18kpv.
So let's look at this thread for 1741 certified inverters, running on 48V. These are all hybrids, I believe CEC listed and approved for all POCOs in California.
SPH10000TL
  • $6500 gets you a hybrid with 5kWh outdoor battery
18kpv configurations
  • $8500 for 18kpv with 14kWh outdoor battery
  • $6500 for 5kWh indoor battery
 
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