Here it goes!

[Yarb]

I'm 73, had 3 heart attacks, bypass surgery and other health issues. I must be out of my mind! I'm doing something brilliant or really really stupid.
After months of research and watching YouTube University I took the plunge and am starting to build my first solar system. The solar companies were quoting $15-26k for a grid tie system and another $13k for a Tesla powerwall. I think I can DIY for under $6k.
I've been working on the transfer switch this week so I can use the house wiring without getting in trouble with the county. Very confusing but I got a farmer friend who has built several systems to check my work.

After months of research and watching YouTube University I got all the parts in today. 8ea. 395 watt solar panels. New, bidirectional so in a ground mount array the can generate 50-100w off the ambient light hitting the back of a panel. Under perfect conditions I could get 500w each.
I am using a Growatt 6kW 48v split phase all in one. The batteries are two A123 LifePo 24v from Bigbattery.com. Please use Will's link so he gets his affiliate royalty and you get 10% off.
I want to try to YouTube the build, something else way out of my expertise.
Tomorrow's challenge: getting that Geowatt shipping weight 170lbs, up on the wall ...

 

[Barry N]

maybe a dumb question but why is solar in the US so expencive? when is see some quotings that nuts .... nice set up

 

[Dzl]

maybe a dumb question but why is solar in the US so expencive? when is see some quotings that nuts .... nice set up

Dunno, it does seem crazy expensive, I suppose labor and warranty on the install has a lot to do with it, not sure beyond that. Where are you from?

 

[Barry N]

@Dzl I am from the Netherlands a "normal" 280wp pannel here is around 85 euro new ( 0.30 euro cents the watt) when you good at shopping

 

[Yarb]

It is so expensive in the States for the same reason we pay the most for mediocre health care. Large corporations use consumer ignorance to build a profit center into a misunderstood commodity. They crush competition by writing legislation to favor only them and control government on all levels by campaign contributions. For example California funded a self generation incentive with US$500 million for battery backup to grid tie systems. Only two batteries are approved for the program, Tesla and one other. The power company only approved engineered systems by the largest solar providers to tie into the grid. To get approval for the "free" Tesla Powerwall you have to buy or lease an over priced grid tie system. You apply for the program through the power company or Tesla. Or your solar installer can apply for you. You pay for the powerwall up front and then hope for a rebate before the fund drys up.

I do have to get a building permit and inspection for the transfer switch that costs more than the switch. The generator, solar and propane, have to be on a cord and plug so it is an appliance. A permanent installation requires more permits and inspections. I am doing ground mount under 100 square feet that are removable. To put it on the roof may trigger having the roof engineered, permited and inspected for more fees. In the solar companies bids are thousands going to the building Department.

 

[Yarb]

@Dzl I am from the Netherlands a "normal" 280wp pannel here is around 85 euro new ( 0.30 euro cents the watt) when you good at shopping

My panels were about 55 cents a watt.

Dunno, it does seem crazy expensive, I suppose labor and warranty on the install has a lot to do with it, not sure beyond that. Where are you from?

California. Our top tier electric rate is 33 cents per Kilowatt hour. The power company is bankrupt because of their equipment caused fires that did $Billions in damages and killed dozens of people. But the board of directors gave them selves $11million in bonuses for doing such a good job. The state approved a massive rate hike next year to pay foe the lawsuits and replacing equipment that should have been replaced years ago.

 

[Pierre]

@Dzl I am from the Netherlands a "normal" 280wp pannel here is around 85 euro new ( 0.30 euro cents the watt) when you good at shopping

That is about what we pay in ZA.

 

[Steve_S]

Yarb, with BiFacial Panels on a ground mount system, I would suggest you consider what is behind / underneath of the panels. The lighter it is the more light is reflected back to the panels. White backgrounds provide maximized full spectrum reflection. Much easier with a Fixed Mount versus a tracker type. Every Watt counts.

TBH, I would not have used an ATS at all, you are not pushing power to the grid for Feed In Tariffs right ?
The Growatts have an internal ATS for flipping between AC sources I believe (may depend on model).
Have the solar charge the batteries, run your essentials off solar/inverter power. Program the Growatt AIO to charge from Grid Power (that's your wall plug grid source) IF the batteries reach Low Volt State. These can also be programmed to take power during Low Peak times to charge batteries for use during High Peak rate times. (many more people are doing this and increasing fast). Genset is attached to the Growatt-AIO and I assume will have an AGSM (Auto-Gen-Start Module) to start it if/when needed, so this again has nothing to do with Grid as it only feeds the Growatt which in turn charges the batteries & provides Pass-through to the connected circuits.

 

[Yarb]

Thanks. I am programming the Geowatt to solar priority . It will then draw from the grid. I did see the generator start feature but can't use it now. I don't have a place for the generator to be left out side. For now I have to pull it out on the driveway, plug it into the transfer switch and start it manually. I'll get to auto start later when I build a shed. I will also use the shed for expansion panels.
I am building the ground mount over the side of a fairly light coloured concrete driveway. I may experiment with white painted plywood under it or mylar over plywood reflectors .

 

[Yarb]

Thanks. I am programming the Geowatt to solar priority . It will then draw from the grid. I did see the generator start feature but can't use it now. I don't have a place for the generator to be left out side. For now I have to pull it out on the driveway, plug it into the transfer switch and start it manually. I'll get to auto start later when I build a shed. I will also use the shed for expansion panels.
I am building the ground mount over the side of a fairly light coloured concrete driveway. I may experiment with white painted plywood under it or mylar over plywood reflectors .

It took me a moment to figure what ATS meant. I had to install a manual transfer switch with a building permit to satisfy local codes. Since the generator, propane or solar, plugs into the transfer switch sub-panel with a cord and plug it is classified as an appliance. If I hard wired it in another permit, inspections and fees. If my temporary car port, with solar panles, is less than 120 sq feet, no permits required. If I put panels on the roof, more permits. They could even require the roof be reengineered and brought up to current code.

 

[Ampster]

The power company only approved engineered systems by the largest solar providers to tie into the grid. To get approval for the "free" Tesla Powerwall you have to buy or lease an over priced grid tie system.

That is incorrect information. I had a grid tie system installed by a local medium sized company. I got a rebate approved for a Tesla Powerwall to be installed by another company.

 

[Steve_S]

Thanks. I am programming the Geowatt to solar priority . It will then draw from the grid. I did see the generator start feature but can't use it now. I don't have a place for the generator to be left out side. For now I have to pull it out on the driveway, plug it into the transfer switch and start it manually. I'll get to auto start later when I build a shed. I will also use the shed for expansion panels.
I am building the ground mount over the side of a fairly light coloured concrete driveway. I may experiment with white painted plywood under it or mylar over plywood reflectors .

Pure White is the best reflector for the Full Light Spectrum better than mirrors or mylar, seriously. Now I personally have not seen "white soil" (I do NOT count that COLD STUFF) so I can't see that as an option unless you had a dump truck load of white granite gravel brought in. The lighter the colour the better.

The GenSet manual switch is understandable in that scenario. I'll be getting another Genny (dual fuel) which I am connecting to the ATS - Solar system so I have to build it a "Dog House" to protect it from the weather but that will allow all the free airflow it needs. Has to have LPG cause gasoline will sour over time while LPG won't and geez what an adventure to find one that IS available now and compatible with a GenStartModule.

 

[Yarb]

That is incorrect information. I had a grid tie system installed by a local medium sized company. I got a rebate approved for a Tesla Powerwall to be installed by another company.

I'm only speaking from my experience. I said the largest by the volume of ads and hype. Some wholesalers will supply stock engineered draws if you buy all the parts from them. I contacted about five companies about the Tesla rebate. None of them seemed to be interested without purchase first. I did talk to a Tesla sales rep who also stopped returning my calls when I mentioned a DIY off grid system. PG&E 's official position is the self generation incentive applied only to grid tie systems meeting their requirements.
I am glad you were more successful then I was. I in no way want to imply that my experience will be the same for everyone.

 

[Yarb]

Can't edit. Second line should read I implied the largest by volume of ads

 

[Ampster]

I absolutely agree about the ads. However, i have never considered ads to be factual. Also, to be clear, the rebate is a State rebate and the purpose was to incentive "self generation" so there has to be some standard. To me it is to Tesla's credit that they had an integrated product and were willing to jump through the hoops to get it certified. I chose to forfeit the credit because I decided I could get a better value doing a DIY system myself. Not everybody can do that and if you take a closer look at the recent statistics there are some others systems that have received the rebate. It is all public information easily accessible. On a larger scale there have been a number of companies that have applied for and received rebates. I am talking about MegaWatt sized systems.

 

[Yarb]

I'm sure it's public information, but I was not able to find information on how to apply directly to the state program. I thought I was on a .ca website but when I clicked on an apply link it took me to a PG&E page to apply. Like you I purchased the batteries from another manufacturer and am pleased with the product. I have expended a few hours trying to apply for the "free" powerwall. The information on the program made no mention of paying for the product and waiting for a rebate. So, thanks again for your response. I think I'll go on to other topics now.

 

[ghostwriter66]

Yarb, with BiFacial Panels on a ground mount system, I would suggest you consider what is behind / underneath of the panels. The lighter it is the more light is reflected back to the panels. White backgrounds provide maximized full spectrum reflection. Much easier with a Fixed Mount versus a tracker type. Every Watt counts.

TBH, I would not have used an ATS at all, you are not pushing power to the grid for Feed In Tariffs right ?
The Growatts have an internal ATS for flipping between AC sources I believe (may depend on model).
Have the solar charge the batteries, run your essentials off solar/inverter power. Program the Growatt AIO to charge from Grid Power (that's your wall plug grid source) IF the batteries reach Low Volt State. These can also be programmed to take power during Low Peak times to charge batteries for use during High Peak rate times. (many more people are doing this and increasing fast). Genset is attached to the Growatt-AIO and I assume will have an AGSM (Auto-Gen-Start Module) to start it if/when needed, so this again has nothing to do with Grid as it only feeds the Growatt which in turn charges the batteries & provides Pass-through to the connected circuits.

Totally agree with Steve ... for the BiF's we layout white high gloss vinyl attached to OSB board and mounted on top of four cinder blocks stood UP instead of laid down .. works fine for us ... we thought that using mirrors or aluminum foil would work better BUT it does NOT and its more expensive .. plus everytime it rains the vinyl gets a free cleaning ...

Also all the GroWatts i am familiar with have their own ATS so you may be using one that I am unfamiliar with ... we actually openly use 2-3 of the same models ...

and like Steve said - I would use the batteries and then have the grid charge the batteries when they are low and the sun can't keep up and when everything goes to crap - hit the GENSET ...

 

[Sojourner]

Program the Growatt AIO to charge from Grid Power (that's your wall plug grid source) IF the batteries reach Low Volt State. These can also be programmed to take power during Low Peak times to charge batteries for use during High Peak rate times. (many more people are doing this and increasing fast).

This (in bold) is what I'd like to do...timeshift power rates. When I bought the Growatt 3000TL LVM-48P from Ian in Utah, when asked about it he was unfamiliar with this capability. He suggested I look into some sort of timer. Browsing the manual, I didn't see anything about it either, so I'm glad you've mentioned it here. Can you point to more info on this? Maybe it's buried in the manual and I just missed it.

 

[Steve_S]

This (in bold) is what I'd like to do...timeshift power rates. When I bought the Growatt 3000TL LVM-48P from Ian in Utah, when asked about it he was unfamiliar with this capability. He suggested I look into some sort of timer. Browsing the manual, I didn't see anything about it either, so I'm glad you've mentioned it here. Can you point to more info on this? Maybe it's buried in the manual and I just missed it.

I saw it on on a couple of YT Video, maybe even on Will's as well, I saw a while back with a GW, There are also a couple of threads I've read in here with folks doing this with different ones like MPP. I remember on YT there was one using a timer & relay setup which was pretty slick using an MPP.