diy solar

diy solar

Future of DIY LiFePO4 looks bleak…

How about some minutia, here. The ones you build, the details and layout, and exactly which commercially built units you've tested your builds against, how you've tested them, and how you can assess longitudinal performance between yours and "X" brand?
16 x 3.2v 280ah cells is 15KWH. 16Cells @$125 Delivered plus $200 for BMS is $2200.

EG4 battery is 5KHW and cost $1500.00 100%DOD is 5KWH.

To equal Mine would have to be 3 EG4s @$1500 = $4500

Its a no brainer.

Yes I get full 15KWh if I want. I only use 70% of it or about 10KWH to keep the stress down.

Plus the cells in the Commercially built systems are laser welded.
If you have a bad cell good luck replacing it.
DIY you pull 2 nuts and replace the cell.

if i get anywhere near 3000 cycles that is 10 years.

Its not Rocket science.
 
The big issue for me is NEC 2020 which requires UL certification on battery systems. Depending on when it it implemented at the local level will influence how many DIY batteries are built. DIY may be relegated to RV, hobby, off grid and unpermitted installations.
In California, if the Successor Tariff is approved, the incentives for batteries may drive demand for more expensive UL certified systems. The Tesla Powerwall and others come to mind.
Most of us do not feed back to the grid. We use the power. My system is on a transfer switch from Utility. SOLAR or Utility. No net metering. No inspections. no hassle. its a "battery backup with solar". Makes no difference to me if the NEC mandates Camel Dung as a standard.
If the government is in your business then its time to get out of there.
A lot of folks are "Guerilla Solar"
 
if i get anywhere near 3000 cycles that is 10 years.

Its not Rocket science.
I get what your are saying, to a point. But just throwing numbers out there and comparing amp hours vs cost and the flexibility to service your own gear is not tantamount to saying you are building superior systems to what some of these companies are doing, and I don't mean eg4 and big battery. All you are really saying is you can build a bigger system cheaper. But until you've got the empirical longitudinal testing and you've actually accrued enough legitimate data resulting from head to head shootout trials, that's really all you are saying. Of course, your not likely to do all that, and neither are most other people, certainly myself included. Sure, you might get ten years from your bank and have to swap 2 or 3 cells and a new bms in that time, and my commercially made batteries could perform flawlessly under identical conditions without needing anything, and you still would have spent less money (a lot less), but I would still say mine was the superior battery, just at a greater expense. I guess it comes down to individual definitions. I suppose the truth of the matter is that ten years from now, it's fairly likely there will be far better, more flexible, cheaper battery options anyway, and longevity concerns of what we are using, buying, or building today will be a non issue, in retrospect.
 
I get what your are saying, to a point. But just throwing numbers out there and comparing amp hours vs cost and the flexibility to service your own gear is not tantamount to saying you are building superior systems to what some of these companies are doing, and I don't mean eg4 and big battery. All you are really saying is you can build a bigger system cheaper. But until you've got the empirical longitudinal testing and you've actually accrued enough legitimate data resulting from head to head shootout trials, that's really all you are saying. Of course, your not likely to do all that, and neither are most other people, certainly myself included. Sure, you might get ten years from your bank and have to swap 2 or 3 cells and a new bms in that time, and my commercially made batteries could perform flawlessly under identical conditions without needing anything, and you still would have spent less money (a lot less), but I would still say mine was the superior battery, just at a greater expense. I guess it comes down to individual definitions. I suppose the truth of the matter is that ten years from now, it's fairly likely there will be far better, more flexible, cheaper battery options anyway, and longevity concerns of what we are using, buying, or building today will be a non issue, in retrospect.
I don't have the time nor resources to scientifically evaluated each and every battery on the Market.

Your idea of superior is a strange one.
If all you want is not to be bothered by your equipment and don't mind throwing money at it then this is the wrong forum.

I haven't seen any commercial system work flawlessly yet.

The unit of measure is not hassle but $, Hence Diysolarforum.

If it where "paythemostmoneyforleastamountofhasssleforum" then I could see your point.
 
Komifornia is its own animal and not representative of the United states as a whole.
Unless they stop selling the components then DIY will continue.
Government interference or No.
You need not regale me on what California is... I'm well aware. I saw all this coming 20+ years ago, and where the testing labs were for it. It's why I moved from RI and went off-grid in the Maine mountains. I've watched it spread from those places like a creeping virus, unfortunately including my state, albeit in the cities, especially Portland and the southern counties. All the same though, battery backup (and to a much lesser extent, off griding) will continue to gain popularity, which will further push the market into more competitive waters, which was my point, and the vast majority of that water will require UL listing. And I'm definitely not saying DIY will disappear, but it will remain niche in the greater scheme of things. Believe me, I'm a big fan of DIY...it's all over my property and my grow rooms. And my vehicle. And firearms. Etc. I highly doubt components will be completely unavailable, but it's not hard to imagine they can become much much harder to get. Hell, not too long ago, I would have said the same about hand loading, but then all of a sudden, primers were all but impossible to find anywhere.
 
Well I think the NEC ought to come up with new code books every half year, Like NEC 2022a and then the 2022b. I just cant get enough of regulation.
 
Your idea of superior is a strange one.
If all you want is not to be bothered by your equipment and don't mind throwing money at it then this is the wrong forum.
Really? So you make your own inverters, panels, and charge controllers too, I suppose? Or do you throw money at those items? I didn't take this forum to be expressly for people who are building their batteries from premade, essentially plug and play parts, based off the work of other people, by and large... Rather, I thought it was more in the vein of people who skipped the middlemen installers and were designing and installing their own systems. Perhaps I'm wrong about that?
 
It's easy to cherry pick, even from ones own experiences, in order to bolster ones own arguments. Social media is all about that, quite honestly. Maybe your doing that, maybe your not, but I would find it hard to believe that every company out there cannot build at least equitable batteries to what the best DIYers are producing, considering they generally have far superior resources available to them and they realize they are in a highly competitive market space now.

Fair comments, my experience is with systems dating back to 2010. For sure i have seen many DIY systems fail. None of the ones built the way mine is though. Where i live, everyone is off grid for power - there are dozens of systems like mine in use.

I can only comment on what i’ve experienced, the current rack style batteries might last 30 years, or might still last less than 10.

Of course the commercial manufacturers could build better batteries, it’s just not cost effective for them to do so. As i’ve said, they have hit the profitability sweet spot by using cheap cells and electronics and hoping they get close enough to the ten year mark that they can wiggle out of warranty issues.

My manufacturer makes batteries for government agencies and they are better quality than mine in every aspect. They are over four times the price.
 
You need not regale me on what California is... I'm well aware. I saw all this coming 20+ years ago, and where the testing labs were for it. It's why I moved from RI and went off-grid in the Maine mountains. I've watched it spread from those places like a creeping virus, unfortunately including my state, albeit in the cities, especially Portland and the southern counties. All the same though, battery backup (and to a much lesser extent, off griding) will continue to gain popularity, which will further push the market into more competitive waters, which was my point, and the vast majority of that water will require UL listing. And I'm definitely not saying DIY will disappear, but it will remain niche in the greater scheme of things. Believe me, I'm a big fan of DIY...it's all over my property and my grow rooms. And my vehicle. And firearms. Etc. I highly doubt components will be completely unavailable, but it's not hard to imagine they can become much much harder to get. Hell, not too long ago, I would have said the same about hand loading, but then all of a sudden, primers were all but impossible to find anywhere.
Until a Manufactured battery is the same price with the same features as a DIY nothing will change.
Every battery Manufacture can all be UL certified.
Its about the $.
The more local governments interfere the more people they will lose.
Many states are going to be losing representatives in the house soon because of it.

They are forcing these changes under a" We are just trying to keep you safe" facade when all they are doing is a shill for the manufactures.

Primers became hard to find because people can see the writing on the wall and started bulk purchasing ammo to the point there was nothing left but the reload market.
 
My manufacturer makes batteries for government agencies
So does Simplphi. I'm not vouching for them or plugging them in any way, mind you. In fact, I didn't choose them for a variety of reasons, not the least of which was a total lack of diagnostic information interfacing which should be standard on batteries that expensive (the phi 3.8s anyway), plus doing business in California is ridiculously expensive and that cost carries over to the consumer, which isn't exactly a good value. My brother does actually have a pair of them though, and they are doing great so far, but it'll be interesting to see how well they hold up over time. His energy needs are far from demanding though.

Come spring, I'll be building a bank for my workshop and I'll be listening in closely. You seem to possess some valuable knowledge I'd be eager to tap into. It would be interesting to build one out as you do, and compare it with the HABs I have now. I'm a sucker for comparative testing and brutalizing equipment to see what holds up and what doesn't. Prolly why I drive Hondas and Kawasaki's...
 
Really? So you make your own inverters, panels, and charge controllers too, I suppose? Or do you throw money at those items? I didn't take this forum to be expressly for people who are building their batteries from premade, essentially plug and play parts, based off the work of other people, by and large... Rather, I thought it was more in the vein of people who skipped the middlemen installers and were designing and installing their own systems. Perhaps I'm wrong about that?
This is DIY Solar forum.
Batteries are just a component of Solar.
If it were cheaper to build all you have mentioned we would.
Most of us are not EE's and therefore don't have the knowledge to do so.
So we are required to do what we can with what we have available.

Money is the driving factor.

If not everyone here would just pay someone to put it in and maintain it for them.

For most this isn't a feel good thing. It is a way to be independent of Utilities and others.

To be self sufficient.
 
They are forcing these changes under a" We are just trying to keep you safe" facade when all they are doing is a shill for the manufactures.
Or much worse...
Perhaps a discussion for another forum, as I'm not sure how kindly the community here takes to sensitive political issues. I suspect you and I are more aligned than oppositional on the subject, at any rate.
 
Fair comments, my experience is with systems dating back to 2010. For sure i have seen many DIY systems fail. None of the ones built the way mine is though. Where i live, everyone is off grid for power - there are dozens of systems like mine in use.

I can only comment on what i’ve experienced, the current rack style batteries might last 30 years, or might still last less than 10.

Of course the commercial manufacturers could build better batteries, it’s just not cost effective for them to do so. As i’ve said, they have hit the profitability sweet spot by using cheap cells and electronics and hoping they get close enough to the ten year mark that they can wiggle out of warranty issues.

My manufacturer makes batteries for government agencies and they are better quality than mine in every aspect. They are over four times the price.
Which manufacturer?
 
Pretty difficult to be entirely self-sufficient and DIY.
If we built inverters from scratch, we'd still need transistors. The technology for a wafer fab is incredibly sophisticated. And the chemical industry, including chemical analysis behind it.
Living in the backwoods you can hunt. You can make your own bullets, especially if you stockpile a bunch of old car batteries or other lead. Primers were mentioned. Suppose you could do flintlock. But can you make gunpowder? Have a way to make Saltpeter?
Only with Bow & arrow or other such weapons could you hunt long term.

Money is the driving factor.

If not everyone here would just pay someone to put it in and maintain it for them.

For most this isn't a feel good thing. It is a way to be independent of Utilities and others.

To be self sufficient.

For me these days, it is the money by choice, because I'm frugal, not due to necessity.
It is more a matter of I do virtually everything myself. Around the house and vehicles, at least. I go to someone else for smog check, dental work, and to buy things. Food, in particular, I'm dependent on stores except for a bit of fruit I pick.
 
Pretty difficult to be entirely self-sufficient and DIY.
If we built inverters from scratch, we'd still need transistors. The technology for a wafer fab is incredibly sophisticated. And the chemical industry, including chemical analysis behind it.
Living in the backwoods you can hunt. You can make your own bullets, especially if you stockpile a bunch of old car batteries or other lead. Primers were mentioned. Suppose you could do flintlock. But can you make gunpowder? Have a way to make Saltpeter?
Only with Bow & arrow or other such weapons could you hunt long term.



For me these days, it is the money by choice, because I'm frugal, not due to necessity.
It is more a matter of I do virtually everything myself. Around the house and vehicles, at least. I go to someone else for smog check, dental work, and to buy things. Food, in particular, I'm dependent on stores except for a bit of fruit I pick.
To be as self sufficient as we can while maintaining certain lifestyle.
Solar has just become economically viable in the last few years for the average Joe.
Some people its money by Necessity not choice.
Smog check is another government mandate.
Some cant go to dentist because of cost.
You see those folks buying the absolute cheapest system they can to try and get some semblance of self sufficiency.
Anytime someone can turn off your standard of living because you failed to meet certain criteria or didn't earn enough money, you start to see them try to find ways to remedy that.
Perhaps some will revert to a Hunter Gather or Agrarian society to be self sufficient but most wont.
Its more of a Hybrid existence.
You would be surprised to know how many people keep small farms (less than 5 acres) now because of the very food issue you alluded too.
 
Plus the cells in the Commercially built systems are laser welded.
If you have a bad cell good luck replacing it.

Just out of curiosity, why is that a problem? You just cut them and drill them, right? They're probably made of something soft like brass or aluminium, but even steel is not difficult to cut, or drill with a cheap enough press.
 
Just out of curiosity, why is that a problem? You just cut them and drill them, right? They're probably made of something soft like brass or aluminium, but even steel is not difficult to cut, or drill with a cheap enough press.
Drilling on those is really delicate. 5mm and the bolts don't seat, 7mm and you damage the cell underneath... or something ridiculusly close like that. There have been threads on it.
 
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