diy solar

diy solar

Funny story about the east-west panel spread-out idea

I have a smaller south facing roof and large east and west, so going to max out the south roof with 9 or hopefully 12 330w panels and max out the east roof with 30 of the Panasonic 330W panels as it is facing the road.
Then I will add more on the private west side when or if I need them.
Lots of battery is my long term strategy as I will be 100% off grid and looking for at least 3 days of storage for hurricane situations here in Florida.
If anyone want's to sponsor me with batteries or inverters (SS or CC) I will happily tell all of our joint adventure of living off grid and sticking it to "the big guys" :love:
 
Overall production means very little, getting charge into the batteries as early as possible, and continuing as late as possible will reduce battery requirements. This is the priority.
Agreed, generally. Batteries will cost 4-10 times more than the solar panels they replace to move the peak energy from the middle of the day to the portions of the day that could be covered by solar panels aimed toward the morning and evening sun.

You can approach this a few ways:
1. Increase the amount of storage (which incurs losses in both conversion and storage efficiency, and is costly)
2. Install solar tracking so the panels are always producing the maximum power possible at any given time (solar tracking is often more expensive than doubling the number of panels)
3. Install additional solar panels aimed toward the parts of the sky where the existing panels have poor coverage (May be the most cost effective compared to tracking or battery)

Battery storage is getting cheaper, and there are cost effective "batteries" such as hot water that can be used, but electrochemical batteries have a much more limited lifetime compared to panels.

Panels will still produce 80% of their rated output after 20 years - over 7,000 cycles (days). Assuming $0.50/watt panel cost the user is spending $0.000071 per production watt per day, or 7.1 cents per kw production per day.

Even good LiFePO4 cells will only last 10 years to their 80% rating, or about 3,500 cycles (days). Assuming $0.30/watt-hour battery cost the user is spending 8.6 cents per kwh storage per day.

So let's say the south only array produces 5kwh more per day that has to be stored that the east and west arrays would take care of. Let's also assume that the east and west arrays are only producing 75% of the energy they would be producing if they were facing south. At this point a lot more needs to be assumed, which would vary by location, but let's try two tests - one conservative, with only 4 total useful hours of sun per day, and one with 8 total useful hours of sun.

With 4 hours of sun generating that additional 5kwh south facing, you need 1.25kW of panels, and 5kwh of storage. With the EW facing, you need 1.7kw of panels and 0 storage. The cost per day of the south example is 8.875 cents for panels, and 43 cents for storage, so about $0.51/day. The cost per day for the EW panels is $0.12/day.

With 8 hours of sun generating the additional 5kwh south facing, you need 630w of panels, and 5kwh of storage. With EW facing you need 830w of panels. The cost per day of the south example is 4.5 cents per day for solar panels, and 43 cents per day for storage, so about $0.48/day. The cost per day for EW panels is $0.06/day.


Now, this is a contrived example - only slightly better than a guesstimate. It doesn't include conversion and storage energy losses which are greater with storage than with direct conversion. Every individual circumstance will be different - not just due to location, but cost/labor tradeoff. Installing additional battery capacity is inexpensive compared to installing additional solar capacity in terms of labor, mounting, engineering, and permitting. If you shop around, you may find $100/kwh batteries that meet your needs. These two things added together would alone make them equivalent in cost per day. Usage patterns will also alter the balance. If the load is high at night (home, sleeping), and low during the day (work, home unoccupied) then overpaneling has no benefit without storage behind it. Once your lot is full of panels, you have little choice but to upgrade to more efficient panels at a higher cost, and increase battery storage. Depending on your lot you might only have spaces facing east, west, or even north for panels - and even a north facing panel will produce power that might be worth the expense. If you have trees providing shade on the east and west, there's little point in facing panels in those directions, their production will be so low that the storage will be a cheaper option.

A better calculation would be cost per usable KWH, rather than cost per day, and calculated hourly for an entire year. Using production and consumption data from a specific location might be able to provide enough information to calculate that.

All that said, I think the general statement "Panels are cheaper than batteries" applies to most, and there is value in fixed installations including east and west facing panels.
 
Panels will still produce 80% of their rated output after 20 years - over 7,000 cycles (days). Assuming $0.50/watt panel cost the user is spending $0.000071 per production watt per day, or 7.1 cents per kw production per day.

1.4 cents per kWh (over 20 years) kW production per day.

I think your math assumed 1 hour effective sun per day. I assumed 5 hours.

But then we have to add in mounting hardware and SCC or GT PV inverter. My total estimate is $0.025 (if RSD required for rooftop, $0.03)


All that said, I think the general statement "Panels are cheaper than batteries" applies to most, and there is value in fixed installations including east and west facing panels.

MUCH cheaper.
 
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Some companies make deployable panels for CubeSat, but simplest solution is a ... cube.
No thrusters required for orientation, just let them tumble (Fat Boy should invest in that.)

3U-min_product_detail.jpg


iu
 
Somebody with money buy or build one of these, throw a solar panel with optimizer or micro inverter on each facet, then lets all meet back up here in a year.
View attachment 150394
Two problems...
a) Where do I buy triangular panels and
b) You'd have to factor in the losses caused by the shading that the kids generate
:unsure::LOL:
 
Hopefully nobody here believes that an E/W array is better than a S array.
Define "better".

Higher overall production may not necessarily be better. When power is generated may be more important than how much overall is generated.

It very much depends on the individual use case and much comes down to when energy is consumed and the value of the energy at that time. There are use cases (like I mentioned earlier) where it can be a "better" choice to have east and west alignment.

I have an example where my Summer aircon consumption would really benefit from West facing panels. Indeed a SW facing (equivalent to your NW) facing array would be a better choice as it would offset consumption during the peak tariff window, which at 42c/kWh is definitely worth it. Having more panels generating earlier in the day is only going to provide a 13c/kWh benefit. I'm quite OK losing 30% of production if the financial value of the remaining output is vastly higher.
 
Define "better".
More production for the day.
When power is generated may be more important than how much overall is generated.
This is true for special use cases.
But in general, more daily production is preferred.

The bulk (70%) of my phase one arrays are west facing. And the rest (30%) are east facing.
I started with the house roof, so it is what it is. (Rotating the house was going to be a pain)
Sadly, phase two is the garage. Which is also mostly E&W (50%/50%) facing. With two dormers that will give a small amount of S facing.
But the big production will come from phase three. All S facing ground mounts. Aimed optimally for winter production.
Once the S facing arrays start going on line. That's when I will be getting the most daily production.
 
If more peak power means clipping or exceeding allowed export, then more isn't better.
If East + West arrays means we can over-panel by 40% without clipping, that is better. Better than buying 40% more SCC or inverter capacity. Using your electronics more hours per day is better.
It does come at the cost of PV array producing less kW and kWh per unit area of panel surface.
Filling battery sooner and keeping it full later is better.
If you have time of use rates, net metering or not, more dollars worth rather than more energy is better.

Now that people have lithium, don't worry about charge rate, SoC, or cycles, due South or whatever gives most kWh per day (after considering mountains, fog, and the like) is better.

Those of us who are Lead @$$ Luddites dance to a different beat.
 
This is true for special use cases.
These cases are becoming less "special" here. It's fast becoming the norm.

Late in the day production is much more valuable for homes, and that is going to be emphasised further as our time of day tariff differentials widen further over the next few years (based on the current distributor tariff structure plans for the next five year period commencing 2024). Tariffs in the middle of the day are soon to become the cheapest.

The recommendation here, if you have a choice of orientation, is to favour West orientation, or at least have some West rather than all North. East is handy too as there will also be a morning peak tariff.

Not only is the value of the energy much (much) more later in the day, in the 10AM to 3PM period we will begin to have distributor charges applied to grid exports which will widen the tariff value even more.
 
Now that people have lithium, don't worry about charge rate, SoC, or cycles, due South or whatever gives most kWh per day (after considering mountains, fog, and the like) is better.

Those of us who are Lead @$$ Luddites dance to a different beat.
The vast majority of PV installations don't have storage. So the time of day value of energy production really matters a lot.
 
And for now, that is my primary usage model as well.
When grid down, plenty of power during the day and now into the evening for charging my small bank.
What I don't have (yet) is east facing array, so my batter would continue to drain for a couple hours after sunup.
 
Agreed, generally. Batteries will cost 4-10 times more than the solar panels they replace to move the peak energy from the middle of the day to the portions of the day that could be covered by solar panels aimed toward the morning and evening sun.

You can approach this a few ways:
1. Increase the amount of storage (which incurs losses in both conversion and storage efficiency, and is costly)
2. Install solar tracking so the panels are always producing the maximum power possible at any given time (solar tracking is often more expensive than doubling the number of panels)
3. Install additional solar panels aimed toward the parts of the sky where the existing panels have poor coverage (May be the most cost effective compared to tracking or battery)

Battery storage is getting cheaper, and there are cost effective "batteries" such as hot water that can be used, but electrochemical batteries have a much more limited lifetime compared to panels.

Panels will still produce 80% of their rated output after 20 years - over 7,000 cycles (days). Assuming $0.50/watt panel cost the user is spending $0.000071 per production watt per day, or 7.1 cents per kw production per day.

Even good LiFePO4 cells will only last 10 years to their 80% rating, or about 3,500 cycles (days). Assuming $0.30/watt-hour battery cost the user is spending 8.6 cents per kwh storage per day.

So let's say the south only array produces 5kwh more per day that has to be stored that the east and west arrays would take care of. Let's also assume that the east and west arrays are only producing 75% of the energy they would be producing if they were facing south. At this point a lot more needs to be assumed, which would vary by location, but let's try two tests - one conservative, with only 4 total useful hours of sun per day, and one with 8 total useful hours of sun.

With 4 hours of sun generating that additional 5kwh south facing, you need 1.25kW of panels, and 5kwh of storage. With the EW facing, you need 1.7kw of panels and 0 storage. The cost per day of the south example is 8.875 cents for panels, and 43 cents for storage, so about $0.51/day. The cost per day for the EW panels is $0.12/day.

With 8 hours of sun generating the additional 5kwh south facing, you need 630w of panels, and 5kwh of storage. With EW facing you need 830w of panels. The cost per day of the south example is 4.5 cents per day for solar panels, and 43 cents per day for storage, so about $0.48/day. The cost per day for EW panels is $0.06/day.


Now, this is a contrived example - only slightly better than a guesstimate. It doesn't include conversion and storage energy losses which are greater with storage than with direct conversion. Every individual circumstance will be different - not just due to location, but cost/labor tradeoff. Installing additional battery capacity is inexpensive compared to installing additional solar capacity in terms of labor, mounting, engineering, and permitting. If you shop around, you may find $100/kwh batteries that meet your needs. These two things added together would alone make them equivalent in cost per day. Usage patterns will also alter the balance. If the load is high at night (home, sleeping), and low during the day (work, home unoccupied) then overpaneling has no benefit without storage behind it. Once your lot is full of panels, you have little choice but to upgrade to more efficient panels at a higher cost, and increase battery storage. Depending on your lot you might only have spaces facing east, west, or even north for panels - and even a north facing panel will produce power that might be worth the expense. If you have trees providing shade on the east and west, there's little point in facing panels in those directions, their production will be so low that the storage will be a cheaper option.

A better calculation would be cost per usable KWH, rather than cost per day, and calculated hourly for an entire year. Using production and consumption data from a specific location might be able to provide enough information to calculate that.

All that said, I think the general statement "Panels are cheaper than batteries" applies to most, and there is value in fixed installations including east and west facing panels.
Fairly certain a cycle is not the same as a day when it comes to batteries.
 
When I first started with solar. I was definitely cycling daily. Now, less than 50%. Eventually it will be less than 20%. That should get me to clean bones in the ground. lol
 
When I first started with solar. I was definitely cycling daily. Now, less than 50%. Eventually it will be less than 20%. That should get me to clean bones in the ground. lol
I think these things will be serviceable for 20+ years if treated right. There are some folks in here that have been running them what? 11-13 years and report 95%+ capacities. I’m SWAGing that a bit as I can’t be arsed to go a trip through forum search results.
 
I think these things will be serviceable for 20+ years if treated right. There are some folks in here that have been running them what? 11-13 years and report 95%+ capacities. I’m SWAGing that a bit as I can’t be arsed to go a trip through forum search results.
Yes, I think that 20+ years is easily doable.
My son will be the one who finds out how long mine last.
 
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