Fire estinguisher for lithium

[jony101]

I also use to think lifepo4 didnt catch on fire, but now I know better. They are safe as far as they can "probably" handle being overcharged unlike lipo/li-ion but you never want to short one out. A while back I was taking a battery pack apart that had the A123 26650 lifepo4 cells (2300mah) , I accidentally shorted one of the cells, which punctured a hole in the side of the cell. I hear pressure escaping and then the cell catches on fire, the fire was very violent like a blowtorch.
I had a small bottle of water, and pour that on the cell to keep the fire from spreading to the other cells. The water also kept the other cells cool. The water would knock the fire down but it reignited as soon as you took the water away. After about a minute the pressure was spent and fire went out. As far as fumes etc, I didnt notice or smell anything abnormal.
It was a worst case scenario but you always have to plan for everything. Now I treat all lifepo4 as being as dangerous as li-ion. I built many li-ion packs and never had any fires from the 18650. I still use the A123 in some jump packs, they are very good cells.
I know from my experience if its 1 or 2 cells and you can keep the fire from spreading, water will work, but you need to keep pouring it on the fire until it stops reflashing.

 

[Hedges]

I have a halotron1 badger extingusher for sensitive electrical equipment.

I bought Halotron for a previous employer's lab. (Spent their money on it because my lab equipment was there.)
At a later employer, I pointed out they had several hundred $k of equipment on a lab with dry chemical extinguisher, suggested they place a residue free one like used elsewhere. They use Ansul Cleanguard.

After reading up on things, Ansul Cleanguard is what I bought for my own lab (equipment now at home.)

Halotron is only effective against fires at a concentration above LC50
Cleanguard is effective at a concentration way below LC50

LC50

Definition of LC50 in the Medical Dictionary by The Free Dictionary

medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com

And I'm a lab rat.

http://www.halotron.com/pdf/Halotron1_SDS.pdf

https://www.smartjan.com/components/com_virtuemart/MSDS/AHP-429021-FE09-ANSUL-CLEANGUARD-Clean-Agent-Fire-Extinguisher-MSDS.pdf

Maybe only a problem if you spend 4 hours in there, but I'll go with non-toxic.
With either agent, once you've exposed fluorine compounds to hot metals, probably best to evacuate and ventilate. Although MSDS says little/no hazardous products of decomposition, instruction booklet mentions HF.

 

[ArthurEld]

So, lifepo4 cells don't burn but if the gas escapes it will burn. And if the energy escapes it will toast everything nearby.

 

[jony101]

I seen videos of lipo and 18650 fires, and I can say from firsthand experience that the lifepo4 will burn similar if not more violent then the rest when shorted out or punctured. Its a worst case scenario but something that needs to be taken into consideration. When I shorted out the cell I wasn't expecting a fire due all the information I read that they were safer. For the minute that the pressure is escaping it will torch everything nearby, if other cells are nearby it would be catastrophic.
All lithium should be treated the same and always have something nearby to put out the fire whether water, baking soda, sand, salt, or fire extinquisher. The fire extinquisher has to be large enough to run for at least a minute because the fire will keep reflashing until all pressure is released.

 

[ArthurEld]

Sorry, so the lifepo4 cells do burn...

 

[curiouscarbon]

The gas can ignite, and short circuit conditions can generate enough heat to cause ignition. A123 cells are among the most power dense LFP cells, so a puncture and short to one being able to ignite the gas is impressive but not surprising. Definitely will keep that in mind. Thank you @jony101 for sharing your experience and imaged of the affected hardware. This definitely underlines the importance of puncture and short prevention, especially with power dense cells.

 

[Zil]

I am curious if this was a electric arcing event or actual oxidation fire.

 

[SolarBro]

I bought Halotron for a previous employer's lab. (Spent their money on it because my lab equipment was there.)
At a later employer, I pointed out they had several hundred $k of equipment on a lab with dry chemical extinguisher, suggested they place a residue free one like used elsewhere. They use Ansul Cleanguard.

After reading up on things, Ansul Cleanguard is what I bought for my own lab (equipment now at home.)

Halotron is only effective against fires at a concentration above LC50
Cleanguard is effective at a concentration way below LC50

LC50

Definition of LC50 in the Medical Dictionary by The Free Dictionary

medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com

And I'm a lab rat.

http://www.halotron.com/pdf/Halotron1_SDS.pdf

https://www.smartjan.com/components/com_virtuemart/MSDS/AHP-429021-FE09-ANSUL-CLEANGUARD-Clean-Agent-Fire-Extinguisher-MSDS.pdf

Maybe only a problem if you spend 4 hours in there, but I'll go with non-toxic.
With either agent, once you've exposed fluorine compounds to hot metals, probably best to evacuate and ventilate. Although MSDS says little/no hazardous products of decomposition, instruction booklet mentions HF.

I have a few Halon 1211 units also. I just use halotron1 because its what I could find and fill locally.

What exactly in short is LC50? I thought Halotron1 was pretty good over my halon 1211 units.

 

[Hedges]

LC50 - half the rats exposed to this concentration died.

I found it interesting the concentration had to be higher than LC50 for Halotron to extinguish a fire, but way below LC50 for Cleanguard to do so.
When I looked it up for this thread, couldn't even find LC50 listed for Cleanguard anymore.
Since it took 4 hours exposure to kill the rats, maybe not such a big deal so long as we get out immediately after using it.
But I prefer to avoid whatever is said to be toxic.

We only avoid the things we happen to know about, right?
Anyway, I picked up the Cleanguard extinguisher for $250, having previously paid $500 for the Halotron one.
I tend to learn about things on the job, then look up what I can about them.
So I read about using table salt for metal fires. And not applying dry chemical fire extinguisher to my pool chlorine (just use water).

Looks like both are noted for being ozone-layer friendly compared to Halon 1211

https://www.bfpe.com/cleanguard-halotron-halon-1211-clean-agent-fire-extinguishers/

 

[Pizzocchero]

Dry Fire extinguisher are toxic?
I don't find any warning about that
On the object i bought

 

[Steve_S]

Many places in the world have banned all Halon products. Halon KILLS People ! You know, that whole Oxygen thing...

 

[Maast]

The short of it is: if a lithium anything catches fire you're not putting it out until it burns itself out. The only thing you can do is keep it from spreading either by removing the heat being applied to the next cell, or isolating the ignition source.
Personally I put in a fire sprinkler head over and slightly in front of my battery bank along with three exploding dry chem balls on the top cells in the rack.
It may burn the rack to a molten puddle but I'll be damned if it takes the house with it and I can deal with a basement with 6 inches a water in it (emergency drain to outside is 6" above floor level).

 

[Hedges]

Dry Fire extinguisher are toxic?
I don't find any warning about that
On the object i bought

Not particularly, but reading MSDS can be entertaining, at least:

https://www.afpnj.com/admin/files/Ansul_ABC_Dry_Chemical_New_Extinguisher_2011_04_13.pdf

"Keep formation of airborne dusts to a minimum."

Don't eat the stuff in large quantities, i.e. 0.645% of your body weight: "Acute Oral LD50 Rat: 6450 mg/kg"

Dry chemical extinguisher is not to be used on a fire involving pool chlorine, because that would form explosive compounds.

Why Must Only Water Type Extinguishers Be Used to Protect Pool Chemicals?

NFPA 10 requires water type extinguishers shall be installed for the protection of pool chemicals. In fact, it demands that only water type extinguishers be installed in areas containing such chemi…

fireextinguisherman.wordpress.com

 

[HRTKD]

I still have a fully charged Halon fire extinguisher. I may move that to my trailer.

Don't tell my wife how LiFePO4/Lithium can burn. She may figure out a way to torch my trailer.

 

[Hedges]

Is your system internet connected?
Someone else might figure out a way to. What fun!
(Just don't get the Israelis mad at you.)

 

[HRTKD]

Is your system internet connected?
Someone else might figure out a way to. What fun!
(Just don't get the Israelis mad at you.)

No Internet connection unless I'm there with my smartphone. I'm on good terms with the Mossad.

 

[HaldorEE]

For ANY electrical room use Class-C Fire extinguishers or "ABC Dry"


Dangerous vs. Safe batteries, Explosion and fire test! - YouTube

I am going to power my firepit with a Li-poly battery.

 

[brock114]

Hi guys
Does anyone knows what type of
Fire estinguisher Is suitable in case
Of burnig of lifepo4 cells?

If you really want to get the proper extinguisher for this specific hazard it will be a "D" class. These encapsulate and thus remove the oxygen from the equation.

Hi guys
Does anyone knows what type of
Fire estinguisher Is suitable in case
Of burnig of lifepo4 cells?

Although a dry chemical ABC will work, if you really want to get the proper extinguisher for this specific hazard it will be a "D" class. This dry chemical is designed to encapsulate and thus remove the oxygen from the equation. These are primarily used for combustible metals, such as magnesium, titanium, etc. and are defined by a "yellow star" with a "D" in the center.
As for where to get them..... you'd have to do some research.

 

[Spliss]

Class “D” extinguishers use an application wand to slowly buildup a covering of powder. You will need to be fairly close to fire for this. Class D units are big and heavy also. Ansul Cleanguard and Halotron are suitable for electronics as previously said there is no residue. As also stated you need to maintain a high enough concentration to keep the the fire out until it cools below its auto ignition temp. These units work best in an enclosed environment. CO2 works well on electronics also (only rated for class “C” fires). Cheap gas but high maintenance and can kill you in enclosed environs. Same as clean agents you will need enough to cool down below auto ignition temps.
BTW the clean agents listed above do not remove oxygen from the fire (like CO2) so they will not asphyxiate you. They work by absorbing the thermal energy of the fire and also breaking the chemical reaction created during a fire.

Quick note on these ‘Halon’ replacements, they do remain remain in the atmospere for hundreds of years even though they are not technicall ozone depleters. If you do have an old halon 1211 unit remember that there Will be very nasty decomposition of the agent. Bromine for instance and they will also produce acids that will cause problems over time for electronics.

Never use an ABC dry chemical extinguisher on electronics that you hope to save. ABC powder will melt and adhere to hot surfaces and will corrode circuits “inside” of these electronics due to the small “fines” making up the powder. ABC dry chemical is a big Nono for airport use as the skins of planes and helicopters will be ruined by it.

A straight BC dry chemical unit may be the best (with exception of class D fires, ie, magnesium, etc.). BC will not corrode electronics like ABC powder will. This is also the cheapest solution. Note the exclusion of the “A“ rating. This will not be as effective on plain class A fires like paper, wood, etc.

As always use the proper tool for the job!
Sorry if some of this doesn’t make sense tapped it out quickly.

 

[HRTKD]

I have one of those older Halon 1211 extinguishers. It's still showing that it's in good shape. I was not aware of the decomposition.