diy solar

diy solar

Fire suppression

Anything might be possible, I think you need to look at all this on a case by case basis, and come up with a practical and reasonably cost effective solution to suit your particular needs. I plan to do this all myself, so its hardly going to cost me anything.
 
I've done my entire system from start to finish 100% by myself. About 9 months ago I knew nothing about solar other than solar panels made electricity from the sun. Between watching Will Prowse, Engineer775, Gain Solar (all three on YouTube), online information and this forum, I was able to learn enough to properly size and install a system. It was an enjoyable process from start to finish.

I was thinking what if's. Like what if buy a shed from the place down the street that sells garden sheds. Turn that into a battery shed, run a heavy wire gauge from the shed underground to the home. I have no idea what size wire it would require, would depend on how much power you're pushing. Plus, just don't know if its that much of a concern to go to the trouble of doing. I see some guys online that have a power shed, it has everything , batteries, inverter, the whole deal in the shed, and they run AC power over to the home. That would be a great way to protect your home from fire but I didn't go that route.

The problem with almost any project now is cost of materials. A pack of bacon is $6 and a gallon of gas is $4. Not sure it's going to come back down any time soon or if at all now that the people selling the stuff know consumers will pay it.
 
Batteries should have quite short wires to inverter. Battery may be at 50V and AC 125/250Vrms, or something close to that. 5x the current from battery, 5x the voltage drop and 25x the power loss for a given wire resistance. You can look up ohms and calculate what happens with surge power starting motors.

SMA Sunny Island manual says not to exceed 30 meters, and has cable recommendations.
If you're concerned about the cost of lumber and bricks, you aren't going to like what 2/0 and larger cables cost.

Far enough from the house that it can go up in flames harmlessly is the thing to do. That may only mean 5 to 10'. Better to have a non-flammable shed, so the battery doesn't turn wood into embers which ride on the wind to your roof.

Inverter could be right at batteries. Possibly separated from them by a "firewall". For your situation, firewall on house side of battery shed.

I paid $150 for a 500' spool of 6 awg not long ago. Recently paid $300 for another, so I now have 3 colors plus ground, don't have to measure lengths of black from one spool and use colored tape. Prices really are up!
 
SolarHead said:
I've done my entire system from start to finish 100% by myself. About 9 months ago I knew nothing about solar other than solar panels made electricity from the sun. Between watching Will Prowse, Engineer775, Gain Solar (all three on YouTube), online information and this forum, I was able to learn enough to properly size and install a system. It was an enjoyable process from start to finish.

I was thinking what if's. Like what if buy a shed from the place down the street that sells garden sheds. Turn that into a battery shed, run a heavy wire gauge from the shed underground to the home. I have no idea what size wire it would require, would depend on how much power you're pushing. Plus, just don't know if its that much of a concern to go to the trouble of doing. I see some guys online that have a power shed, it has everything , batteries, inverter, the whole deal in the shed, and they run AC power over to the home. That would be a great way to protect your home from fire but I didn't go that route.

The problem with almost any project now is cost of materials. A pack of bacon is $6 and a gallon of gas is $4. Not sure it's going to come back down any time soon or if at all now that the people selling the stuff know consumers will pay it.
Click to expand...
Before you consider moving your goodies outside, think about climate. Moving everything outside makes more sense than just the batteries, if you go very far. What part of Planet Earth are you sitting on?
An outbuilding is not a practical option (but I may still do it) in my neck of the woods because temps go from +105 to -30 Fahrenheit.
 
Is there any reason not to have a CO2 portable extinguisher near the batteries and electrical equipment? I see these "IT" room extinguishers that cost $1000-$2000 compared to the CO2 ones that are 1/5 the cost.
 
rhino said:
Is there any reason not to have a CO2 portable extinguisher near the batteries and electrical equipment? I see these "IT" room extinguishers that cost $1000-$2000 compared to the CO2 ones that are 1/5 the cost.
Click to expand...
CO2 is dangerous at concentrations over about 0.5%, which is nowhere near enough to put out a fire.

CO2 or N2 won't do much for a fire that contains its own oxidizer and fuel; at that point you need to take the heat out of the equation.
 
Carbon dioxide (CO2) works well against LiFePO4 battery electrolyte and other liquid fuel fires. Safety of use depends on the details. Automatic total flooding of an unventilated occupied room where rapid egress is not an option is dangerous. But local application using a portable extinguisher can be effective, and is unlikely to be dangerous in a ventilated area with an easy escape route. Exposures of less than 10 minutes to CO2 below 30,000 ppm (3%) are safe [1]. CO2 is nice because it doesn't make a mess, or generate dangerous byproducts. Dry chemicals (sodium or potassium bicarbonate, or ammonium phosphate) are also effective, and don't pose serious inhalation risk, but they make a big mess. Water-based extinguishers also make a mess, and may pose an electrocution risk if applied on a live 120 or 240 VAC circuit, but they are very effective against wood fires. Fluorinated agents (eg, Halon, FM-200, Novec-1230) are very effective against flammable liquid fires (like gasoline or LiFePO4 electrolyte) and reasonably clean but when applied against a large fire will, unlike CO2, generate poisonous gases including hydrofluoric (HF) acid and carbonyl fluoride (COF2). My extinguishers (CO2 and water), and a fire blanket, are mounted on the wall of my solar shed, by the door, diagonally across from the battery and electronics: https://photos.app.goo.gl/XW4ht1G66mk2LRUx7

[1] https://www.fsis.usda.gov/sites/default/files/media_file/2020-08/Carbon-Dioxide.pdf
 
hodgmo said:
Carbon dioxide (CO2) works well against LiFePO4 battery electrolyte and other liquid fuel fires. Safety of use depends on the details. Automatic total flooding of an unventilated occupied room where rapid egress is not an option is dangerous. But local application using a portable extinguisher can be effective, and is unlikely to be dangerous in a ventilated area with an easy escape route. Exposures of less than 10 minutes to CO2 below 30,000 ppm (3%) are safe [1]. CO2 is nice because it doesn't make a mess, or generate dangerous byproducts. Dry chemicals (sodium or potassium bicarbonate, or ammonium phosphate) are also effective, and don't pose serious inhalation risk, but they make a big mess. Water-based extinguishers also make a mess, and may pose an electrocution risk if applied on a live 120 or 240 VAC circuit, but they are very effective against wood fires. Fluorinated agents (eg, Halon, FM-200, Novec-1230) are very effective against flammable liquid fires (like gasoline or LiFePO4 electrolyte) and reasonably clean but when applied against a large fire will, unlike CO2, generate poisonous gases including hydrofluoric (HF) acid and carbonyl fluoride (COF2). My extinguishers (CO2 and water), and a fire blanket, are mounted on the wall of my solar shed, by the door, diagonally across from the battery and electronics: https://photos.app.goo.gl/XW4ht1G66mk2LRUx7

[1] https://www.fsis.usda.gov/sites/default/files/media_file/2020-08/Carbon-Dioxide.pdf
Click to expand...
Nice citation, thanks.
 
rhino said:
Is there any reason not to have a CO2 portable extinguisher near the batteries and electrical equipment? I see these "IT" room extinguishers that cost $1000-$2000 compared to the CO2 ones that are 1/5 the cost.
Click to expand...
purple K, everyone should have one of these in their collection with lithiums. Hope I never have to pull the pin on it.
 
I do a bit of welding, and have both CO2 and a water extinguisher out in the back shed.
Water is a lot cheaper and quite sufficient for many small non electrical fires and well worth having too.
 
Is there reason why the big box office stores don't seem to carry CO2 extinguishers or where I should order one? The most reasonable place I've found to order online was uline.com but then saw there was a $68 shipping charge because it was considered hazardous.
 
I'm more concerned about secondary fire from the battery bank so I think the CO2 would be good for that while reducing mess from the extinguisher? And then a smaller "clean agent" one in addition to that for the batteries themselves. That was my current plan at least.
 
backwoods said:
www.industrialfireworld.com

Get Ready: For Lithium-Ion Battery Fires

UL Fire Protection Engineer Adam Barowy discusses the hazards lithium-ion batteries can present, what can be done to avoid battery fires, and how firefighters can respond when these fires occur.
www.industrialfireworld.com www.industrialfireworld.com
In my research purple k was supposed to be effective but these 2 links say otherwise. Co2 isn't the answer either.
Click to expand...
This is referring to lithium ion and not LiFePO4 though right? so isn't completely relevant.
 
If hoisting an EV into a tank and filling with water is the most effective, wouldn't keeping battery bank in a cast iron bathtub or similar be the thing to do? Fire fighting would mean filling the tub.

backwoods said:
I don't think the chemistry matters, if there is lithium in it; when it's on fire it's all the same..
Click to expand...

My thought previously, and I suggested burying it in NaCl (recommended extinguishing agent for many metal fires.)
Other forum members corrected me, and I read more on firefighting techniques.
If lithium is already bonded to another element strongly enough that it doesn't react with water, then water can be suitable.
If LFP is "insoluble in water", doesn't sound like a reactivity issue. It is other stuff coming from a LiFePO4 battery which burn.

en.wikipedia.org

Lithium iron phosphate - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

"Lithium iron phosphate (LFP) is an inorganic compound with the formula LiFePO 4. It is a gray, red-grey, brown or black solid that is insoluble in water."

en.wikipedia.org

Lithium - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

"Lithium reacts with water easily, but with noticeably less vigor than other alkali metals. The reaction forms hydrogen gas and lithium hydroxide"
 
Hedges said:
wouldn't keeping battery bank in a cast iron bathtub or similar be the thing to do? Fire fighting would mean filling the tub
Click to expand...
The issue with battery fires is the electrolyte gives of oxygen when overheated so suffocating it does not work. Cooling it does work, so you might need a shower head over that bathtub.
 
So suffocating with sand or in a sealed box doesn't work.

Sealed volume with Halon works. But have to wait (days?) for it to cool before venting. Otherwise, as soon as Halon leaves the fuel and oxidizer resume reacting. Explosively, because they have built up in quantity.

I think immersion in water should work. It will allow conduction and discharge any functional cells, rate depending on how conductive it is. Flammable gasses released but cool, just need to vent, keeping below low single digit percentage hydrogen.
 
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