Finally found a UL9540 DC ESS - SimpliPHI 6.6

[wpns]

I did a cost breakdown on Discovery ESS

• $1950 per 5kWh rack mount
• $2000 for an enclosure that holds 6 batteries (fortunately this makes it weatherproof)
• VS $3500 for a 14kWh EG4 outdoor wall mount that can only be used with the 18kpv.

So let's look at this thread for 1741 certified inverters, running on 48V. These are all hybrids, I believe CEC listed and approved for all POCOs in California.
SPH10000TL

• $6500 gets you a hybrid with 5kWh outdoor battery

18kpv configurations

• $8500 for 18kpv with 14kWh outdoor battery
• $6500 for 5kWh indoor battery

OK. But no-one buys a single 18Kpv and a single PowerPro battery, you need at least two batteries to hit the 12KW power output. $8750 will get you the enclosure and three batteries above for 15KWHR, as compared to $3800 for the PowerPro at 14.3 KWHR. Or the enclosure and 6 batteries for $13.7K compared to 2 PowerPro batteries at $7600.

#IfYouTortureTheDataEnoughItWillConfess

 

[zanydroid]

Thanks for the extra numbers. The exercise was sort of to find the lowest cost 9540 system using DC ESS, and comparing it with the dumb, cheaper classic version of 9540

The DC ESS lets you put together a comparable starting point for a 9540 system.

Another data point is 6000XP, $1400 for the inverter so that would be $5400.

Looking back at my earlier numbers, I think the SimpliFi system is always almost the same as the AES on a single module basis kWh basis. Didn’t look at the power output. And the AES has much more expensive rack to buy.

 

[1201]

Thanks for the extra numbers. The exercise was sort of to find the lowest cost 9540 system using DC ESS, and comparing it with the dumb, cheaper classic version of 9540

The DC ESS lets you put together a comparable starting point for a 9540 system.

Another data point is 6000XP, $1400 for the inverter so that would be $5400.

Looking back at my earlier numbers, I think the SimpliFi system is always almost the same as the AES on a single module basis kWh basis. Didn’t look at the power output. And the AES has much more expensive rack to buy.

Have you looked at the options on this page?

Hybrid Grid-tie Battery Storage system

self2solar

www.self2solar.com

Also the cheapest system I think would have to be a min inverter with apx battery. Like $3000 without the transfer switch(only need for grid down use)

 

[zanydroid]

Have you looked at the options on this page?

Hybrid Grid-tie Battery Storage system

self2solar

www.self2solar.com

Also the cheapest system I think would have to be a min inverter with apx battery. Like $3000 without the transfer switch(only need for grid down use)

I haven’t looked at those. This thread is mostly about seeing how DC ESS compare, ie on cost or capability, vs 9540. They are future proof in the sense that you can swap inverter. An example of capability is being able to use 1741 inverters with some special sauce, like Victron or Rosie, that lack a paired 9540 battery. Or the SPH

APX requires a minimum of two based on the sell sheet, so I guess $3000 + base + hat (if it needs those).

 

[Brucey]

The Discover AES Rackmount / Slimline system is also “DC ESS” certified. I confirmed with one of their sales engineers that it would maintain UL9540 status with any UL1741 inverter. The BMS communication also seems to support a broad range of inverters - including Victron. I’m designing a code-compliant system right now including this battery bank and Victron 10kVA inverters (which are now also UL1741 listed).

AES RACKMOUNT | 48-48-5120 | Discover Battery

discoverlithium.com

Just be careful there's a separate sku for the 10kva quattro with UL approval, so would need to wait until prob September when they become available in the channel, the older ones won't be grandfathered in.

 

[A-P]

Just be careful there's a separate sku for the 10kva quattro with UL approval, so would need to wait until prob September when they become available in the channel, the older ones won't be grandfathered in.

Interesting - curious how you heard the UL certificate isn’t retroactive? A couple of dealers mentioned the certificate would apply to the currently sold Quattro 10kVAs (given the UL certificate doesn’t list the new SKU, but rather the model name). I’ve still been debating holding off until the new SKUs are available though!

 

[Brucey]

Interesting - curious how you heard the UL certificate isn’t retroactive? A couple of dealers mentioned the certificate would apply to the currently sold Quattro 10kVAs (given the UL certificate doesn’t list the new SKU, but rather the model name). I’ve still been debating holding off until the new SKUs are available though!

My understanding is that generally the manufacturer receives an "approval to mark" I e they can start applying the label after x date at a specific manufacturing facility. There won't be a label on the old non UL approved SKU. If the inspector is looking for one, I'm guessing that's going to be a failure.

 

[zanydroid]

Interesting - curious how you heard the UL certificate isn’t retroactive? A couple of dealers mentioned the certificate would apply to the currently sold Quattro 10kVAs (given the UL certificate doesn’t list the new SKU, but rather the model name). I’ve still been debating holding off until the new SKUs are available though!

0. Are the Victron dealers familiar with dealing with AHJs? If they only sell Victron, then probably not, because very few of those had to go through AHJs. If you want to buy based on that, get something in writing about how much they're willing to exchange the units if there are permitting issues.

Not all small vendors are willing to play ball with that, for instance PSP wasn't willing to take an exchange on their LSC-04 that I bought from them for arbitrary AHJ reasons, and they even said "(free included RU) CT X is not going to pass in every jurisdiction but it works for most, if yours is the rare one that requires the UL listed of that component, pay us $150 extra for that specific CT with better certificates".

The space of arbitrariness is pretty wide. For instance, quite a few AHJ want the NRTL stamp on the device itself, + the certificates.

1. The MP-3000 UL version had design changes required to meet certification. So you can't really with a straight face say that the pre-UL Quattros, if they need the same change, are the same thing as went through certification.

2. EG4 PowerPro had this issue, they shipped purportedly UL stamped batteries that didn't have stamps, and then a thread here ensued regarding the issue in #32 above. I think the batteries ended up being shipped back and exchanged. Nice.

3. You don't know that the model name won't have some special suffix attached to it.

4. You might see some stuff about retroactive blah online. This is very nuanced and you have to dig into the details instead. Those could, for instance, with units that were stamped with a NRTL sticker + control code. Victrons prior to 2023/2024 generally do not have any NRTL, so it's impossible to use this retroactive loophole.

 

[SolarGear]

Found this thread after going down a rabbit hole of UL9540. Its astonishing how little inspectors and battery manufacturers know about the DC ESS UL9540.

I just got off the phone with Fortress power and they are just as confused, yet their website has an article about DC ESS and their eFlex Max battery has the certification, no inverters listed in the certificate. If the battery was certified with an inverter, it should be listed in the certificate?

eFlex Max Link: https://www.fortresspower.com/products/eflex-max-5-4kwh/

DC ESS link: https://www.fortresspower.com/ul9540-energy-storage-system-for-solar/

 

[Brucey]

Found this thread after going down a rabbit hole of UL9540. Its astonishing how little inspectors and battery manufacturers know about the DC ESS UL9540.

I just got off the phone with Fortress power and they are just as confused, yet their website has an article about DC ESS and their eFlex Max battery has the certification, no inverters listed in the certificate. If the battery was certified with an inverter, it should be listed in the certificate?

eFlex Max Link: https://www.fortresspower.com/products/eflex-max-5-4kwh/

DC ESS link: https://www.fortresspower.com/ul9540-energy-storage-system-for-solar/

I believe the key there is UL 9540:2023 Ed.3

Its approved as standalone without any specific ess+inverter combination testing which was required under the 9540 2nd edition.

 

[SolarGear]

I believe the key there is UL 9540:2023 Ed.3

Its approved as standalone without any specific ess+inverter combination testing which was required under the 9540 2nd edition.

If I understand correct, under the 3rd vrevision of ul9540, you can get it certified with or without an inverter? I know the indoor EG4 battery has the 3rd revision/edition certification