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Help Me Retrofit my Microinverter System With 48V Batteries

Balderdashian

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Joined
Jul 7, 2024
Messages
33
Location
Los Angeles
I have a 10kw Enphase microinverter system that I want to retrofit for battery time shifting.

I'm not entirely clear on the terminology (ESS? AC-coupled? Grid-interactive?) but I'm just trying to figure out which inverters that support generic 48V batteries can backfeed power to the main panel/utility grid (safely with anti-islanding protection of course). Whether it's technically legal in California or not I don't care.

My idea is to install a 50 amp NEMA 14-50 outlet in my garage and create a portable battery/inverter rig I can just plug the inverter's AC-In into. I don't want a critical load center and I don't care care about DC PV or outage protection.

I just want to charge batteries during the day and discharge them to the main panel at night. I know the Victron MultiPlus/Quattro can do it, but not necessarily in the US (can it still work without codes?). I think the Sol-Ark 15k, EG4 12/18kpv, and Schneider can do this but those are very expensive.

The SunGold Power TP6048 is cheap and says it can do "Grid Feedback". But the manual on their site for the US version is actually the EU 230V version and gives no information on breaker sizes so I have no clue how much grid feedback it can do.

The EG4 6000XP's manual says "The inverter and system can inter-connect with the utility grid only if the utility provider permits" but I'm 95% sure this unit cannot feed back to the grid, right?
 
I have a 10kw Enphase microinverter system that I want to retrofit for battery time shifting.

I'm not entirely clear on the terminology (ESS? AC-coupled? Grid-interactive?) but I'm just trying to figure out which inverters that support generic 48V batteries can backfeed power to the main panel/utility grid (safely with anti-islanding protection of course). Whether it's technically legal in California or not I don't care.

My idea is to install a 50 amp NEMA 14-50 outlet in my garage and create a portable battery/inverter rig I can just plug the inverter's AC-In into. I don't want a critical load center and I don't care care about DC PV or outage protection.

I just want to charge batteries during the day and discharge them to the main panel at night. I know the Victron MultiPlus/Quattro can do it, but not necessarily in the US (can it still work without codes?). I think the Sol-Ark 15k, EG4 12/18kpv, and Schneider can do this but those are very expensive.

The SunGold Power TP6048 is cheap and says it can do "Grid Feedback". But the manual on their site for the US version is actually the EU 230V version and gives no information on breaker sizes so I have no clue how much grid feedback it can do.

The EG4 6000XP's manual says "The inverter and system can inter-connect with the utility grid only if the utility provider permits" but I'm 95% sure this unit cannot feed back to the grid, right?
I'm curious why you need the rig to be portable?

AC couple can work but it's not going to work with a portable rig.

For your needs (no need for critical loads or outage protection ,ac retrofit is going to be a lot simpler.


Victron ess works in the usa you just need to select other for grid code and enter a password.
 
I'm curious why you need the rig to be portable?

AC couple can work but it's not going to work with a portable rig.
I don't want to have to get it permitted. Especially considering most inverters won't even pass inspection in CA. Adding just a NEMA outlet I can get away with and the outlet adds value to the home because it's very versatile as it can be used as another EV charger, clothes dryer, water heater, arc welder, etc.

My main panel is outdoors and my garage is on the opposite side of the house, and the garage is the only indoor location I can mount an inverter, and most inverters are indoor only. I don't like the idea of the inverter and battery pack being permanent fixtures. I'm not against temporarily mounting the inverter on the wall, but I'd really rather not hardwire it to the panel and try to get it permitted.

Even if I got it permitted, if I sell the house I have two big ugly, complicated, confusing gadgets in the garage that a potential buyer might not want to deal with.

Why do you think it's not going to work?
 
I don't want to have to get it permitted. Especially considering most inverters won't even pass inspection in CA. Adding just a NEMA outlet I can get away with and the outlet adds value to the home because it's very versatile as it can be used as another EV charger, clothes dryer, water heater, arc welder, etc.

My main panel is outdoors and my garage is on the opposite side of the house, and the garage is the only indoor location I can mount an inverter, and most inverters are indoor only. I don't like the idea of the inverter and battery pack being permanent fixtures. I'm not against temporarily mounting the inverter on the wall, but I'd really rather not hardwire it to the panel and try to get it permitted.

Even if I got it permitted, if I sell the house I have two big ugly, complicated, confusing gadgets in the garage that a potential buyer might not want to deal with.

Why do you think it's not going to work?
Ok got you. As long as you are willing to deal with the weight. These inverters are generally 90+ lbs and then you have battery weight

With the exception of the victron i believe most of the ac retrofit capable inverters are ip65 rated and can be mounted outside.
 
Victron ess works in the usa you just need to select other for grid code and enter a password.
I don’t think this is true for all jurisdictions, and I would recommend assuming it can’t unless confirmed for specific scenario, due to missing 9540 and 1741SB (the latter may not technically be necessary, depends on POCO regulations)

Contrast this with manufacturers on EG the CEC equipment list

If the Victron is now there (it wasn’t when I looked 12 months ago) I will amend my analysis
 
I don’t think this is true for all jurisdictions, and I would recommend assuming it can’t unless confirmed for specific scenario, due to missing 9540 and 1741SB (the latter may not technically be necessary, depends on POCO regulations)

Contrast this with manufacturers on EG the CEC equipment list

If the Victron is now there (it wasn’t when I looked 12 months ago) I will amend my analysis
I think op said they weren't going to be getting it permitted
 
I think op said they weren't going to be getting it permitted
Ok, missed that.

Many standard installations of ESS can be detected via smart meter (based on the specs of the meters couple forum people and I looked at, as well as the PUC approved level of privacy invasion on how much they can data mine).

I guess to save $2000-3500 OP is maybe willing to dig into a hardware/wiring combo that is immune. I wouldn’t call Victron the cheaper option.
 
Even if I got it permitted, if I sell the house I have two big ugly, complicated, confusing gadgets in the garage that a potential buyer might not want to deal with.
Every SFR built after NEM3 is going to have an Enphase 5P, gateway, etc which are chonky, I’m not sure this is a meaningful quibble.
 
Ok, missed that.

Many standard installations of ESS can be detected via smart meter (based on the specs of the meters couple forum people and I looked at, as well as the PUC approved level of privacy invasion on how much they can data mine).

I guess to save $2000-3500 OP is maybe willing to dig into a hardware/wiring combo that is immune. I wouldn’t call Victron the cheaper option.
It's harder for them to do anything about ess if the home is already connected to the grid and exporting. And the way the op is doing it if the come for an inspection he can remove all traces of the ess 😂
 
It's harder for them to do anything about ess if the home is already connected to the grid and exporting. And the way the op is doing it if the come for an inspection he can remove all traces of the ess 😂
Self consumption after sun goes down would be detectable without probalistic anomaly detection. It would be straight up objective, albeit subtle, detection of a grid parallel battery.

Forced export at peak, which is valuable for net consumers on NEM2, can improve ROI but very easy to detect, much bigger signal than grid parallel battery, probably objective beyond a reasonable doubt in court.

Aggressive self consumption where a lot of export is captured for consumption at peak requires anomaly detection and would probably only clear preponderance of evidence, at best. And if configured in non-grid parallel way, you only piss off the AHJ, not the POCO
 
Self consumption after sun goes down would be detectable without probalistic anomaly detection. It would be straight up objective, albeit subtle, detection of a grid parallel battery.

Forced export at peak, which is valuable for net consumers on NEM2, can improve ROI but very easy to detect, much bigger signal than grid parallel battery, probably objective beyond a reasonable doubt in court.

Aggressive self consumption where a lot of export is captured for consumption at peak requires anomaly detection and would probably only clear preponderance of evidence, at best. And if configured in non-grid parallel way, you only piss off the AHJ, not the POCO
I don't know how ca works. Is there indication that pocos actively look for people who have unpermitted batteries?

If adding a battery to an existing system does poco have to be notified?
 
I don't know how ca works. Is there indication that pocos actively look for people who have unpermitted batteries?
It's doable. There have been posts where people were caught with SUB config AIOs, which would have a similar signature. These are not from California.

If adding a battery to an existing system does poco have to be notified?
Of course, if parallel, and this is likely in majority of jurisdictions.

In california specifically, it's spelled out in NEM rules (because there is a NEM+Storage interconnection update form) as well as Rule21 more broadly (b/c that covers parallel operation).
 

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