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Future of DIY LiFePO4 looks bleak…

Batteries are not needed for that unless you have some weird rate schedule.
I live in California and have a weird rate schedule.
If that’s the case then do away with them completely.
We did.
My local building code requires a grid connection but does not tell me I have to use it. I use it for backup and to charge two EVs.
 
Pretty difficult to be entirely self-sufficient and DIY.
If we built inverters from scratch, we'd still need transistors. The technology for a wafer fab is incredibly sophisticated. And the chemical industry, including chemical analysis behind it.
Living in the backwoods you can hunt. You can make your own bullets, especially if you stockpile a bunch of old car batteries or other lead. Primers were mentioned. Suppose you could do flintlock. But can you make gunpowder? Have a way to make Saltpeter?
Only with Bow & arrow or other such weapons could you hunt long term.



For me these days, it is the money by choice, because I'm frugal, not due to necessity.
It is more a matter of I do virtually everything myself. Around the house and vehicles, at least. I go to someone else for smog check, dental work, and to buy things. Food, in particular, I'm dependent on stores except for a bit of fruit I pick.

2-bits won’t get you a cup of coffee…

I loathe to pay someone to perform a task if I can DIY. Maybe that’s why I’m middle-class instead of an Oligarch, or a millionaire. So many of those ill begotten. I DIY because it’s always cheaper, and I can do it to the level I want instead of what someone else thinks I should have. And theres always a level of satisfaction that others don’t experience. Plus it gives you knowledge and experience for the next project.

Probly why I didn’t buy Sunrun when they came around with their energy leasing program.

I’m one of the few at the Mercedes dealer that charges their own oil.

The blackwater guy comes off as brash but does make some valid points.
 
The blackwater guy comes off as brash but does make some valid points.
I get that a lot, lol. I just place a high value on directness and open dialogue without the hindrance of tip toeing around emotional fragility minefields which litter the landscape of mass communication these days. I truly mean no offense, and the worst thing that can really happen if any of my assertions are disproved is that I stand to learn something. I'm not above baiting someone into a, um...lively conservation to discover wherein any given truth lies, and if I look like a dumbass in the process, well so be it. Wouldn't be the first time.
 
I think DIY will always have a niche market. The second life market will come and go as well.

Second life on the left (~6kw $850), DIY on the right (~6kw $911). I didn't even need these, but it's fun to play if this is a hobby (which it is for me right now).IMG_1235a.jpg
 
The OP of this thread asked

Future of DIY LiFePO4 looks bleak…

I think the real threat to DIY in North America will not be the lowering costs and supposed better cells and build quality of OTS packs, it will be the ever evolving (an in some instances over burdensome) NEC and local community adoption and code requirements. I believe the latest 2020 NEC requires storage batteries to be UL listed (if not it soon will).

These increasing rules seem to have (at least as a bi product) the effect of diminishing DIY Solar and batteries packs builds making them illegal for home and other uses.

An example would be the 2017 NEC rapid shutdown requirement. Supposedly aimed at saving firefighters lives, but a major fire department official on the west coast completely disagreed.

My guess. Follow the money. Seems there are entities that do not want diy solar anything because it cuts into the bottom line. Do they pay off politicians and the NEC? Over my pay grade. But I wouldn't be surprised.

Just my .02 You're free to disagree
 
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I don't think RSD was meant to kill off DIY, which is likely a small impact on the utilities. Grid Tie in general, maybe. But it played right into the hands of microinverters like Enphase. Eliminated most of the benefit of high voltage string inverters.

Do you think UL listing will a apply to V2H or V2G?
 
The OP of this thread asked

Future of DIY LiFePO4 looks bleak…

I think the real threat to DIY in North America will not be the lowering costs and supposed better cells and build quality of OTS packs, it will be the ever evolving (an in some instances over burdensome) NEC and local community adoption and code requirements. I believe the latest 2020 NEC requires storage batteries to be UL listed (if not it soon will).

These increasing rules seem to have (at least as a bi product) the effect of diminishing DIY Solar and batteries packs builds making them illegal for home and other uses.

An example would be the 2017 NEC rapid shutdown requirement. Supposedly aimed at saving firefighters lives, but a major fire department official on the west coast completely disagreed.

My guess. Follow the money. Seems there are entities that do not want diy solar anything because it cuts into the bottom line. Do they pay off politicians and the NEC? Over my pay grade. But I wouldn't be surprised.

Just my .02 You're free to disagree

Interestingly enough EVE LF280K and some other cells are actually UL Listed.
EVE LF280K UL Listing
 
Don't think cells would be UL listed.
That pages says UL Certified (I didn't even know that was a thing? "UL approved" would be a fraud)
My AGM batteries are "UR" UL Recognized.
A complete ESS can be UL Listed.

Maybe you'll be able to get a BMS that, when used with those cells, constitutes a UL listed system. Maybe some day.
Obviously a bad BMS can make a good cell a fire hazard.
 
If batteries are anything like grow lights, you can have every component UL listed in your diy rig, but because you did it, it won't count for anything.
 
I am sure it will not be long (if it isn't already a thing) before everything coming out of China will be UL approved/listed. Probably "Underwater Laboratories, Inc." Much the way that almost everything auto related is "DOT" approved.
 
The OP of this thread asked

Future of DIY LiFePO4 looks bleak…

I think the real threat to DIY in North America will not be the lowering costs and supposed better cells and build quality of OTS packs, it will be the ever evolving (an in some instances over burdensome) NEC and local community adoption and code requirements. I believe the latest 2020 NEC requires storage batteries to be UL listed (if not it soon will).

These increasing rules seem to have (at least as a bi product) the effect of diminishing DIY Solar and batteries packs builds making them illegal for home and other uses.

An example would be the 2017 NEC rapid shutdown requirement. Supposedly aimed at saving firefighters lives, but a major fire department official on the west coast completely disagreed.

My guess. Follow the money. Seems there are entities that do not want diy solar anything because it cuts into the bottom line. Do they pay off politicians and the NEC? Over my pay grade. But I wouldn't be surprised.

Just my .02 You're free to disagree
Happy to see all the renewed interest in the thread, but as the OP, perhaps it is time for me to chime in on what I intended.

First, the thread is about the future, not the present. Looking out 5 year from today, I suggested there will be a far smaller community of DIYers building their own battery packs as there are today.

And second, the thread was not intended to suggest DIY battery building will be dead. There will always be a niche community of hobbiests or those with specific requirements that cannot be met by mainstream offerings.

Lastly, the thread is not aimed at those interested to follow code. You cannot get a code-approved DIY Lithium ion battery today and you are unlikely to ever be able to do so. So that community needing UL-approved batteries off of a State-approved list are already buying OTS batteries by necessity and the future for that community looks quite bright since the only thing that will change going forward will be that prices will be getting much cheaper.

The intended audience for this thread, the community that I believe will shrink dramatically 5-10 years from now are those who have the freedom to use a DIY battery (no code/permit/inspection requirements) and whose primary motivation is achieving much lower storage cost in terms of $/kWh.

Cabiners/off-gridders & DIY-RVers are probably a good placeholder for the broad community I’m talking about.

Once it’s possible to purchase a close-to-equivalent OTS battery for a price primium of only 25-50% instead of 200-300% versus what can be built DIY, there will be far fewer RVers building their own LiFePO4 batteries (in my view).

So to recap:

Future for hobbiest/enthusiast DIY battery building looks bright;

Future for permitted/approved Solar+storage looks (very) bright

Future for the large community of DIYers who build batteries primarily because it is far, far more economical to do so is the the only community whose future looks bleak (meaning the size of that community is likely to have shrunk dramatically rather than grown once the $ premium for OTS offerings has dropped down to low double digits of % versus what you could build yourself.
 
An example would be the 2017 NEC rapid shutdown requirement. Supposedly aimed at saving firefighters lives, but a major fire department official on the west coast completely disagreed.
I agree. I have heard the same from other fire personnel. RSD did benefit at least two manufacturers of inverters whose products natively did panel level shut down. Ironically the NEC 2020 UL battery requirement excepted Pb batteries but not LFP. Certainly Tesla and a few others will benefit from that.
 
I agree. I have heard the same from other fire personnel. RSD did benefit at least two manufacturers of inverters whose products natively did panel level shut down. Ironically the NEC 2020 UL battery requirement excepted Pb batteries but not LFP. Certainly Tesla and a few others will benefit from that.
There was an article I read back in 2017 quoting (I believe) the fire chief of a major California city, but I can't find it now. He completely disagreed with RSD saying he'd never ask fire fighters to go through a roof with panels live or not.
 
Which might lead to the growth of a grey/black-market on recycled/fake battery cabinets/cases? ;·)
I think anyone thinking they are going to install a counterfeit approved battery and successfully pass inspection is out of their mind.

A much more successful approach is likely to involve passing inspection with a small/cheap Lead Acid battery and then ‘upgrade’ to a large LiFePO4 battery after the inspection has been passed.

So yes, those home solar owners willing to push the rules (of which I am certainly a member) are part of today’s large DIY battery community I’m talking about.

I spent $1500 on my DIY 560Ah / 14.3kWh battery ($0.11/Wh).

It was a learning experience and I have no regrets, but when I next need to add another 14kWh of storage, if I could purchase a DIY battery for under $2000 or even $2500 ($0.14-0.18/Wh) I would go that route in a heartbeat and without a second thought.

This New Year, January 1, 2022, the Signature Solar 5.1kWh LiFePO4 battery for $1500 ($0.29/kWh) is probably about the lowest reference I’m aware of of a mid-tier OTS battery delivering welded construction and reasonable quality & performance, so we’re at somewhere between 200% and 300% for OTS versus the best DIY cost/Wh.

I’ll need to revive this thread every New Year’s Day to track how that price gap closes over the coming 5-10 years…

Looking at the trend, my guess is that this OTS-vs-DIY premium will be solidly under the 200% level by 2025.
 
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A much more successful approach is likely to involve passing inspection with a small/cheap Leas Acid battery and then ‘upgrade’ to a large LiFePO4 battery after the inspection has been passed.
That was a strategy I considered.
 
Don't think cells would be UL listed.
That pages says UL Certified (I didn't even know that was a thing? "UL approved" would be a fraud)
My AGM batteries are "UR" UL Recognized.
A complete ESS can be UL Listed.

Maybe you'll be able to get a BMS that, when used with those cells, constitutes a UL listed system. Maybe some day.
Obviously a bad BMS can make a good cell a fire hazard.

That page is the actual UL directory of products which are listed by Underwriter Laboratories. If you want to check if a product is listed by UL that is where you do it. Not certain how it is "fraud"

The fact is EVE LF280K cells are listed by UL. Listing literally means they appear on a directory or list maintained by a certain organization, in this case UL. That signifies that said product has met whatever standard that organization decided to test it against.

If I am wrong about this I would love some clarification.
 
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This New Year, January 1, 2022, the Signature Solar 5.1kWh LiFePO4 battery for $1500 ($0.29/kWh) is probably about the lowest reference I’m aware of of a mid-tier OTS battery delivering welded construction and reasonable quality & performance, so we’re at somewhere between 200% and 300% for OTS versus the best DIY cost/Wh.

I actually contacted Signature Solar about there battery to see if it was Listed by any recognized organization. The answer, nope, it is not and would not pass inspection.
 
I actually contacted Signature Solar about there battery to see if it was Listed by any recognized organization. The answer, nope, it is not and would not pass inspection.
Did the same.

They told me they planned to get their battery listed this year, so we’ll see what unfolds…
 
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