Future of DIY LiFePO4 looks bleak…
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Are those BMS settings or SCC / Inverter / shunt monitor settings?
How are you monitoring your battery SOC % and what are you doing to assure battery is never drained below the lower limit you have set?
I wanted to go the pre built route for my latest purchase, but looking at 48v power walls or rack batteries it was still almost 100% more vs diy. And I over payed for my cells to maybe get a little better quality(luyuan).
BTW, eg4 etc prices are going up not down. The only prices I see dropping are the cheap 12v 100ah batts on Amazon.
Who knows a year from now? I would live to buy a pre built in my next upgrade.
BTW, eg4 etc prices are going up not down. The only prices I see dropping are the cheap 12v 100ah batts on Amazon.
Who knows a year from now? I would live to buy a pre built in my next upgrade.
I’m waiting for one of our members to try one of these: https://diysolarforum.com/threads/t...hich-use-catl-battery-cell.32066/#post-394021
The voltage / temp / charge rates are all controlled by the REC BMS.
The SOC cut off is controlled by a Victron BMV. (this was a left over from my original system configuration - not required any more as LVD of 50V would be sufficient protection)
Hadn’t heard of a BMS controlling charge current before (other than disconnecting when it passes a maximum).
I get voltage / temp and charge rate control from my SCC - BMS just offers cell-level protection for LVD and HVD (which are not programmable in my case).
curiouscarbon
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interesting! considered them in the past but Astronomical Price and No Data Link nailed that coffin real tight.
lol, damn, burn
i don’t disagree though, it so darn expensive and they aren’t keen on user having all the performance data last time checked a year or more ago. before i knew anything about how these systems worked, their batteries seemed like a perfect solution. wonder what it is about their BMS that doesn’t quite operate properly.
for maximum flexibility, data access, safety assurance, i’m doing DIY. it’s taking a long time. but the knowledge gained makes me feel great having a better understanding of what goes into a “safe, high performance, long lasting” battery. turns out it’s rather complicated! haha
curiouscarbon
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some BMS make decisions like “given immediate conditions temperature each cell voltage etc, what is the maximum allowed charge rate?” and send this over CANBUS link to a separate device. most DIY aren’t using this from what i’ve seen around.
so in this sense, the BMS is commanding it, and a separate device actually controls/actualizes the limit
hope this helps
Zwy
Solar Wizard
I read thru all this thread while in the waiting room at the doctor today. Let's look at Sig Solar 48V 100Ah, it is $1749 plus shipping.
I'm currently building 2 48V batteries with 32 280Ah cells. Cost was $120 per cell from Amy with shipping, I bought 40 cells in August, 32 for the 48V banks and building 2 12V banks for my boat trolling motor and other uses. I decided to use Batrium for the 2 48V packs, cost was just under $1200 with the CORE, 2 K9 expansion boards, the fuse holders, 500a shunt, and extra long com extension cables ($10 bucks each, a bargain).
I'll have $5040 so far, figure another $150 for compression fixture, misc items which is quite generous. I'll have $5200 in the 2 batteries., 560 Ah. These are going into a used Hoffman electrical cabinet I paid $200 bucks for.
For Sig Solar to equal that I'll need 5.6 of their batteries. $1749 x 6 = $10,494 plus shipping plus you need the rack to hold them $499 https://shop.signaturesolar.us/products/6-bay-battery-rack
Let's go to this 13.2 Kw battery that Will tested the 10 Kw version. https://www.electriccarpartscompany...4-lithium-battery-solar-energy-storage-system
$5212 x 2 = $10,424 but hey, you get free shipping for the extra $5,224.
So, is the future of DIY LiFePo4 really bleak?
I'm currently building 2 48V batteries with 32 280Ah cells. Cost was $120 per cell from Amy with shipping, I bought 40 cells in August, 32 for the 48V banks and building 2 12V banks for my boat trolling motor and other uses. I decided to use Batrium for the 2 48V packs, cost was just under $1200 with the CORE, 2 K9 expansion boards, the fuse holders, 500a shunt, and extra long com extension cables ($10 bucks each, a bargain).
I'll have $5040 so far, figure another $150 for compression fixture, misc items which is quite generous. I'll have $5200 in the 2 batteries., 560 Ah. These are going into a used Hoffman electrical cabinet I paid $200 bucks for.
For Sig Solar to equal that I'll need 5.6 of their batteries. $1749 x 6 = $10,494 plus shipping plus you need the rack to hold them $499 https://shop.signaturesolar.us/products/6-bay-battery-rack
Let's go to this 13.2 Kw battery that Will tested the 10 Kw version. https://www.electriccarpartscompany...4-lithium-battery-solar-energy-storage-system
$5212 x 2 = $10,424 but hey, you get free shipping for the extra $5,224.
So, is the future of DIY LiFePo4 really bleak?
curiouscarbon
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the price difference between feature equivalent builds may lessen
data ports are not as common as i like.
i strongly dislike OTS batteries with no data port
or even a way to check the individual cell voltage manually
there are some features that are desirable for a few, but not enough for an OTS integration. that’s one reason i come to this forum
data ports are not as common as i like.
i strongly dislike OTS batteries with no data port
or even a way to check the individual cell voltage manually
there are some features that are desirable for a few, but not enough for an OTS integration. that’s one reason i come to this forum
The purpose of the thread was looking out to a year from now (the future) rather than today.
Yes, today Signature Solar may be 5.6x the cost of your build, but a year from now they (or someone else) may be offering something like this: https://diysolarforum.com/threads/t...hich-use-catl-battery-cell.32066/#post-394021Zwy said:
If you follow the link, it’s $1406 for 9kW / 176Ah. So you’d need 3.2 at a cost of $4474 to match your capacity.
Shipping is certainly going to add to that cost but with $726 to play with, your DIY being a much better bargain is certainly far less of a slam-dunk…
If OTS batteries show up here at similar prices to what’s available in China a year from now (like we’ve already seen with inverters and now cells), the 50%+ savings to be had from DIY will be going the way of the Dodo bird.
So while you’ve made fantastic decisions in today’s market, I fear the number making similar decisions a year from now may start to dwindle (hence the ‘bleak’ outlook for the future, meaning ~one year from now).
I feel that although the price of some OTS systems will be lower, the cost/kwh over the life of the system will go up.
Like many other things, those looking for a cheap solution will end up paying more.
That is the way we are headed - pay 1/3 the price for something that lasts 1/4 as long.
Fortunately for the marketing department, there is no shortage of people that think 1/4 is bigger than 1/3, so cheap crappy systems have a great future.
Like many other things, those looking for a cheap solution will end up paying more.
That is the way we are headed - pay 1/3 the price for something that lasts 1/4 as long.
Fortunately for the marketing department, there is no shortage of people that think 1/4 is bigger than 1/3, so cheap crappy systems have a great future.
curiouscarbon
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4 > 3 prove me wrong ? X.99
Zwy
Solar Wizard
We don't know the future, I can tell you when you see many startup companies all jumping into the "new and latest" thing, you find there are many casualties, both buyers and sellers. Best practice is to use proven components from reputable sources and not focus entirely on price.
I've operated my own business for 35 years come January. I've seen many things come and go, some very questionable suppliers and fly by night operations. I'd be wary of any company that comes out with the low priced, "Blue Light Special". Remember, even the company that had the "Blue Light Special" went bankrupt.
Go for it, you obviously want one because it is so "cheap". They lowered the price from $1700 to $1400, that's around 20% discount for a reason. I think you should get right on it.
You're comparing a Batrium BMS battery system with brand new EVE grade A cells with an unknown BMS and supposedly CATL cells which, and most likely are used or grade B cells. I won't even get into the contradictions in that ad, if you're that gullible..........
And then comes the shipping part, if you believe you can have it shipped here for less than what 32 EVE cells cost.......
I read your responses in that thread, you want someone else to take the leap and the risk involved with a transaction with this company. It is quite apparent. Maybe even why you started this thread, to bring attention to the "cheap" battery so someone buys one and gives you that glowing report. As it is so cheap, you should purchase it right now and use it. Take the risk, as it is cheap, you won't be out much money when it fails. Or it sits for 1.5 years while you wait for parts to arrive from China for it I'll guarantee this unit is not very serviceable.
You are comparing apples to oranges, and not even in the same universe.
What needs to happen is you personally lay out the cash for the units you think will take over the market and start using them. Today.
If demand for their "great product" "you 100% satisfied" that is "factory guaranteed" picks up, the price will go up. Just because they might be dumping assembled batteries on the market today to gain market share and push out competition, doesn't mean they will be able to continue to do so or leave prices low, even with Chinese government sponsored dumping. There are things such as tariffs that can come into play quickly if dumping is suspected. You might find assembled products have a tariff, but components won't.
But you are the great fortune teller and know that one year from now this or that will happen. Never count your chickens until they hatch and golden geese don't lay golden eggs.
I live in today's world, not tomorrow's. I can make plans for the future but forces beyond my control may dictate a change in those plans. I make financial decisions regarding purchases based upon ROI in today's market, knowing there is risk involved where factors can influence that ROI including but not limited to quality of a product, future demand, interest rates, the value of the dollar, the economy, government actions such as tariffs and dumping, government regulation and taxation, the costs of shipping, raw material costs, replacement parts costs and even what companies will remain in business and what the quality of the product is 5 or 10 years down the road.
I’m actually not looking for a battery. I’m happy with my 560Ah / 14.3kWh DIY build.
My interest in OTS LiFePO4 is more associated with friends and family members who want to copy my small self-consumption GTIL solar system.
No way I’d recommend any of them put a DIY battery in their basements.
So I’ve been looking into the OTS battery market in which Signature Solar’s GYLL batteries probably represents the best quality for dollar in the US market today ($1500 for 5.1kWh).
That offering is already a pretty significant develop from 18 months ago when I purchased my cells.
Seeing the even lower cost offerings starting to crop up in China gives me a strong suspicion we’ll see US-based vendors like Signature Solar start offering similar wares within the next 18 months or so.
I’m not in any rush and at the moment, the GYLL batteries are my placeholder for OTS LiFePO4 batteries to recommend to friends and family.
But as lower-cost / better-value offerings materialize here in the US over the next 18 months, I’ll be tracking them and revising my recommendations as appropriate…
Or do you simply want to have it made to your own specifications with known reliable components.
Don B. Cilly
Energetic energy padawan
Point of view of a lithium noob (some 40 years on batteries, some six months on LFP).
- I would never go back to lead-acid. At my age, I really don't need the aggravation.
- I bought of-the-shelf. Meaning an actual shelf in a brick-and-mortar place. I'm glad I did.
I did think... if I ever want to have more storage, would I go the DIY route? The more I think of it, the less likely it seems.
Even if I could overcome the main hurdle - no batteries can be shipped to private individuals on these islands (honestly, politicians... to get a replacement battery for my phone/pocket-computer I had to have it shipped to my cousin in Italy while my ex-wife was there so she could bring it over in a suitcase, whereas if I order a full phone/pocket thing with a battery in it, they ship it just fine ) - I still wouldn't.
Even considering
- I am retired. I have time on my hands.
- I do like building things. I have tools. I have a little electronics lab. I can design circuits. I have basic programming knowledge.
- I don't have a lot of money so the appeal of saving some would be real.
- I (still) like learning new things.
Even with all that, considering trial-and error, buying from China... on a side note, I don't use Aliexpress if I do,I use eBay, same vendors, Paypal, better protection..., balancing, compressing, packaging, BMSsing,.. worrying... I can have enough fun with cables, fuses, busbars and monitors as it is :·)
- I would never go back to lead-acid. At my age, I really don't need the aggravation.
- I bought of-the-shelf. Meaning an actual shelf in a brick-and-mortar place. I'm glad I did.
I did think... if I ever want to have more storage, would I go the DIY route? The more I think of it, the less likely it seems.
Even if I could overcome the main hurdle - no batteries can be shipped to private individuals on these islands (honestly, politicians... to get a replacement battery for my phone/pocket-computer I had to have it shipped to my cousin in Italy while my ex-wife was there so she could bring it over in a suitcase, whereas if I order a full phone/pocket thing with a battery in it, they ship it just fine
) - I still wouldn't.Even considering
- I am retired. I have time on my hands.
- I do like building things. I have tools. I have a little electronics lab. I can design circuits. I have basic programming knowledge.
- I don't have a lot of money so the appeal of saving some would be real.
- I (still) like learning new things.
Even with all that, considering trial-and error, buying from China... on a side note, I don't use Aliexpress if I do,I use eBay, same vendors, Paypal, better protection..., balancing, compressing, packaging, BMSsing,.. worrying... I can have enough fun with cables, fuses, busbars and monitors as it is :·)
Absolutely, and that is not even taking into account the issue of safety and an accident occurring while assembling (or a failure after assembly).
If you have professional-level experience and building DIY LiFePO4 batteries is just your thing, that’s going to trump any pricing trends in the OTS battery market.
But if you are a novice not really confident in what you are doing, at best the hobby appeal is at least wiped out by the increased risk versus going OTS (assuming more modest cost gap than we see today).
This brings up the liability concern should a DIY battery in a $200,000 RV start a fire will the insurance company deny coverage due to a non UL / ETL listed battery being installed, at the least you will probably be in for an uphill legal battle. Where if a loose wire connection on a OTS ETL/UL listed or even likely a non listed OTS battery were to cause a fire chances are the insurance company would cover it, even if the loose connection were the fault of the owner..
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