Help! PoCo locked my system! Don't know what to do...

[JonahJimson]

Hi everyone,

First off, sorry if this is in the wrong section. I've been dealing with a huge headache lately and don't know how to proceed.

I hired a company to install a grid-tied 12 kW roof mounted system (Luxpower 12k, 11 kW of PV and 2 x pytes 5.12 kWh). We applied for net metering but was rejected due to no capacity, and I was told that I can still interconnect the system and use the bypass feature of the Luxpower to draw from grid whenever solar or battery is sufficient. So then the install is done, and the times comes to have the system inspected. Inspection passes no problem, but then the inspector sends a notice to the power company that the install passes code, and then all of a sudden PoCo comes out and locks my system, tells me they don't allow interconnections due to my area being restricted. I tried to tell them I have a battery system and will be using the generated energy to cover my loads in a separate subpanel, to which they respond that even if no energy is exported, the fact that I'm using my own energy when the grid is available, it produces an imbalance in their distribution lines and they won't allow it.

I tried to find what what they're referencing and I think this is it:

"The following rules must be followed for these backup generators:

1. Backup generation cannot be used to displace load at any time when regular utility supply is available.
   • Portable backup generators may be used without the use of a transfer device, provided there is no possibility to inject power into the grid.
   • Permanently installed backup generators must have an open transition transfer switch to ensure backup generator is never parallel to the distribution grid."

So basically, I'm only allowed to use my system when the grid is out, which means my system right now and almost all of the time will be pretty much a glorified $40k brick. Is there anyway to change the wiring layout to go around this? Installer is of no help and keeps saying we're working on it. I found a document where it talks about a "break before make switch". I've attached it here, would it be possible to go around this restriction using that kind of switch?

 

[740GLE]

Oh no I thought Canadian companies would be more flexible with green energy.

My only advice to fight the term “back up generator” is to geared to limit ICE generators running 24/7 when the grid is available do to horrible emissions associated.

Tell them you don’t have a “back up generator”, you have any energy storage system, and that rule doesn’t apply to you.

Did you reach out to the company who installed the system? They must have come across this before.

 

[JonahJimson]

Most of them seem to be, but there are a few who are really hard heads when it comes to solar, they refuse to educate themselves on the technology, and I can't seem to get through them, I don't want to piss them off more than they already are.

Unfortunately, they consider ICE generators, solar, wind, etc... under the umbrella of back up generator.

Installer says this is a bureaucratic issue, which sure makes sense, I mean I don't understand how using a battery system to shave off your loads produces an imbalance in the grid, it's not like i'm putting my whole house on the system, my others loads still use the grid.

This is incredibly frustrating, I don't know how I can convince them, they're not budging.

 

[Offgrid Jungle]

Put in a bigger system and go off grid. Tell them to take their meter and shove it.

 

[Supervstech]

Get a lawyer.
You are not going to convince the bureaucracy to allow it. Need to hire a lawyer to interpret this.

 

[Daddy Tanuki]

Hi everyone,

First off, sorry if this is in the wrong section. I've been dealing with a huge headache lately and don't know how to proceed.

I hired a company to install a grid-tied 12 kW roof mounted system (Luxpower 12k, 11 kW of PV and 2 x pytes 5.12 kWh). We applied for net metering but was rejected due to no capacity, and I was told that I can still interconnect the system and use the bypass feature of the Luxpower to draw from grid whenever solar or battery is sufficient. So then the install is done, and the times comes to have the system inspected. Inspection passes no problem, but then the inspector sends a notice to the power company that the install passes code, and then all of a sudden PoCo comes out and locks my system, tells me they don't allow interconnections due to my area being restricted. I tried to tell them I have a battery system and will be using the generated energy to cover my loads in a separate subpanel, to which they respond that even if no energy is exported, the fact that I'm using my own energy when the grid is available, it produces an imbalance in their distribution lines and they won't allow it.

I tried to find what what they're referencing and I think this is it:

"The following rules must be followed for these backup generators:

1. Backup generation cannot be used to displace load at any time when regular utility supply is available.
   • Portable backup generators may be used without the use of a transfer device, provided there is no possibility to inject power into the grid.
   • Permanently installed backup generators must have an open transition transfer switch to ensure backup generator is never parallel to the distribution grid."

So basically, I'm only allowed to use my system when the grid is out, which means my system right now and almost all of the time will be pretty much a glorified $40k brick. Is there anyway to change the wiring layout to go around this? Installer is of no help and keeps saying we're working on it. I found a document where it talks about a "break before make switch". I've attached it here, would it be possible to go around this restriction using that kind of switch?

and that is just one of the many reasons why you need the second amendment. did you vote the Power company into an office? no? well they sure act like you did... probably bribed a bunch of elected officials into codifying that bit of stupidity into law and if it is not a law, then tell them to unhook you and to bugger off and go straight offgrid. if they did bribe the local politicians into codifying that into a law then you are possibly just screwed you have no 2nd amendment to prevent tyranny so once again you are probably just out 40.k at least its 40 K c and not 40 k USD.

 

[1201]

How did they "lock" your system, @JonahJimson

 

[crossy]

Using a transfer switch (either manual or automatic) should make you compliant (but I suspect you will need a knowledgeable lawyer on your side), your load will either be powered completely off-grid by your solar or completely on-grid by your grid supply. It would, of course, negate any grid "assistance" to your solar, it's either on or off.

It does seem odd that on one hand they permit net-metering (ok they have no capacity at present) and on the other they actually lock a compliant system for being grid tied (and no-export).

Here in Thailand, there would be an official with his hand open in order to "grant permission", but I somehow doubt that is the case in Canada.

 

[zanydroid]

You’re going to need rather local advice to sort this out efficiently. IMO while it’s likely someone will reply with a working answer, you won’t be able to sort this out as a solar/gridtie newcomer which advice to follow and how to implement it

Is there an ombudsman or MP you can go through? In addition to the lawyer path.

How are they allowed to lock your system if it is wired for off grid?

Is your installer not willing to design a compliant solution? How is your contract written? Can they subcontract someone to problem solve this from a design angle (depending on contract it may be a change order outside their control). This person would be charged to spend 5-10 hours teasing out your POCO rules, clarifying exactly what they don’t like, and redesigning as needed

Maybe there is a specific way to bid it out on Greenlancer. Unfortunately it’s not simply, “draw up these plans for me”

Engineering wise this is more possible to happen if you configured it in full 200A bypass (all house loads under inverter). If you set it up so only part of the house loads (the amount that sits under 12kW) are served then it works better as an off grid inverter.

 

[v_green57]

"I was told that I can still interconnect the system and use the bypass feature of the Luxpower to draw from grid whenever solar or battery is sufficient."

By whom? And how?

Hopefully it was in writing.

side note - did you mean "insufficient" in the sentence above?

 

[zanydroid]

, the fact that I'm using my own energy when the grid is available, it produces an imbalance in their distribution lines and they won't allow it.

I tried to find what what they're referencing and I think this is it:

So this is rather technical. If you are connected even with zero export you can definitely shift the power factor of the grid. A residence is probably not going to do it meaningfully, but you are still affecting it. Because zero export may not be guaranteed to do power factor compensation.

Or it could be some other technical complaint. Or a purely bureaucratic one

This inverter may not be lockable (by installer) in a purely off grid mode (non parallel) to satisfy POCO. in which case you need an external ATS to interlock it.

 

[Daddy Tanuki]

Using a transfer switch (either manual or automatic) should make you compliant (but I suspect you will need a knowledgeable lawyer on your side), your load will either be powered completely off-grid by your solar or completely on-grid by your grid supply. It would, of course, negate any grid "assistance" to your solar, it's either on or off.

It does seem odd that on one hand they permit net-metering (ok they have no capacity at present) and on the other they actually lock a compliant system for being grid tied (and no-export).

Here in Thailand, there would be an official with his hand open in order to "grant permission", but I somehow doubt that is the case in Canada.

trust me it happens in the west as well, jsut not directly from the end user... the cash flow goes from payer (PoCo) into said politicians black hole of election funds... thats how the bribe works.

 

[Solar Guppy]

I am sorry to read of your issues, but they clearly on their net metering page have this disclaimer:

NOTE: Applicants are cautioned not to incur any expenses until we approve to connect the proposed generation facility.



Now one would think an licensed installer would know this and you may have to resort to the courts to get your funds back, but it isn't Hydro Ones fault that approval was not obtained before the project started.

You also have a secondary issue, that is common even in the states, your are over 10kW in size, even here in Florida, simple netmetering is under 10kW, over that more requirements are placed on the project.

At this point you need to look to your installer as you hired them and they should know full well the issues for your area. I hope you are able to find a resolution that works for you!

 

[740GLE]

I agree, the contractor who specked and installed the system has much to answer.

 

[JonahJimson]

Put in a bigger system and go off grid. Tell them to take their meter and shove it.

I would love to, but sadly currently that's not a feasible option.

 

[JonahJimson]

and that is just one of the many reasons why you need the second amendment. did you vote the Power company into an office? no? well they sure act like you did... probably bribed a bunch of elected officials into codifying that bit of stupidity into law and if it is not a law, then tell them to unhook you and to bugger off and go straight offgrid. if they did bribe the local politicians into codifying that into a law then you are possibly just screwed you have no 2nd amendment to prevent tyranny so once again you are probably just out 40.k at least its 40 K c and not 40 k USD.

sad state of afairs, but atleast we're not Australia or New Zealand. What's weird is that only a few PoCos seem to have this hardliner rule, a lot of them do accept load displacement without issue. Here, we have an energy board that's sets the codes for solar and battery systems for PoCos to follow, no doubt lobbied the board to make it harder for folks.

 

[JonahJimson]

How did they "lock" your system, @JonahJimson

They shut off and locked the solar system disconnect that's by the meter. It's required by code to be there for emergency staff access, and ofcourse to screw over regular folks.

 

[Skypower]

I’d first contact the installer. If they don’t immediately respond, find an attorney. I’d also suggest contacting your local news outlet. The PoCo anti green attitude in the public light makes them look bad.

 

[1201]

They shut off and locked the solar system disconnect that's by the meter. It's required by code to be there for emergency staff access, and ofcourse to screw over regular folks.

Do they own the disconnect?

Also. Depending on how you have the system installed you should still be able to use the system you just won't have any grid input from the disconnect

 

[JonahJimson]

Using a transfer switch (either manual or automatic) should make you compliant (but I suspect you will need a knowledgeable lawyer on your side), your load will either be powered completely off-grid by your solar or completely on-grid by your grid supply. It would, of course, negate any grid "assistance" to your solar, it's either on or off.

It does seem odd that on one hand they permit net-metering (ok they have no capacity at present) and on the other they actually lock a compliant system for being grid tied (and no-export).

Here in Thailand, there would be an official with his hand open in order to "grant permission", but I somehow doubt that is the case in Canada.

This makes sense, if there's some kind of an automatic transfer switch that can completely isolate my loads from the grid and use the system to power them, and then as soon as battery+solar run out, isolate the system and switch to grid, maybe they would accept it. For sure, I will have to have them approve the wiring diagram, not trusting the installer this time.

 

[zanydroid]

This makes sense, if there's some kind of an automatic transfer switch that can completely isolate my loads from the grid and use the system to power them, and then as soon as battery+solar run out, isolate the system and switch to grid, maybe they would accept it. For sure, I will have to have them approve the wiring diagram, not trusting the installer this time.

This was the same as one of my suggestions.

While the LuxPower has a transfer switch inside, it’s complicated to prove to the POCO that it implements what they expect.

An external transfer switch, triggered by EG the inverter turning on generator power dry contact, or EG voltage of battery (I think you can use voltage sensing with hysteresis on LFP with 20% cutoff), will make it very hard for POCO to argue that you are parallel to grid.

One tradeoff is the cost of a big enough transfer switch , another is the lack of grid pre sync and higher transfer time when bouncing to grid… both are better than being out $40k

 

[JonahJimson]

You’re going to need rather local advice to sort this out efficiently. IMO while it’s likely someone will reply with a working answer, you won’t be able to sort this out as a solar/gridtie newcomer which advice to follow and how to implement it

Is there an ombudsman or MP you can go through? In addition to the lawyer path.

How are they allowed to lock your system if it is wired for off grid?

Is your installer not willing to design a compliant solution? How is your contract written? Can they subcontract someone to problem solve this from a design angle (depending on contract it may be a change order outside their control). This person would be charged to spend 5-10 hours teasing out your POCO rules, clarifying exactly what they don’t like, and redesigning as needed

Maybe there is a specific way to bid it out on Greenlancer. Unfortunately it’s not simply, “draw up these plans for me”

Engineering wise this is more possible to happen if you configured it in full 200A bypass (all house loads under inverter). If you set it up so only part of the house loads (the amount that sits under 12kW) are served then it works better as an off grid inverter.

I could, but the process could take a long time and I'd rather modify the system to make it acceptable. I'm waiting to hear back from the installer, if they fail to procure an acceptable solution, I'll have no choice but to take legal action. That would be a last resort and I'd like to avoid the extra headache and costs.

As I understand it, an ATS seems to be the simplest solution, modify the system so that my loads are covered by ONLY solar+battery or ONLY grid at any one time. Whether PoCo goons will deem it acceptable, I'll have to see.

 

[zanydroid]

Were you relying on grid connection to power your LFP battery heaters in the winter?

 

[Crowz]

Or move to Alabama and do what ever you want solar wise

 

[zanydroid]

I could, but the process could take a long time and I'd rather modify the system to make it acceptable. I'm waiting to hear back from the installer, if they fail to procure an acceptable solution, I'll have no choice but to take legal action. That would be a last resort and I'd like to avoid the extra headache and costs.

As I understand it, an ATS seems to be the simplest solution, modify the system so that my loads are covered by ONLY solar+battery or ONLY grid at any one time. Whether PoCo goons will deem it acceptable, I'll have to see.

You can probably hire someone to redraw permit ready set with the ATS (and pick an ATS for you). IE piecing out parts of solving the problem.

What I think is the hard part is hiring one guy or gal to own solving the POCO problem completely for you.