Had a blip of an accidental short at the Epever controller now wont charge Lifepo4 but will FLDed

[Frank1966]

Hi everyone,
I give up on trying to find an answer online and read many informative tips on here in the hopes that someone might know the fix/or not?
My Epever 4210AN is a year old had issues with charging the Lifepo4 Screampower 12V 100A eventually got it sorted (no thanks to Epever) but then it would occasionally stop charging even though batterie not fully charged so a re-boot corrected that (2x) To cut things a bit shorter the other morning I noticed that the panel was 3/4 AM sunlight it was only producing 0.9-1.5W on a 320W mono panel (brand new) I am still new to solar but that seemed off to me thinking that my controller is messing up again, so I went to re-boot it disconnecting panel first and then while pulling the batt negative out of the controller I accidentally touched the positive lead creating a brief and small short, after re-connecting everything again everything was dead, battery down to below 1V no PV power nothing, so I plugged in the (supplied) charger to the battery and it immediately came back up ( i did for the first time run the battery down to 10,6V and turned inverter of) ever since nothing from the PV no voltage /Amps nothing and in night mode(moon). I hooked it up to my other system and all is well it started charging etc..so it seems that somehow I killed the BMS which should have prevented that tiny spark from causing harm (the one good thing about Lead Acid that doesnt happen) Now the charger can after 20hrs bring the battery to 13..5V not more ,before it would go to 14.7V and shut of. I cannot figure out what went south? I know its the battery as the controller works with the LA batteries but nothing on the Lifpo4. Anyone ? I do not want to spend another small fortune(CDN$) on a new battery as this one is only a year old. Thnx in advance to anyone with an tip.

 

[Rocketman]

Others with more experience may suggest other avenues to check and do…

What Lithium battery do you have? Does the battery have Bluetooth or another form of communications?

If you really fried the bms (which is possible with a direct short), you can just open the battery and replace the bms with any number of brands (my favorite is JBD). That should be under a $100 fix.

I would at the same time either replace the Solar charge controller with a Victron or install breakers/switches so you can keep resetting the old SCC and not cause a direct short.

Good Luck

 

[Rocketman]

After re-reading…

You can charge the battery with a 120v charger - but you can’t charge it with your solar charge controller? Is that correct? It doesn’t make sense to me…

 

[Frank1966]

After re-reading…

You can charge the battery with a 120v charger - but you can’t charge it with your solar charge controller? Is that correct? It doesn’t make sense to me…

Thats what I thought ,it doesnt make sense, but like I wrote it also isnt charging all the way to 14.7V anymore, dont know what to make of it. The CC works fine on my other system so it has to be the Battery, also swapped panels etc..

Others with more experience may suggest other avenues to check and do…

What Lithium battery do you have? Does the battery have Bluetooth or another form of communications?

If you really fried the bms (which is possible with a direct short), you can just open the battery and replace the bms with any number of brands (my favorite is JBD). That should be under a $100 fix.

I would at the same time either replace the Solar charge controller with a Victron or install breakers/switches so you can keep resetting the old SCC and not cause a direct short.

Good Luck

I had to make some other investments, therefore I have not installed breakers this whole system has cost a pretty penny up here in the Corporation called Canada and only have a part time job at the moment..The battery which cost me here $429 CDN a year ago doesnt have any means of communication. No communication from the seller either , purchased thru Amazon. Thanks for your quick response.

 

[Rocketman]

Which battery do you have?
Does it have a YouTube breakdown video?
Next time get one with Bluetooth… (for this very reason - troubleshooting).

 

[Frank1966]

scream power now called something similar here the only YT link :

Just had something curious happen, after several resting periods the battery charger actually brought it up to 14.4V but my epever remote MT50 flashed an OVP error, so I unplugged the charger turned the inverter on and a light bulb and the error stopped after it dropped to 14.1V , never done that either it charged and turned of at 14.7V..if I had any hair left i wouldnt have anymore to tear out.

 

[Rocketman]

With a DMM (digital multimeter) does that match the voltages you see on your devices?

If so it sounds like the battery is working just fine- it charges, it discharges.

Have you re-tried the SCC?

Also do you have a shunt on your system- like a Victron Smartshunt?

From what I have read on this site there are a lot of people that have issues with epever. If/when you decide to get better equipment- look at Victron.

PS 14.7v is too high to charge a lithium Lifepo4 battery- max is 14.6 - I consider the max on my system 14.4 - but I usually only charge to 14.25.

Good Luck

 

[Frank1966]

With a DMM (digital multimeter) does that match the voltages you see on your devices?

If so it sounds like the battery is working just fine- it charges, it discharges.

Have you re-tried the SCC?

Also do you have a shunt on your system- like a Victron Smartshunt?

From what I have read on this site there are a lot of people that have issues with epever. If/when you decide to get better equipment- look at Victron.

PS 14.7v is too high to charge a lithium Lifepo4 battery- max is 14.6 - I consider the max on my system 14.4 - but I usually only charge to 14.25.

Good Luck

epever has been a nightmare from the get go but interestingly I ran across a cheap MPPT 60A from Isunergy or mrpower for 120$ 60A MPPT that is currently running my 2x LA batteries supplying fridge that thing runs circles around the epever never have to monitor it and I ordered a second 30A to replace the epever dont know how good it will do with the Lifpo4 it is user programable, so far the one I have is awesome.. I have the correct voltages and I have tried re-connecting it always with the same results , the new MPPT is supposed to arrive on the 8th, cant wait to get it. From reading around the manual it states that the battery can only accept low Amp charges of 3A thru the side port which is the reason it takes longer to charge than a 48V golf cart LA batteries. What I also tried is my old but trusty PMV Ching cong now I cannot really say what happened because its small tight together ports with big stranded wires, but I connected it and it showed a small charge of 1Amp then I heard a click (its also lithium comp) and smoke coming from it, dont know what happened but I dont recall causing a short, anyway I somehow toasted it.Still showed correct Batt V but just like the epever not charging, which again made no sense there were 36V coming from the PV. If I had the money I would seriously upgrade because I was used always buying top notch stuff, but in todays times with a part time job that isnt happening anytime soon..Luckily I have shore power in the camper but I spent all this money so I want to see its limits especially here in northern part of British Columbia, with little sunny days..its like a test run for when I go completely of grid.

 

[Norwasian]

I'm no expert here, despite having installed two EPEVER charge controllers. My understanding, however, is that there is no protection for wrong-way polarity hookups, and even a brief reverse-polarity short may well have damaged the controller beyond repair. With a lithium battery, even a brief short can mean a very strong amperage, as it is said to have very little internal resistance. If one does not have a Class T fuse close to the battery's terminal, it is easy to deplete the battery in short order if a short happens. While the battery can be recharged, the controller may be done in already. That would be my armchair opinion.

 

[Frank1966]

I'm no expert here, despite having installed two EPEVER charge controllers. My understanding, however, is that there is no protection for wrong-way polarity hookups, and even a brief reverse-polarity short may well have damaged the controller beyond repair. With a lithium battery, even a brief short can mean a very strong amperage, as it is said to have very little internal resistance. If one does not have a Class T fuse close to the battery's terminal, it is easy to deplete the battery in short order if a short happens. While the battery can be recharged, the controller may be done in already. That would be my armchair opinion.

Whats confusing is that it worked fine when I hooked it up the 2 Flded it charged went to MPPT right away and while testing it was still set to Lifpo4 just left it on for a few minutes for testing, like I said no more hair to pull out. So hurry up and wait..it is.Have a good night and thanks, will keep you posted.

 

[Frank1966]

I'm no expert here, despite having installed two EPEVER charge controllers. My understanding, however, is that there is no protection for wrong-way polarity hookups, and even a brief reverse-polarity short may well have damaged the controller beyond repair. With a lithium battery, even a brief short can mean a very strong amperage, as it is said to have very little internal resistance. If one does not have a Class T fuse close to the battery's terminal, it is easy to deplete the battery in short order if a short happens. While the battery can be recharged, the controller may be done in already. That would be my armchair opinion.

How much do you know about BMS? I took my Epever apart ,checked fuses and all mofsets and all checked out fine, I hooked it up to the 2 flooded and viola it works fine, the only part missing is the lifpo4 which charges thru the port but not the posts, holds a charge bla bla, I am fighting with the seller right now that claims there is nothing wrong with the battery, I am not an electrical engineer but there has to be an answer to this. Any ideas ?

 

[mikefitz]

only part missing is the lifpo4 which charges thru the port but not the posts,to avoid

Your SC of the battery cables did not damage your charge controller . What happened is you shorted out the battery. Normally the BMS enters protection mode and shuts down the discharge path. When the SC is removed, recovery and normal battery action should occur after a very short time delay. It seems you can use the battery via the port but not the posts , this suggests something has disconnected Inside the battery case. Most likely poor design connections/cables not able to withstand the high fault current.
If the battery suppliers literature suggests the battery can protect against short circuit current, then you can claim against the warranty.

To avoid any similar issue when working on the system its useful to have a suitable fuse (MRBF recomended), direct on or very close to, the battery positive, and an isolation switch feeding the rest of the system.

 

[Frank1966]

Your SC of the battery cables did not damage your charge controller . What happened is you shorted out the battery. Normally the BMS enters protection mode and shuts down the discharge path. When the SC is removed, recovery and normal battery action should occur after a very short time delay. It seems you can use the battery via the port but not the posts , this suggests something has disconnected Inside the battery case. Most likely poor design connections/cables not able to withstand the high fault current.
If the battery suppliers literature suggests the battery can protect against short circuit current, then you can claim against the warranty.

To avoid any similar issue when working on the system its useful to have a suitable fuse (MRBF recomended), direct on or very close to, the battery positive, and an isolation switch feeding the rest of the system.

Thank you for your response , this is a cheap battery and I couldnt find any mention of SC protection in the less than vague manual other than dont do it yay me I did it!! used to lead acid which you can spot weld with if in a pinch.., not even a contact of any sort. I figured that it has to battery related, but I was hoping that there is some kind of reset procedure as I am having a hard time believing such a brief small short could cause that. I know about the fuse but I just kept forgetting to add/buy one.. getting up there with the grey cells.. Its dis-charging @ 51A right now want to run it down and then see if my regular charger will bring it back up or if a mosfet is toasted on the terminal side because I know it works using their side port and charger. Would be really considerate if they gave one such info in a manual... in case of this..that happens.. Update: so my regular flooded charger is charging thru the main Terminals , which leads me to a BMS fault?

 

[ericfx1984]

Others with more experience may suggest other avenues to check and do…

What Lithium battery do you have? Does the battery have Bluetooth or another form of communications?

If you really fried the bms (which is possible with a direct short), you can just open the battery and replace the bms with any number of brands (my favorite is JBD). That should be under a $100 fix.

I would at the same time either replace the Solar charge controller with a Victron or install breakers/switches so you can keep resetting the old SCC and not cause a direct short.

Good Luck

Not only would it be a really affordable fix... But it would significantly upgrade the batteries capabilities

 

[Frank1966]

Hi, thanks for the reply, so after some more testing and completely depleting down to 11.6V I just hooked up my regular LA battery charger to see if the battery will take a charge over the main posts instead of just the integrated side port reason: my normal charger wont charge over 13.2V therefore took the charge down for this test and it is charging , so after this I am thinking BMS toast or a mosfet toast or both.. Now I am just looking at getting a new BMS but dont know which one fits my battery its a 100A 12.8V Screampower one name for it called scremower now and some other cheap brands. How do I find a suitable one? Never done this before other than a PV repair which did not contain a regular diode as shown in many YT vids but it works now...waited long time from China..

 

[Rocketman]

Can you open it up and take a picture and measurements of the bms?

Watch several battery tear downs if you have a glued case to see how they do it.

 

[Norwasian]

How much do you know about BMS? I took my Epever apart ,checked fuses and all mofsets and all checked out fine, I hooked it up to the 2 flooded and viola it works fine, the only part missing is the lifpo4 which charges thru the port but not the posts, holds a charge bla bla, I am fighting with the seller right now that claims there is nothing wrong with the battery, I am not an electrical engineer but there has to be an answer to this. Any ideas ?

I'm still wet behind the ears with BMS stuff. I've programmed one, a JK-BMS, and learned a little about that side of things in the process, but we have never dared to test the system with such events as a short circuit to see what would happen--too afraid to ruin something and get an expensive lesson.

However, my understanding in reading from others' experience is that if a LiFePO4 battery has a short, even a brief one, it is quite possible for it to deplete itself to the point where the BMS shuts it off for undervolt protection. At this point, it would not be able to be operated externally, until opened and the individual cells manually recharged to a point where the BMS would "wake up" again, and allow the battery to be back online.

If you are able to charge the battery externally, as before, from any source or to any degree, to my mind that would eliminate this possibility of the BMS having cut off. If, however, the battery seems "dead," this may be what has happened: it's not dead, just in a deep hibernation.

Hopefully others, more experienced than myself, will have some good suggestions for you.

 

[robbob2112]

Order a MRBF and mount for your battery post now - Del City has good prices and you know they are real verse having to weed out the fakes on Amazon.

 

[Frank1966]

I'm still wet behind the ears with BMS stuff. I've programmed one, a JK-BMS, and learned a little about that side of things in the process, but we have never dared to test the system with such events as a short circuit to see what would happen--too afraid to ruin something and get an expensive lesson.

However, my understanding in reading from others' experience is that if a LiFePO4 battery has a short, even a brief one, it is quite possible for it to deplete itself to the point where the BMS shuts it off for undervolt protection. At this point, it would not be able to be operated externally, until opened and the individual cells manually recharged to a point where the BMS would "wake up" again, and allow the battery to be back online.

If you are able to charge the battery externally, as before, from any source or to any degree, to my mind that would eliminate this possibility of the BMS having cut off. If, however, the battery seems "dead," this may be what has happened: it's not dead, just in a deep hibernation.

Hopefully others, more experienced than myself, will have some good suggestions for you.

Sawa dee cap.. did not see your from Thailand, been there, Thanks for the comment, I just wanted to add that I am at my witts end, the battery charges thru either main posts or side port, I charges up to 14.7 (supplied charger) and shuts of , it will completely dis-charge and again take a charge with a regular charger, ok Now I hooked up a brand new MPPT and it does the same it will not charge the battery, all this makes no sense what could possibly prevent charge controllers not to work but regular chargers work?? I dont understand it even after reading a bit more of what a BMS does and it still doesnt make sense, a normal charger just applies a voltage/A to the posts as a SCC would..I bet it would even work in my truck..but not with a charge controllers, this is truly mind boggeling... If the seller denies warranty I am going to rip it apart and maybe find an answer ...

 

[mikefitz]

How do I find a suitable one?

I use these JBD 120 amp BMS on 100Ah 12v batteries,

4S or 3S 12V Li ion or Lifepo4 Battery smart BMS with Bluetooth function UART and RS485 communication with 60A to 120A constant current - LLT POWER ELECTRONIC

1) Application:this smart BMS can work for 3 to 4S Lithium ion or Lifepo4 Battery ,client can choose based on your battery chemistry features 2) Current : constant current of this version BMS can be made with 40A to 120A in accoridng to the different demand 3) Dimension: :Max 138*102*15mm for...

www.lithiumbatterypcb.com

The supplier accepts PayPal and opt for express delivery.

The BMS is slightly modified and distributed by Overkill, so that's an option,

Support/Downloads – Overkill Solar

overkillsolar.com

It's a reliable BMS and the Overkill app is easier to use than alternatives. ( the Overkill app works with any JBD Bluetooth BMS).

 

[Norwasian]

Sawa dee cap.. did not see your from Thailand, been there, Thanks for the comment, I just wanted to add that I am at my witts end, the battery charges thru either main posts or side port, I charges up to 14.7 (supplied charger) and shuts of , it will completely dis-charge and again take a charge with a regular charger, ok Now I hooked up a brand new MPPT and it does the same it will not charge the battery, all this makes no sense what could possibly prevent charge controllers not to work but regular chargers work?? I dont understand it even after reading a bit more of what a BMS does and it still doesnt make sense, a normal charger just applies a voltage/A to the posts as a SCC would..I bet it would even work in my truck..but not with a charge controllers, this is truly mind boggeling... If the seller denies warranty I am going to rip it apart and maybe find an answer ...

Your charge controller settings may be important. In an "open loop" setup, where there is not direct communication between the controller and the battery's BMS, the controller determines whether or not to output a charge current based on sensing the battery's voltage. The proper voltage of the battery will depend on its chemistry. The charge controller, if set to the wrong battery chemistry or the wrong voltage settings, may think the battery is already charged.

A more remote possibility might be that if the battery were severely depleted, the charge controller, if capable of automatically sensing the system voltage and setting itself to 12v, 24v, 36v, or 48v accordingly, might not see sufficient voltage to align itself correctly. This seems less likely to be the problem with a 12v system, though, as it should seemingly default to that for anything lower than about 15v.

I really don't know. I think, though, that if you are able to charge the battery with a "regular charger," and the battery accepts the charge, then it cannot be a problem with the BMS. Have you confirmed that the "regular charger" is actually charging the battery, not just trying to do so? If the battery is not accepting the charge, then you may have a BMS issue.

 

[mikefitz]

Battery is not accepting the charge, then you may have a BMS issue.

As I understand the problem, it's possible to charge and use the battery via the 'charge port' , a connection point on the side of the battery. But not possible to charge and load via the normal positive and negative terminals on the battery.
This suggests a failure inside the battery, a possible wiring failure, not necessarily a BMS failure.

 

[Frank1966]

With a DMM (digital multimeter) does that match the voltages you see on your devices?

If so it sounds like the battery is working just fine- it charges, it discharges.

Have you re-tried the SCC?

Also do you have a shunt on your system- like a Victron Smartshunt?

From what I have read on this site there are a lot of people that have issues with epever. If/when you decide to get better equipment- look at Victron.

PS 14.7v is too high to charge a lithium Lifepo4 battery- max is 14.6 - I consider the max on my system 14.4 - but I usually only charge to 14.25.

Good Luck

I found the actual problem.. man this took allot of trials but one thing was ( not a suspect) but always in the loop, a 20Ft 10 AWG cable 4 years old , failed even after I installed brand new MC4 connectors, somewhere in that cable even though power went thru, is a break in the strands, which will give one a reading (volts/Continuity ) yet not much else. Considering the age I was not looking at it because I was getting proper voltages at the SCC. So battery / SCC are fine and system back up and running.