Has anyone else realized how far we are away from running civilization fully on wind and solar?

[Nobodybusiness]

The discipline in running a naval reactor may be better than at a commercial for-profit plant.
Could naval reactor produce cost-effective power, for purposes other than MAD or Force Projection?
(Has the Navy successfully completed its first ever financial audit yet?)

Windscale was 1957
Three mile island was decades ago.
Chernobyl a couple decades.
Fukashima a couple years.
Which intrinsically safe reactor will be the future one?

So because you don’t want to train people to higher standards we should just chuck it?

You know from other threads that Bean counters doomed Fukushima .

Chernobyl really?

Without an interim power green power is dead.

 

[labeeman]

The same thing that would happen if you hit one of theirs. What’s your point?

Either you come up with a High density Storage Solution ( 1000 times more dense than present) or some free fission device or this transition to Green energy is a pipe dream.

No way to provide a viable alternative to fossil fuels for manufacturing or mining or any heavy industries until that happens.

Forcing it it only shoves the divide between those who have and those who don’t.

Yes, Green energy is a pipe dream.
Nuclear clean energy is also a pipe dream
As far as fossil fuels go mankind will still be living long after they have run out I hope.

 

[cs1234]

The same thing that would happen if you hit one of theirs. What’s your point?

Either you come up with a High density Storage Solution ( 1000 times more dense than present) or some free fission device or this transition to Green energy is a pipe dream.

No way to provide a viable alternative to fossil fuels for manufacturing or mining or any heavy industries until that happens.

Forcing it it only shoves the divide between those who have and those who don’t.

So because it isn't currently suitable for giant energy consumers like manufacturing, mining and heavy industry, we should just stop attempting to move forward on it for the purposes it can possibly fulfill? A great many homes could have the majority of their energy needs met by renewables even with the technologies of today. At the very least, it can help take some of the stress off of grids and fossil fuel distribution/logistics systems enabling those giant energy consumers to have it available for their needs.

Maybe putting all our eggs in one basket, the same one it's been in for the last hundred+ years, isn't the best strategy.

 

[Hedges]

Agree, PV saves fossil fuel for use where nothing else is practical.
Duck's back curve, having peaker plants spin up later in the day and (profitably) burn less natural gas buys time.

PV is a great fit for air conditioning, at least until sun starts to get low in the sky.
Insulation and a good phase-change material would let it last through evening, even day and night.

We can go down that path gradually, also EV and hybrid, shifting increasing potion of our power mix to renewables.
I keep saying load control (shedding excess loads that can't be met) is the key to best utilizing renewable power production.

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

Insulation and a good phase-change material would let it last through evening, even day and night.

Radiant cooling. Use the energy during the day to run the AC and cool down a large tank of water. When the sun is gone, use the cold water like you do with radiant heating. I'm using an air to water heat pump for this.

 

[Hedges]

Yes, but that's a large water tank. Probably high flow rate for climates where significant cooling needed.
Do you have a fan to push air over the fins, which will have small temperature differential? Or by "radiant", do you mean under-floor tubes?
Building ice seems better, but has the inefficiency of refrigeration having to pump down to zero C.

This why I'm thinking a breakthrough in room-temperature phase-change material could be a game-changer. Easier to retrofit, and use without adding a large tank.

 

[John Frum]

Radiant cooling. Use the energy during the day to run the AC and cool down a large tank of water. When the sun is gone, use the cold water like you do with radiant heating. I'm using an air to water heat pump for this.

I read about that a while back.
My recollection is condensation is a problem.
Maybe its a solved problem, don't know.

 

[cs1234]

Radiant cooling. Use the energy during the day to run the AC and cool down a large tank of water. When the sun is gone, use the cold water like you do with radiant heating. I'm using an air to water heat pump for this.

Yes, things like this are the unorthodox, some would consider silly, solutions we need, but will likely never get. We have tons of ways of using gathered energy for later, we just lack the political / financial incentive to actually get anything done. Creating one off solutions that require individual tinkering is fine for people like us that are a bit "crazy", , but we need approved, manufactured solutions for those not as into it.

Batteries are probably the simplest from a one size fits all solution, but we can only create so many, so fast, and for so cheap.

Phase-changeable material is a fantastic means for storing energy, especially if space is not a problem.

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

do you mean under-floor tubes?

Yes, same tubes used to pump hot water under the floor in heating season. Same tank as well: hot water in winter, cold water in summer.

My recollection is condensation is a problem.

An automatic system with dew point monitoring fixes this.

Many manufactures support both heating and cooling on their equipment right now.

 

[John Frum]

Yes, same tubes used to pump hot water under the floor in heating season. Same tank as well: hot water in winter, cold water in summer.



An automatic system with dew point monitoring fixes this.

Many manufactures support both heating and cooling on their equipment right now.

Can this be retro-fitted to an existing radiator system?

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

Can this be retro-fitted to an existing radiator system?

Have a look at something like this:

Control station RKR 3 H/K - Roth

A control station including an integrated CC-HC climate controller for central, weather-dependent inlet temperature control (weather-compensated temperature control) for radiant heating and optional radiant cooling.

www.roth-werke.de

The 'optional' part is the dew point sensor.

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

Creating one off solutions that require individual tinkering is fine for people like us that are a bit "crazy", , but we need approved, manufactured solutions for those not as into it.

These are readily available from vendors like Roth and Uponor to name just two.

 

[cs1234]

These are readily available from vendors like Roth and Uponor to name just two.

Here in the states, until it is required by code(s) that all new houses must have it, it simply doesn't get done.

The builders here will charge high prices, but put in the cheapest, least efficient junk they can get away with. Anything involving efficiency doesn't really interest the average American consumer, it's usually about flashiness and initial cost.

The market speaks and people generally won't / can't pay in advance for efficiency. It has to be forced upon them and the manufacturer, which is unfortunate, because it gives ammunition to the government is terrible brigade. The government having the exclusive right to use force is a good reason to be careful when summoning them, but sometimes they are the only available solution.

 

[labeeman]

I also see a problem with New houses being built here they are Huge 2500 sq feet+ a mansion to heat and cool with cooling here the main cost as we do not get bad winters here anymore.

 

[cs1234]

I also see a problem with New houses being built here they are Huge 2500 sq feet+ a mansion to heat and cool with cooling here the main cost as we do not get bad winters here anymore.

My house is bigger than that, but my roof and walls could easily supply me with my energy needs the vast majority of the time, if the HOA/County/City weren't roadblocks to deal with.

The back wall of my two story house would work great. I get so much setting sun on it, and it generates so much heat that my AC has to contend with, not being allowed to capture that solar energy to run the AC is just so infuriating that I don't even have words.

 

[labeeman]

My house is bigger than that, but my roof and walls could easily supply me with my energy needs the vast majority of the time, if the HOA/County/City weren't roadblocks to deal with.

The back wall of my two story house would work great. I get so much setting sun on it, and it generates so much heat that my AC has to contend with, not being allowed to capture that solar energy to run the AC is just so infuriating that I don't even have words.

I used to own a home with an HOA never again you will never own it as the HOA owns it.

 

[Nobodybusiness]

So because it isn't currently suitable for giant energy consumers like manufacturing, mining and heavy industry, we should just stop attempting to move forward on it for the purposes it can possibly fulfill? A great many homes could have the majority of their energy needs met by renewables even with the technologies of today. At the very least, it can help take some of the stress off of grids and fossil fuel distribution/logistics systems enabling those giant energy consumers to have it available for their needs.

Maybe putting all our eggs in one basket, the same one it's been in for the last hundred+ years, isn't the best

 

[Nobodybusiness]

So because it isn't currently suitable for giant energy consumers like manufacturing, mining and heavy industry, we should just stop attempting to move forward on it for the purposes it can possibly fulfill? A great many homes could have the majority of their energy needs met by renewables even with the technologies of today. At the very least, it can help take some of the stress off of grids and fossil fuel distribution/logistics systems enabling those giant energy consumers to have it available for their needs.

Maybe putting all our eggs in one basket, the same one it's been in for the last hundred+ years, isn't the best strategy.

It isn’t suitable for anything hence why this forum has everyone buying AliExpress crap and throwing it away.

No return on investment.

I don’t care who you are you are going to want to eat and be able to live before throwing away money and hoping you get a payback.
You cannot compete with mass produced power.

Even a Diy system to run an entire house 24/7 is minimum $30,000.
Unless you live in an outbuilding 14x20 and most don’t.

I built everything myself and was 54,000.

Most do not have the aptitude, resource to do that.
It’s not viable yet. Piecemeal a few here and there are not affecting anything.

What is the true cost of manufacturing a solar panel? What is it’s payback monetarily and Carbon footprint.


There is no way to store the vast amount of energy from the sun to use later economicly.
Until then it’s a waste to force the less capable people of our economy to foot the bill for this green initiative.

You are killing the middle class in a hurry.

 

[Nobodybusiness]

Agree, PV saves fossil fuel for use where nothing else is practical.
Duck's back curve, having peaker plants spin up later in the day and (profitably) burn less natural gas buys time.

PV is a great fit for air conditioning, at least until sun starts to get low in the sky.
Insulation and a good phase-change material would let it last through evening, even day and night.

We can go down that path gradually, also EV and hybrid, shifting increasing potion of our power mix to renewables.
I keep saying load control (shedding excess loads that can't be met) is the key to best utilizing renewable power production.

Gradually is not canceling every drilling and pipeline operations day 1.

You are way overburdening the very people who you are supposed to be helping.

Every fuel in the states is up substantially.
Auto, trucking heating and even electric.

You can’t force change or if you try you are going to end up in blood shed.

 

[cs1234]

@Biasjo

It's nice that you are at least consistent in your insistence that everything always has to work economically. Guess what, tons of things don't work economically (at least not to the benefit of the regular people) and we do them anyway. Sometimes things just have to be done, even if you don't make money on them. At least investment in green infrastructure has the remote possibility of being worthwhile, we spend more for less everyday.

You must realize that every industry in the world, even the most pointlessly mundane is or was subsidized in some way at some point? The bigger the industry, the more subsidized money it gets. Heaven forbid green energy get any of that money.

I grow weary of the carbon footprint of solar panels and batteries arguments. That can be said for every piece of worthless double and triple bagged / boxed thing we as consumers purchase. The amount of waste we generate and resources we consume on absolutely worthless, does nothing, garbage is near immeasurable. Yet, any time solar panels are mentioned, OMG, what about their carbon footprint?!