Flooded EVs catching Fire?

[svetz]

I know... most of you (like me) have seen videos of EVs being test driven through flooded channels on purpose, so you're thinking it's complete nonsense.
I'm also sure there are those willing to pounce on anything AntiEV. Both groups will be interested in the NHTSA information at the bottom of the post.

Anyway ... after hurricane Ian ... Florida Fire chief Patronis (have to love Florida, the title is a political postion, he handles the money and is a retired restaurateur who has never taken a fire course) cited a case of two homes burning down due to an EV catching fire after being flooded. I won't give any links, as it's easy to search for and the tale has been growing to where now EVs are exploding like popcorn. The Sanibel Island fire department has become responsible for removing these time bombs. The hysteria ensuing caused the Sanibel Island fire chief to issue a statement to the effect that EVs are tested for these conditions and owners should just roll them out of their garages until they could be handled (they're swamped by calls).

I haven't been able to find the actual incident report for details. Most cars are totaled after being flooded, and some ICE vehicles do catch fire after being flooded but I don't know how common it is. I can see an EV catching fire if there's corrosion, but how long does that take? I'm guessing the owner tried to start it and a short caught fire.

From Hurricane Sandy reports there were 3 fires in over 4000 partially submerged cars.

...In the case of the Toyota's incident, a Prius PHV burned and two other Priuses, a conventional hybrid and a plug-in, just smoldered.

It looks like the fires originated from the low-voltage side:

...the Karmas were not charging at the time of the fire and there were no injuries.[75][76] After an investigation ... the origin of the fire was "residual salt damage inside a Vehicle Control Unit submerged in seawater for several hours. Corrosion from the salt caused a short circuit in the unit, which led to a fire when the Karma's 12-Volt battery fed power into the circuit."

NHTSA responded to Patronis's letter regarding this. The key points were:

1. The Tesla emergency response guide includes a section on handling submerged vehicles
2. first responders wearing appropriate PPE and self-contained breathing apparatus are protected adequately from toxic gases emitted from EV batteries
3. It may be helpful for persons who are not involved in immediate lifesaving missions to identify flooded vehicles with lithium-ion batteries and move them at least 50 feet from any structures, vehicles, or combustibles.
4. Test results specific to saltwater submersion show that salt bridges can form within the battery pack and provide a path for short circuit and self-heating. This can lead to fire ignition.

Naturally, not all batteries are the same... so different manufacturers may be safer or less safe than tesla after flooding. I suspect the bottom line is any car may be unsafe after flooding.

Anyway, would like to hear thoughts from knowledgeable people (e.g., fire fighters, engineers) or experiences if your EV was flooded or caught fire.

 

[MurphyGuy]

That's one way to make sure a flooded car isn't sold with a clean title.

 

[svetz]

tidbits from https://www.usatoday.com/story/mone...s-florida-flooding-what-happened/10553207002/

• In rare cases, flooded electric vehicle batteries can catch fire and burn
• Eleven EV fires have been confirmed in Florida after Hurricane Ian caused extensive flooding.
• An EV that has been flooded should not be driven until it's been checked out by a certified technician.

Statistics compiled by AutoInsuranceEZ found that for every 100,000 EVs, there are about 25 fires each year. That compares to 1,530 car fires in the same number of gas-powered vehicles annually. Gas-powered cars typically catch fire due to fuel leaks or crashes.

Six of the fires were reported by the North Collier Fire Rescue District based in Naples, Florida, and another four by other Collier County fire departments, said Heather Mazurkiewicz, public information officer with the North Collier Fire Control Rescue District. One additional fire was reported in Sanibel Island by the Sanibel Island Fire and Rescue District.

"This is really the first time we had flooding in an area with a lot of electric cars," said Jon Linkov, deputy auto editor for Consumer Reports. Florida has the second-highest number of EVs in the nation after California.

Social media posts claiming EVs catch fire "often" overstate the problem, say experts.

There was also a report by the local paper, the Island Reporter, that several flooded electric golf carts at The Dunes Golf & Tennis Club also caught fire, on Oct. 16.

If the charging station flooded, it shouldn't be used

Are flooded conventional cars ok?
No vehicle, whether powered by gasoline or a battery, is safe to drive after being flooded, multiple experts warned.

 

[meetyg]

My thoughts about this issue:
1. All HV EV battery packs are (supposed to be) water tight. Therefore it sounds strange to me that they can be damaged by water ingress.
2. These HV packs are basically isolated from the rest of the car via contactors internal to battery pack, while the car is not in use.
Having said that, there could be cases where the HV battery pack is connected to the car's systems, while at rest/not being driven:
- While charging
- Cabin preconditioning (either by app or by schedule).
- Some EVs actively monitor the 12v battery. Either when they sense 12v is low, or periodically, they connect the HV battery pack in order to top up the 12v battery.
Tesla does this for sure, some Hyundais also.

So, in theory there shouldn't be any short in the HV battery even with flooding, unless the HV battery was engaged because of the conditions mentioned above.

Of course there is always a chance (small, IMO) that the HV battery housing was somehow compromised or not water tight as it should be.

Another possibility is that the fire started from the 12v system/battery and that fire spread to the rest of the car, taking the HV with it. The excessive heat of the surrounding fire would certainly cause the the Li-ion to combust and causing a larger fire (harder to extinguish).

But the same could have happened with a flooded gas vehicle, causing the gasoline to combust because of an electric short in the 12v system.

In short this sounds to me like either a strange coincidence or just simple EV bashing, like many do, without a real understanding or getting down to the facts.

 

[Batvette]

One obvious difference is that ICE vehicle fires are easy to extinguish. Lithium EV fires continue for hours.

 

[svetz]

ICE vehicles are more than 60 times more likely to catch fire than an EV ref (government data supposedly says up to 100x). As cheap Chinese cars come onto the market those numbers may decrease.

 

[aenyc]

Tesla car battery 'spontaneously' catches fire on California freeway, requiring 6,000 gallons of water to put it out

No injuries were reported. Tesla CEO Elon Musk has previously stated only 0.01% of Teslas have ever caught fire.

www.nbcnews.com

6000 gallons of water to put out a single EV fire.
Thats as much as an average household uses over 2 years. let this sink in!

 

[teal95]

And you cant be sure its out even then. Our work protocol is for any battery that has sustained any amount of damage has to go into a remote fire locker for a minimum of a month as there have been batteries that started ahowing a "thermal event" 25 days after damage.

 

[aenyc]

ELECTRIC CAR FIRES ARE LIKE A TRICK CANDLE AND A NIGHTMARE FOR FIREFIGHTERS! | Firefighter Close Calls | Firefighter Close Calls is the home of the Secret List. The worlds most visited website focused exclusively on firefighter survival

It’s the kind of blaze that veteran Chief Palmer Buck of The Woodlands Township Fire Department in suburban Houston compared to “a trick birthday candle.” On April 17, when firefighters responded to a 911 call at around 9:30 p.m., they came upon a Tesla Model S that had crashed, killing…

www.firefighterclosecalls.com

 

[D71]

Warren Buffet is no doubt very disappointed in his HUGE… BYD EV auto investment as it is not doing so well.

Extreme hazards the old 3volt cr123 lithium batteries used in lot of things years ago - like weapon lights are dangerous too. Had 1 blow up, burned my hand, and my weapon. Do not use those batteries unless high quality name brand - recommend avoid all together. They should have been removed from market. These batteries popping - going into a thermal meltdown was suppressed.

LIFEPO is advertised as being a lot more stable than lithium otherwise it would not exist in my system if only a lithium choice. I would be using lead acid or silicate batteries like sold at Watts24/7. I am still not sure made the right choice with lifepo, but those silicate monsters are to heavy - move like wanted and mount in a roll around steel cabinet = like my lifepo setup are right now.

I really don’t like the fact companies try to cover stuff up especially when they know there are safety issues. Big Pharma has been sued for billions of dollars over their products. They deserved it in most cases and more for criminal - prison term with prosecution. Knowingly. When the noted experts in fields are caught lying then they have abused their public trust. They should be held to higher standards. Look how many times trump has been charged while Biden and family are found with more cocaine in white house. ?

Why aren’t Biden supporters speaking out against Biden? He is blocking you from getting the BYD. Tell him to get his 10% to Big Guy. Have hunter do the deal

 

[Batvette]

Warren Buffet is no doubt very disappointed in his HUGE… BYD EV auto investment as it is not doing so well.

Extreme hazards the old 3volt cr123 lithium batteries used in lot of things years ago - like weapon lights are dangerous too. Had 1 blow up, burned my hand, and my weapon. Do not use those batteries unless high quality name brand - recommend avoid all together. They should have been removed from market. These batteries popping - going into a thermal meltdown was suppressed.

LIFEPO is advertised as being a lot more stable than lithium otherwise it would not exist in my system if only a lithium choice. I would be using lead acid or silicate batteries like sold at Watts24/7. I am still not sure made the right choice with lifepo, but those silicate monsters are to heavy - move like wanted and mount in a roll around steel cabinet = like my lifepo setup are right now.

I really don’t like the fact companies try to cover stuff up especially when they know there are safety issues. Big Pharma has been sued for billions of dollars over their products. They deserved it in most cases and more for criminal - prison term with prosecution. Knowingly. When the noted experts in fields are caught lying then they have abused their public trust. They should be held to higher standards. Look how many times trump has been charged while Biden and family are found with more cocaine in white house. ?

Why aren’t Biden supporters speaking out against Biden? He is blocking you from getting the BYD. Tell him to get his 10% to Big Guy. Have hunter do the deal

I hope youre not trying to appeal to democrats sense of conscience, as if they would actually condemn the quiet monster in the white house.
Theyll tell you things have never been better, the adults are in charge. Hes on the job of lowering inflation, by pushing for student loan forgiveness and spending billions on green energy boondoggles.

 

[D71]

I hope youre not trying to appeal to democrats sense of conscience, as if they would actually condemn the quiet monster in the white house.
Theyll tell you things have never been better, the adults are in charge. Hes on the job of lowering inflation, by pushing for student loan forgiveness and spending billions on green energy boondoggles.

Ever notice Biden supporters never praise him directly…. It is weird. Biden claimed ~81 million reported voters so you’d think we would see them out more. ??? ~81 million voters.

i highly doubt Biden gathered an actual number more then 60 million voters if that.

i doubt the BYD can clear the USA safety standards and the NHTSA will bring the hidden faults to the surface for BYD that is being suppressed.

I doubt the Big guy got his 10% or we would see the BYD with cover for previous video faults.

 

[Batvette]

Ever notice Biden supporters never praise him directly…. It is weird. Biden claimed ~81 million reported voters so you’d think we would see them out more. ??? ~81 million voters.

i highly doubt Biden gathered an actual number more then 60 million voters if that.

i doubt the BYD can clear the USA safety standards and the NHTSA will bring the hidden faults to the surface for BYD that is being suppressed.

I doubt the Big guy got his 10% or we would see the BYD with cover for previous video faults.

Praise him? For what?
I have seen it on twitter, they have to resort to lies and outrageous stupidity.
Example, he lowered inflation "over the last 10 months".

 

[D71]

Praise him? For what?
I have seen it on twitter, they have to resort to lies and outrageous stupidity.
Example, he lowered inflation "over the last 10 months".

So that means they always attack Trump. Nothing to promote for biden. Back 100% to Trump.

the news media spins “ Biden-nomics “ now. Wtf ever that is. Ppl going back to work after covid lock downs was also Biden marked as a success. Putting ppl out of work for not get vaccines was swept under the rug. What the govt did by forcing private employers to pass vaccine mandates was no different then what govt did with twitter for limiting free speech under Biden.

I would call Biden senile or health problematic but let’s say he is someday prosecuted for his crimes - do not want him to get a light sentence based on his health conditions. If he ever gets a sentence which doubt then want his max - 1994 crime bill laws used on him. We already seen Hunter walk. 2 tiers of justice.

I was not a fan of Trump but he was one helluva lot better then the stolen installed - selected president in the white house displaying the gay pride flag right now.

 

[Batvette]

So that means they always attack Trump. Nothing to promote for biden. Back 100% to Trump.

the news media spins “ Biden-nomics “ now. Wtf ever that is. Ppl going back to work after covid lock downs was also Biden marked as a success. Putting ppl out of work for not get vaccines was swept under the rug. What the govt did by forcing private employers to pass vaccine mandates was no different then what govt did with twitter for limiting free speech under Biden.

I would call Biden senile or health problematic but let’s say he is someday prosecuted for his crimes - do not want him to get a light sentence based on his health conditions. If he ever gets a sentence which doubt then want his max - 1994 crime bill laws used on him. We already seen Hunter walk. 2 tiers of justice.

I was not a fan of Trump but he was one helluva lot better then the stolen installed - selected president in the white house displaying the gay pride flag right now.

I will note that California stayed completely locked down due to covid... All businesses... literally, millions of businesses. Until Newsom opened everything up, coincidentally, within days of Bidens inauguration.

Gee look at all the jobs Biden created.