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Generator gods, purchase advice sought.

Nan_wpg

Solar Enthusiast
Joined
Mar 10, 2020
Messages
704
Greetings generator gods.

a new generator purchase is on the books. I’m partial (but open to anything) to Honda simply for the fact our current genny (2000eu) has served us well for 15 years, running daily 7 days a week during cabin season , 3 hrs in the summer, and up to 7 hours late fall.

I’m entertaining a predator, but I live in Canada, so it’s a minimum 4 hour round trip for warranty, etc.

the current use of the generator is for our off grid cabin. I’m talking actual off grid. There is no grid, no plumbing. We’re talking 2 hours out of the city, off the highway, up a road, and onto a boat.

genny is mainly at night for lights, Tv , cell booster, and soon to be starlink. We also charge a smaller battery pack to power my c pap, and 12v shower. It’s actually quite wasteful.

for now the goal is to build a “solar generator” consisting of a trophy 48v, 100A battery, Morningstar inverter, and the new chargeverter from eq4. It has the ability to dial in the amperage, so I can match it properly to the generator.

the idea is instead of running the genny each and every night, we start off with a full battery. Then every 3-7 days charge it back up. Eventually I’ll add a charge controller. But,for now no array.

trophy recommends charging “up to” 50A. Less is better.

as I said I like Honda. Not sure if I should stick in the 2200 range, or bump up to the 3000, or 3200. I looked at the 7000i. Seems like a bit overkill for my needs. It has 240, but I’m not sure if it’s an advantage for my needs or not.

I’m a bit confused with Hondas 3000 range. They offer 3 models. Very similar, but the new 3200 has a lower running wattage than the older 3000.

so, gods of generation what say you?

honda? Yes? No? how big? 240?

noise isn’t a deal breaker but as a courtesy to neighbors I’d like quiet (although they won’t have to put up with nightly generator usage).

I know there’s not so apparent differences with the Hondas, I.e some are carb’d, some have a fuel pump. Not sure if any have EFI. The new 3200 manual talks,about timing belts. Yikes. Our old 2000 has had oil changes, spark plug changes, and I think a couple pull strings. That’s it.

in a nutshell I need up to 50A of charging. I want reliable, somewhat quiet, and something that makes sense in Terms of peak efficiency, fuel economy, etc.

looking for that “sweet spot”. As for money, I’ll gladly spend what I need to, but dont Like spending more than I have to.
 
Greetings generator gods.

a new generator purchase is on the books. I’m partial (but open to anything) to Honda simply for the fact our current genny (2000eu) has served us well for 15 years, running daily 7 days a week during cabin season , 3 hrs in the summer, and up to 7 hours late fall.

I’m entertaining a predator, but I live in Canada, so it’s a minimum 4 hour round trip for warranty, etc.

the current use of the generator is for our off grid cabin. I’m talking actual off grid. There is no grid, no plumbing. We’re talking 2 hours out of the city, off the highway, up a road, and onto a boat.

genny is mainly at night for lights, Tv , cell booster, and soon to be starlink. We also charge a smaller battery pack to power my c pap, and 12v shower. It’s actually quite wasteful.

for now the goal is to build a “solar generator” consisting of a trophy 48v, 100A battery, Morningstar inverter, and the new chargeverter from eq4. It has the ability to dial in the amperage, so I can match it properly to the generator.

the idea is instead of running the genny each and every night, we start off with a full battery. Then every 3-7 days charge it back up. Eventually I’ll add a charge controller. But,for now no array.

trophy recommends charging “up to” 50A. Less is better.

as I said I like Honda. Not sure if I should stick in the 2200 range, or bump up to the 3000, or 3200. I looked at the 7000i. Seems like a bit overkill for my needs. It has 240, but I’m not sure if it’s an advantage for my needs or not.

I’m a bit confused with Hondas 3000 range. They offer 3 models. Very similar, but the new 3200 has a lower running wattage than the older 3000.

so, gods of generation what say you?

honda? Yes? No? how big? 240?

noise isn’t a deal breaker but as a courtesy to neighbors I’d like quiet (although they won’t have to put up with nightly generator usage).

I know there’s not so apparent differences with the Hondas, I.e some are carb’d, some have a fuel pump. Not sure if any have EFI. The new 3200 manual talks,about timing belts. Yikes. Our old 2000 has had oil changes, spark plug changes, and I think a couple pull strings. That’s it.

in a nutshell I need up to 50A of charging. I want reliable, somewhat quiet, and something that makes sense in Terms of peak efficiency, fuel economy, etc.

looking for that “sweet spot”. As for money, I’ll gladly spend what I need to, but dont Like spending more than I have to.
Well, 48V 50A is 2400W, so, factoring in losses with the charger, i wouldnt go below 3200W.
 
Well, 48V 50A is 2400W, so, factoring in losses with the charger, i wouldnt go below 3200W.
using the Honda 3200i I calculated charging @37.5A. That was the “sweet spot”.

to charge @50A I’d likely go with the big boy Honda. Not sure if that’s warranted or not. It may be, factoring in fuel usage, running a big boy genny at a lower capacity.

any thoughts on Honda, or predator? I’ve been reading a lot of positive on predator. I don’t need to be sold on Honda though.
 
I have a 20yr old eu3000is and it won't quite do 45a @ 52v charging. Remember there are 10%? losses from AC -> DC so 45a@52v = 2,340w DC which is more like 2,574w on the AC side. Current eu3000is are rated 2800w as in this spec - https://powerequipment.honda.com/generators/models/eu3000is#Specs - but mine won't quite do this much.

Also, they say that ~80% of continuous load specs = best fuel economy. For eu3000is (as an example), that would be 2800w * .8 (fuel effeciciency) = 2240 * .9 (AC->DC losses) = 2016w / 50v = 40.3a max charging.
 
I have a 20yr old eu3000is and it won't quite do 45a @ 52v charging. Remember there are 10%? losses from AC -> DC so 45a@52v = 2,340w DC which is more like 2,574w on the AC side. Current eu3000is are rated 2800w as in this spec - https://powerequipment.honda.com/generators/models/eu3000is#Specs - but mine won't quite do this much.

Also, they say that ~80% of continuous load specs = best fuel economy. For eu3000is (as an example), that would be 2800w * .8 (fuel effeciciency) = 2240 * .9 (AC->DC losses) = 2016w / 50v = 40.3a max charging.
David poz did an unboxing of the eq4 chargeverter. Using his calculation formula (max charging, and most efficient charging, then taking an average) I came up with a 37.5 charging current for the 3200i.

what are you using as a charger? If you were buying a genny today what would you buy?

looking at the 3000 Honda range there’s the 3000i ES, 3000i, and 3200i. the ES model is 6db quieter, ES and 3000i have same amp output on the 3 prong (3000i is less). 3200i has less overall output than the 3oooi ES.

id be leaning towards the 3000i ES. (If sticking with 3000 range)
 
Have you not considered Champion Generators ? I've been using Champion Power Equipment (Gennies +) for over 15 years and they have always served very well and without issues. Even my 9600W Monster is now 10 years old with thousands of hours on it (It built 2 offgrid houses +).

My current Battery Bank is 24V/1200AH consisting of 6 battery packs in Parallel, I use my Samlex Inverter/Charger set at 80A Charge Rate which only pulls 120V/23A (2700W) while also providing PassThough so it floats up & down a little. While I can use the "Monster" if needed, it is only ModSine so it is not the cleanest power factor, therefore I use a Champion 4650W Inverter Generator to charge my bank when needed.

The Champion 4650W Inverter Genny puts out a clean steady 60Hz, run very quietly and sips gas. The one I have also comes in a Dual Fuel Model Gas/Propane. Changing the oil is very simple (Only need 500ml) & easy as is maintaining the air filter. I use Synthetic 0W40 Oil only and it makes a huge difference in such equipment, especially when these have to run in our Below Zero's.

Half the cost of a Honda, reliable & dependable and can also be Paralleled if needed.
Available at Canadian Tire (and other companies) and they carry the parts & accessories as well.


BTW: I used the old Monster Genny while buiding my home and other structures as my power source for tools & equipment and it has had a fairly rough & tough life but it never once let me down ... BUT ... I am religious about oil changes & cleaning the filters ! I did try 2 Other Inverter Generators (1 King Canada 3000W which lasted 1 year and blew it's inverter, 1 Energizer 3000W which fried it's electronics within 1 month, repaired but never right again and junked) which amounted to about $3000 of Lessons Learned and THEN I bought the Champion Inverter Genny (should have done 1st for $1200) and have not looked back other than to kick myself a wee bit once in a while to remind myself, not to mess up again.

Something to Ponder:
If you are Charging a battery system by Genset which is connected to an Inverter, and the Inverter is also allowing PassThrough then you need to ensure that the genset can handle the extra demands above the Charge requirement. With an Inverter Genny like I am describing above are capable of 4650W Output and can ramp up to that when "needed" otherwise it only provides what is demanded and that also controls the Inverter RPM and fuel usage. The big point is that you want to have not only enough Watts/Amps to charge the battery system but to also cover any running overhead while charging. While I am charging, everything is still running so the Well Pump or Microwave / Coffee Maker and other heavier loads still happen and the genny can handle quite nicely.

* The Samlex EVO Inverter/Chargers are advanced High Efficiency, Low Frequency devices that have many extra features & capabilities that are not typically available in many devices.

Hope it helps, Good Luck.
 
Have you not considered Champion Generators ? I've been using Champion Power Equipment (Gennies +) for over 15 years and they have always served very well and without issues. Even my 9600W Monster is now 10 years old with thousands of hours on it (It built 2 offgrid houses +).

My current Battery Bank is 24V/1200AH consisting of 6 battery packs in Parallel, I use my Samlex Inverter/Charger set at 80A Charge Rate which only pulls 120V/23A (2700W) while also providing PassThough so it floats up & down a little. While I can use the "Monster" if needed, it is only ModSine so it is not the cleanest power factor, therefore I use a Champion 4650W Inverter Generator to charge my bank when needed.

The Champion 4650W Inverter Genny puts out a clean steady 60Hz, run very quietly and sips gas. The one I have also comes in a Dual Fuel Model Gas/Propane. Changing the oil is very simple (Only need 500ml) & easy as is maintaining the air filter. I use Synthetic 0W40 Oil only and it makes a huge difference in such equipment, especially when these have to run in our Below Zero's.

Half the cost of a Honda, reliable & dependable and can also be Paralleled if needed.
Available at Canadian Tire (and other companies) and they carry the parts & accessories as well.


BTW: I used the old Monster Genny while buiding my home and other structures as my power source for tools & equipment and it has had a fairly rough & tough life but it never once let me down ... BUT ... I am religious about oil changes & cleaning the filters ! I did try 2 Other Inverter Generators (1 King Canada 3000W which lasted 1 year and blew it's inverter, 1 Energizer 3000W which fried it's electronics within 1 month, repaired but never right again and junked) which amounted to about $3000 of Lessons Learned and THEN I bought the Champion Inverter Genny (should have done 1st for $1200) and have not looked back other than to kick myself a wee bit once in a while to remind myself, not to mess up again.

Something to Ponder:
If you are Charging a battery system by Genset which is connected to an Inverter, and the Inverter is also allowing PassThrough then you need to ensure that the genset can handle the extra demands above the Charge requirement. With an Inverter Genny like I am describing above are capable of 4650W Output and can ramp up to that when "needed" otherwise it only provides what is demanded and that also controls the Inverter RPM and fuel usage. The big point is that you want to have not only enough Watts/Amps to charge the battery system but to also cover any running overhead while charging. While I am charging, everything is still running so the Well Pump or Microwave / Coffee Maker and other heavier loads still happen and the genny can handle quite nicely.

* The Samlex EVO Inverter/Chargers are advanced High Efficiency, Low Frequency devices that have many extra features & capabilities that are not typically available in many devices.

Hope it helps, Good Luck.

for some reason, I’ve never considered champion. I see them at Canadian tire all the time. I’ll have another look.

yes, I am aware of the pass through and additional strain on the genny, as well as possible power degrading if the genny. The “chargeverter” I lost in my OP is a dedicated charger from current connected.

I originally was going to simply stick a Chinese AIO on a handcart.

was Just thinking the Hondas are pricey, and definately,puts me in territory of just charging with an array.

I have another thread asking about solar needs for our,cabin.

it’s a bit complicated because it’s a family shared cabin. I want solar as I’m tired of hauling fuel, and my little battery pack back and forth.

but the other people sharing the cabin never seem to have money to help pay for things, and because they didn’t “earn” anything they don’t care, or,show the level,of respect for things they didn’t pay for.

instaling and then locking up a solar system would start WW3 thus a powerful and “take it home for the winter” system is on order.

the champion generators, do,they come on sale often (like most cdn tire stuff)?
 
My champion dual fuel has been a trooper. The gas cap it taped off. It will never see liquid fuel. I hate the smell of gas in the cabin, boat, jeep. And the exhaust is better (smelling) as well.
 
What’s the fuel economy on propane?

we have to transport propane by boat to our cabin (oven and fridge are propane). We use I think 2- 100lb bottles per year.
 
Yes, Canadian PoofPoof puts them on sale regularly and that is when I bought mine for $1200 a couple of years ago. I believe it has about 350 hours on it now as I also used it to run my tablesaw & compressor last fall when putting up the Toolshed. 5 Gallons of gas does last me about 7 hours when charging my battery bank which takes it from 40% to 100%. Mine is not Dual Fuel so I cannot speak to it's LPG Consumption but they have that info in the product details.

Family - You can pick & choose friends & enemies but Family is something that people can get stuck with... Even worse when some feel they are entitled to everything and anything because they are family but will never contribute to anything because they are "special"... I had a similar situation and finally "unloaded" that pile in 2009 and we haven't spoken since... He is still stuck in his Status Quo of 2009 and even more miserable than before (his own kids won't have anything to do with him anymore either)... sometime cutting loose is really hard but pays off later in spades.
 
I’m really digging the dual fuel!

is it a Honda engine?

wondering about the carb. What’s the thing bolted to the side of the bowl?? I see the fuel line, primer line, drain, etc. can’t figure the thing out.
 
Champion does not use 3rd party parts, they design & manufacture everything themselves. I've used various gear from them including log splitters etc and everything I have bought or Used that was Champion Made was all good. I do not cheap out on my gear as it is My Survival way up here... For Example my Main Chainsaw is a Husqvarna XP576AT and my Snow Blower is Ariens ... kinda like my Solar Gear is Midnite Solar, Samlex etc... no cheapo crap that I cannot depend on to keep me safe & alive.
 
I went with the EU7000is. The pain from the purchase was sharp but short. I converted it to tri-fuel (for natural gas use), the tank sits empty and I don't really need to store much if any gasoline. The good thing about Honda generators is that they retain much of their value, so the initial purchase should be viewed in terms of that aspect. I consider it insurance and wanted the best, while still being portable so I can take it with me when I sell the house.

My Honda has been relegated to recharge duty for when my Growatt 12k & Lifepower4 20kWh rack mounted battery system runs low. I'm considering one of those chargeverters so I can send the Honda's power directly to the batteries while the Growatt (which has much higher surge capacity) is powering the house.
 
Yes, Canadian PoofPoof puts them on sale regularly and that is when I bought mine for $1200 a couple of years ago. I believe it has about 350 hours on it now as I also used it to run my tablesaw & compressor last fall when putting up the Toolshed. 5 Gallons of gas does last me about 7 hours when charging my battery bank which takes it from 40% to 100%. Mine is not Dual Fuel so I cannot speak to it's LPG Consumption but they have that info in the product details.

Family - You can pick & choose friends & enemies but Family is something that people can get stuck with... Even worse when some feel they are entitled to everything and anything because they are family but will never contribute to anything because they are "special"... I had a similar situation and finally "unloaded" that pile in 2009 and we haven't spoken since... He is still stuck in his Status Quo of 2009 and even more miserable than before (his own kids won't have anything to do with him anymore either)... sometime cutting loose is really hard but pays off later in spades.
One particular family member is a 40 year old unemployed dude, still living in mommies basement.

because he doesn’t work he’s always at the cabin. Because he’s always at the cabin he uses everything. Because he has no money (but can afford beer, cigarettes, and pot) he doesn’t pay for anything.
he is lazy and won’t do anything around the cabin.

it’s my wife’s family’s place. She’s emotionally attached to it. I’d give it up in a heartbeat and buy our own place that doesn’t have its own 40 year old doofus. She can’t let go of the place. Recently lost her dad, so lots of memories at this place.

I get it. Kinda. But not really.

you,said your charger pulls 2700 watts while charging @80A. That’s pretty decent.

I did look at samlex. Looks well made, and I like that it has the additional dc input. Nice place to instal a charge controller. Their 48v inverter charge is confusing. It takes 120/240 input but only outputs 2000 watts with a 120 input.

is this typical? (I.e it needs 240 to pass 240?).

I like morningstars new inverters (and their charge controller). No fans. Just nice, large heat sinks. I hate fans. They spread dust into everything.

you are in Ontario? Our place is pretty much right on the Manitoba/Ontario border.
 
Champion does not use 3rd party parts, they design & manufacture everything themselves. I've used various gear from them including log splitters etc and everything I have bought or Used that was Champion Made was all good. I do not cheap out on my gear as it is My Survival way up here... For Example my Main Chainsaw is a Husqvarna XP576AT and my Snow Blower is Ariens ... kinda like my Solar Gear is Midnite Solar, Samlex etc... no cheapo crap that I cannot depend on to keep me safe & alive.
I think you and I are brothers from different mothers. Last fall I bought an Ariens platinum 24”. Absolutely love the thing. Would have went with a pro model 28” or bigger but all I can fit in my garage was a 24”. I wanted the most powerful thrower for that size. Ariens it is.
 
Hard to say on the fuel economy. I ran my 7500 watt about 6 hours on a 20 lb tank when building.
 
One particular family member is a 40 year old unemployed dude, still living in mommies basement.

because he doesn’t work he’s always at the cabin. Because he’s always at the cabin he uses everything. Because he has no money (but can afford beer, cigarettes, and pot) he doesn’t pay for anything.
he is lazy and won’t do anything around the cabin.

it’s my wife’s family’s place. She’s emotionally attached to it. I’d give it up in a heartbeat and buy our own place that doesn’t have its own 40 year old doofus. She can’t let go of the place. Recently lost her dad, so lots of memories at this place.

I get it. Kinda. But not really.

you,said your charger pulls 2700 watts while charging @80A. That’s pretty decent.

I did look at samlex. Looks well made, and I like that it has the additional dc input. Nice place to instal a charge controller. Their 48v inverter charge is confusing. It takes 120/240 input but only outputs 2000 watts with a 120 input.

is this typical? (I.e it needs 240 to pass 240?).

I like morningstars new inverters (and their charge controller). No fans. Just nice, large heat sinks. I hate fans. They spread dust into everything.

you are in Ontario? Our place is pretty much right on the Manitoba/Ontario border.
I'm near Algonquin Park out in the Wilds with deer, moose, bear & a huge flock of wild turkeys in my forest. Not to mention all the other critters....

I totally get ya on the 40 Year old Baggage carrier...

I know what you mean with your wife being so attached and all the memories that go with it but at some point both of you will have to make choices about what is best for you as a couple/family, and the memories you want for your family including your kids.

I use a Samlex EVO 4024, 24V/4000W with dual AC Inputs + DC Solar Input (Max 50A), although being offgrid, I only use 1 AC Generator Input but not the DC Solar Input. My Solar get's it's final update soon (when the S*** is gone) so it will be a Midnite Classic-200 and Midnite Classic-150 in parallel giving me 170A Charging Current from 2 solar arrays. The new Samlex 240V models came out last fall and I am not familiar with them.

BTW: I am Full Time Off-Grid and only run a 24V System that provides me with 120V. I presently do not have anything that needs 240V but when I built my place, I wired everything to be 240V ready. My life has changed a lot and now that I know I have some more years left ahead for me, the 240V Option may get exercised when a proper EV 4x4 Truck finally reaches our market space that suits my needs & requirements. I will NOT be buying another Petro Fuelled vehicle, so I will keep my Dodge Ram SLT till I can replace it with all electric.
 
Both of my Champion gensets have out performed and outlasted my Honda...by a large margin.
I would buy a Champion over a Honda any day!
Whatever charging rate you decide on...double the genset wattage. You want your genset running at about 50% capacity for longevity and fuel efficiency. And that 50% mark gives you some headroom if an unexpected temporary need comes along.
Also, I would oversize all everything electrical between the genset and the system. Don't forget grounding issues.
I would look at dual fuel. Gasoline is fine...but has drawback. Propane runs at about 30% less energy but doesn't have long-term storage issues. I also would not use the smaller 5gal tanks. I am pushing 70 and have no problem handling the 25gal tanks.
When I bought my first Champion I asked their tech folks what parts wore out and/or failed most frequently and the PM parts...I bought a pare of each to have on hand. Served me well. I also followed their break-in process exactly...with one exception. I used Lucas Oil 10063 Engine Break-In Oil Additive - TB Zinc Plus. I also kept using it on each oil change. I have had zero issues in thousands of hours of genset running in all sort of terrible abusive weather conditions.
 
I'm near Algonquin Park out in the Wilds with deer, moose, bear & a huge flock of wild turkeys in my forest. Not to mention all the other critters....

I totally get ya on the 40 Year old Baggage carrier...

I know what you mean with your wife being so attached and all the memories that go with it but at some point both of you will have to make choices about what is best for you as a couple/family, and the memories you want for your family including your kids.

I use a Samlex EVO 4024, 24V/4000W with dual AC Inputs + DC Solar Input (Max 50A), although being offgrid, I only use 1 AC Generator Input but not the DC Solar Input. My Solar get's it's final update soon (when the S*** is gone) so it will be a Midnite Classic-200 and Midnite Classic-150 in parallel giving me 170A Charging Current from 2 solar arrays. The new Samlex 240V models came out last fall and I am not familiar with them.

BTW: I am Full Time Off-Grid and only run a 24V System that provides me with 120V. I presently do not have anything that needs 240V but when I built my place, I wired everything to be 240V ready. My life has changed a lot and now that I know I have some more years left ahead for me, the 240V Option may get exercised when a proper EV 4x4 Truck finally reaches our market space that suits my needs & requirements. I will NOT be buying another Petro Fuelled vehicle, so I will keep my Dodge Ram SLT till I can replace it with all electric.

unfortunately for the time being I’m stuck with the baggage carrier. We had a huge family blowout. (mum wanted to,sell us 1/2 the cabin and BC (baggage carrier… I like that, lol) would get the other half for,free when mum dies. Umm I don’t think so. We countered with an offer,to,buy the whole place.

BC,lost his mind and mum was worried we’d kick him off the property. Truth be told he’d always be welcomed, BUT the amount of work expected from him would be proportionate to the time he spends at the cabin. (Pretty standard cabin 101).

mum only wanted to sell 90% and BC would get (for free) 10%. That, or 100% of the cabin but only if we gave BC a life interest in the property, LOLOLOL. I’m not making this up.

we said no. Mum threatened,to sell to an outsider. I,said,go,right,ahead. WW3 broke out. Didn’t speak,for 3 months.

2 years later with us not going out to the cabin BC realizes it’s a lot of work to run a cabin. Everyone wants us back. But I’m not comfortable coming out as a guest. Mum will back her baby BC and crap on me so the only way I’d return is if we have titled rights to the property.

since 100% of the cabin is off the table, how much do I want to buy. And how much do I pay?? utilizing the power of the internet I searched 100’s of cabins for sale. I was unable to find one that comes with a fridge, stove, and 40,year old unemployed man who will be there full time drinking beer, smoking pot and sleeping up to 17 hours a day. Lol. I’m not making this up either.

I bought 10% stake in the cabin. I don’t want to, but I’m trying to pull a rabbit out of the hat. We have options as we have property rights. We can build our own little “bunkie” and be independent of the main cabin as it goes to crap due to lack of maintenance.

we don’t need much. 200 sq feet of bunk, and a pontoon boat. Life is good.
 
Both of my Champion gensets have out performed and outlasted my Honda...by a large margin.
I would buy a Champion over a Honda any day!
Whatever charging rate you decide on...double the genset wattage. You want your genset running at about 50% capacity for longevity and fuel efficiency. And that 50% mark gives you some headroom if an unexpected temporary need comes along.
Also, I would oversize all everything electrical between the genset and the system. Don't forget grounding issues.
I would look at dual fuel. Gasoline is fine...but has drawback. Propane runs at about 30% less energy but doesn't have long-term storage issues. I also would not use the smaller 5gal tanks. I am pushing 70 and have no problem handling the 25gal tanks.
When I bought my first Champion I asked their tech folks what parts wore out and/or failed most frequently and the PM parts...I bought a pare of each to have on hand. Served me well. I also followed their break-in process exactly...with one exception. I used Lucas Oil 10063 Engine Break-In Oil Additive - TB Zinc Plus. I also kept using it on each oil change. I have had zero issues in thousands of hours of genset running in all sort of terrible abusive weather conditions.

I use canned (trufuel, Aspen, etc) exclusively for storage, and things used infrequently (snowthrowers). It keeps forever. But I absolutely see the value in propane. It stores forever.

definately looking into these champion units. I always thought them to be a budget, low quality product.
 
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