Hi from Canada and looking for opinions

[GettinOutaDoge]

Hey everyone just a dude researching and living in Northern Ontario Canada. I'm looking to get my feet wet in Solar power generation. I hqve a few questions in regards to Net metering, equipment and what not.

Q. 1 is a 5kw system even worth putting on net metering? The reason I ask is I wanted to build a 10kw system but the power company wants me to switch out a brand new 10kw transformer to a 25kw transformer for a cost of almost 9k without credit for the one that was just installed to my new property. I would rather put the $9000 towards a system and not give it to them.

Q. 2 theoretically my thought is put 5kw on net metering and install a seperate 7kw ish system, panels with hybrid and battery back up to run specific circuits in my house removing them from the hydro fed panel. Does anyone know if they allow this? I know my net metering proposal says i can not use battery backup on my net metered connection unless power outage but if I seperate the circuits I want to use from the grid tied technically it's not part of the agreement it's on its own.

Q 3 whats this stuff worth used? I have found a guy selling equipment purchased in 2019 for his grid tie system.
He doesn't have room to ground mount and had to remove the system from his roof for repair due to pigeons nesting and destroying his roof. Besides the the wiring disconnects and what not he has the following that he's asking 8k but open to offers on.

Equipment
LONGI LR6-72BK-335m x 20 @ 335w panels
AP systems YC500a micro inverters x 11
Around 200ft of roof racking hardware
Some pictures attached

Any information or advice is fully appreciated im sure i can make use of the racking and pannels unsure about the micro inverters. Ultimately ai think I would want an all in one inverters on the grid tie side and the seperate system both with some battery storage capacity in the end. I would also want to size those for future expansion. I did find some equipment online to get a ballpark new minus the disconnects and wiring to the tune of roughly $11000 new but i have no idea what the used market value would be and if any of it could be sold if not useful in my new setup ie micro inverters.

 

[ElectricIslander]

Don't know much about on-grid (we are off-grid) but conceptually you can certainly have completely separate systems for on-grid and off-grid loads.

You would probably have to have separate panels, separate grounds and separate wiring though to get it past inspection.

Those AC coupled microinverters would probably be simplest to use on the grid-tied side, a string inverter for DC coupled panels and battery backup would be simplest to install on the off-grid side.

There are hybrid inverters that can do either AC coupled and DC coupled configurations, such as the Schneider XW-Pro that we have off-grid but that's another story.

 

[DIYrich]

Grid -> CT (CT being spot in wire to a Current Transformer to measure current)

5kW -> MTS (manual Transfer switch)
MTS -> CTS (when grid is up)
MTS -> Smart Load input (when grid is down)

CT -> Grid Input of AIO
AIO Load Output -> Main Panel

Set AIO to Zero Export

When Grid is up, the 5kW exports to the Grid Line. Via the CT, the AIO sees the export and either uses it for load, or charges the battery. It it can't use any more, it lets it go to the grid.

When Grid is down, the AIO islands and powers the panel
You can use the MTS to switch the 5kW to the Smart Load input of the AIO to provide additional power. Total available for Load is the AIO plus whatever the 5kW is producing (more advanced: hook up to battery to force export to support greater loads).

Alternatively, the 5kW may be able to be set to priority to export any PV, and NOT charge the common battery. When the grid goes down, then it sends the power to the Battery. Your AIO can pick up the power from the battery. You are limited to AIO power (no help from 5kW).

 

[GettinOutaDoge]

Don't know much about on-grid (we are off-grid) but conceptually you can certainly have completely separate systems for on-grid and off-grid loads.

You would probably have to have separate panels, separate grounds and separate wiring though to get it past inspection.

Those AC coupled microinverters would probably be simplest to use on the grid-tied side, a string inverter for DC coupled panels and battery backup would be simplest to install on the off-grid side.

There are hybrid inverters that can do either AC coupled and DC coupled configurations, such as the Schneider XW-Pro that we have off-grid but that's another story.

 

[GettinOutaDoge]

Don't know much about on-grid (we are off-grid) but conceptually you can certainly have completely separate systems for on-grid and off-grid loads.

You would probably have to have separate panels, separate grounds and separate wiring though to get it past inspection.

Those AC coupled microinverters would probably be simplest to use on the grid-tied side, a string inverter for DC coupled panels and battery backup would be simplest to install on the off-grid side.

There are hybrid inverters that can do either AC coupled and DC coupled configurations, such as the Schneider XW-Pro that we have off-grid but that's another story.

Thanks for the response. In the case of the off grid side I understand about having seperate panel grounds etc but could it come how be connected to draw power to top up batteries or keep those circuits in operation when there is not enough power stored

 

[ElectricIslander]

Thanks for the response. In the case of the off grid side I understand about having seperate panel grounds etc but could it come how be connected to draw power to top up batteries or keep those circuits in operation when there is not enough power stored

Once you get the two seperate systems installed and inspected (if off grid system require inspection in your area) and operational there is nothing to stop you from using an extension cord and a charger (something like a chargeverter) to directly charge your off-grid battery from the grid.

 

[OffGridForGood]

Check if all the extra work, equipment and cost - for two systems and control - will be worthwhile in payback from grid export. (what does the utilty pay compared with what meeting their terms costing you).
In my own system and location I decided is was Not worth the extra work/cost and I use the grid solely to power a chargeverter when needed Nov-Dec-early Jan, and never export to the grid.

As to the question about the used equipment - do a search of what the useful parts would cost you new in your area.
Remember the micro-inverters may be required for roof mount (if you go with roof mount) to meet the RSD (rapid shut down) requirements of the CEC.
Don't fall into a trap of buying used stuff that doesn't fit with your own plans. All the solar equipment and PV prices have been dropping during the last 4-5 years while at the same time becoming better quality as the tech matures.
6600 W of brand new PV is available for 3k CAD and the AP dual units I believe are maybe another 3k (Ck) also would the AP warranty be transferable to you?

 

[GettinOutaDoge]

Check if all the extra work, equipment and cost - for two systems and control - will be worthwhile in payback from grid export. (what does the utilty pay compared with what meeting their terms costing you).
In my own system and location I decided is was Not worth the extra work/cost and I use the grid solely to power a chargeverter when needed Nov-Dec-early Jan, and never export to the grid.

As to the question about the used equipment - do a search of what the useful parts would cost you new in your area.
Remember the micro-inverters may be required for roof mount (if you go with roof mount) to meet the RSD (rapid shut down) requirements of the CEC.
Don't fall into a trap of buying used stuff that doesn't fit with your own plans. All the solar equipment and PV prices have been dropping during the last 4-5 years while at the same time becoming better quality as the tech matures.
6600 W of brand new PV is available for 3k CAD and the AP dual units I believe are maybe another 3k (Ck) also would the AP warranty be transferable to you?

I'm not roof mounting i have a 5 acre property so lots of room. That being said i can make use of the racking and pannels for setup. The guy refuses to sell it seperate.

Here the grid tie is 1 to 1 you get paid the same rate they charge per kw from what I understand. I'm just not convinced despite others saying it's the way to go that it's actually worth it. I perceive it as a way for the power companies to keep there dirty little hands in your wallet to extract some money from you rather than nothing at all if you completely disconnect from the grid. Although I don't think I will ever completely be disconnected from the grid I would certainly like to be less dependent on it.

1 option I'm spending up to 20k to get started on just solar equipment the other option I'm giving half the budget to hydro so I can hopefully mitigate my bills a little.

 

[kommando]

Here the grid tie is 1 to 1 you get paid the same rate they charge per kw from what I understand.

It started that way in the UK, then once they worked out they were losing money it changed so its import at 22p and export at 5p, so I would also be suspicious of the incentive disappearing at a point in the future. I don't get paid for export (diy install so not the right certificate) but I also do not export either and ensure its all used inhouse either for hot water heating or charging batteries.

 

[robbob2112]

If you install separate parallel systems everything would be separate except the ground. There can be only one ground for the dwelling for safety.

Example, you have one offgrid outlet in the kitchen and one on-grid outlet.

You plug an appliance with metal shell into each outlet. The shells are typically grounded. If you use two separate ground rods there could be a difference of potential and a shock hazard.

If you choose 2 rods they need to be tied together with a #6 or bigger. If they are far apart you are inviting damage from lightning

For the equipment, new old-stock 335watt panels are worth $75 to $100usd. Used panels are worth half that. And I would get a meter to test them. Also clean them and check for cracked glass and signs of hot spots.

https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256806775149919.html

It is $40 today, but it varies between $27 and $50.

For ground mount, skip the micro-inverters.

Roof racking isn't terribly useful on the ground, but could be handy attached to your ground mount depending on what you do.

 

[OffGridForGood]

Agree with both of the above:
If they offer 1:1 buy:sell doesn't mean they keep it this way - your building a system based on today's rules but the rules can change without your input at any time. Imagine paying for that transformer they own, then they change the rules in a couple years.

For Ground mount you don't need any micro inverters.
I like bigger PV panels - like 550W since they go up quickly with fewer connections per kW.
If you're in Sudbury area you have access to places that sell new PV within easy driving distance - ie pick them up and save the shipping costs & chance of damage.
No-way I would chance used for a new system - the PV is the cheap part of the system, buy new and be set for 20-years is my thought.

 

[GettinOutaDoge]

Agree with both of the above:
If they offer 1:1 buy:sell doesn't mean they keep it this way - your building a system based on today's rules but the rules can change without your input at any time. Imagine paying for that transformer they own, then they change the rules in a couple years.

For Ground mount you don't need any micro inverters.
I like bigger PV panels - like 550W since they go up quickly with fewer connections per kW.
If you're in Sudbury area you have access to places that sell new PV within easy driving distance - ie pick them up and save the shipping costs & chance of damage.
No-way I would chance used for a new system - the PV is the cheap part of the system, buy new and be set for 20-years is my thought.

Thanks and i am close to Sudbury. I'm trying to source the best place to get the most bang for my buck on all components. I just built this entire house myself and rarely pay full retail for anything.

 

[GettinOutaDoge]

If you install separate parallel systems everything would be separate except the ground. There can be only one ground for the dwelling for safety.

Example, you have one offgrid outlet in the kitchen and one on-grid outlet.

You plug an appliance with metal shell into each outlet. The shells are typically grounded. If you use two separate ground rods there could be a difference of potential and a shock hazard.

If you choose 2 rods they need to be tied together with a #6 or bigger. If they are far apart you are inviting damage from lightning

For the equipment, new old-stock 335watt panels are worth $75 to $100usd. Used panels are worth half that. And I would get a meter to test them. Also clean them and check for cracked glass and signs of hot spots.

https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256806775149919.html

It is $40 today, but it varies between $27 and $50.

For ground mount, skip the micro-inverters.

Roof racking isn't terribly useful on the ground, but could be handy attached to your ground mount depending on what you do.

Good info thanks!

 

[OffGridForGood]

Thanks and i am close to Sudbury.

I bought my first PV panels from the Solar Power Store in Orangeville/Barrie, at the time the prices were good. I think there are a lot more options now in that part of Ontario. If you buy a full pallet of 28-31 PV panels is typically the best bang for your buck. If you can pick them up yourself you save a good chunk compared with shipping costs.

 

[HighDesertDrifter]

I'm not roof mounting i have a 5 acre property so lots of room. That being said i can make use of the racking and pannels for setup. The guy refuses to sell it seperate.

Here the grid tie is 1 to 1 you get paid the same rate they charge per kw from what I understand. I'm just not convinced despite others saying it's the way to go that it's actually worth it. I perceive it as a way for the power companies to keep there dirty little hands in your wallet to extract some money from you rather than nothing at all if you completely disconnect from the grid. Although I don't think I will ever completely be disconnected from the grid I would certainly like to be less dependent on it.

1 option I'm spending up to 20k to get started on just solar equipment the other option I'm giving half the budget to hydro so I can hopefully mitigate my bills a little.

Always go with your gut feeling... imho

 

[nearlypro]

Ah, as you may know, the previous govt had the microfit program that was worth it, like 4 to 1 credits, and I don't think that will come back, but yeah now if its 1 to 1, well do your own sizing and math...

In ottawa, the general safe rule of thumb is that you will get the same amount of kw as the size of system in panels per w... I.e. 1kw panels will produce 1000 kw per year. They tend to inflate the number to 1400, but as you know, it's Canada not California.

Also since you have plenty of space, and if close to ground, have it on a rack that you can change the pitch; in ottawa, although the ideal summer pitch is like 43 degrees, they optimize it by having the angle between 30 to 40, which works out for the most likely common 6 pitch roof, and optimizes for spring and fall, not summer, with winter discounted. Sounds contradicting, but you know our summers, maybe some nice weather in June, 2-3 weeks summer in July, Aug is mix bag from nice to cloudy to rain, so it kinda makes sense... And as you never will, don't forget the snow build up on the ground in winter.

so the pitch, if adjustable, works out to like 30 degrees spring and fall, 45 summer, 60 winter (that pitch pretty much sheds the snow off); check the numbers for Sudbury and for your particular long and lat... and since you have space, and relatively large array, consider, if it would make sense, half oriented SE, half SW... I've seen installations with a rotating panel array, looks insane, and setup money considerations...

Maybe all this would maybe bump you to get 2000 kw a year from 1kw array. Do alot of research to get good estimate numbers, and then be on the low side of that.

Only then will you know if it's worth it and over how many years... or if independence and blackouts are a consideration.

Another twist to propose with gridtie vs off grid portion: you can look at your bill, and see yearly what's your lowest baseline, which usually works out to 1-2kw an hour in September. With a small battery bank, the 5 kw gridtie is perfect to take care of that; 365 x 24 x 1.5 kw = 13000 kw yearly. I'm purely guessing but an average home here spends around 20000 kw, heat source depending etc.
You can in theory size that array small enough that whatever get produced, you use right away...

The lastly time of use vs. Low-high use billing. I'm guessing hydro one? $3 to 5k a year. Either way, check you bills and use OPG online calculator, and see based on your use if its more advantageous to have either; you can work to save the high rate time of use, or save the high of the low-high sysyem; then size either array accordingly. You can already kill your yearly use in half.

Homes in ottawa reportedly have been getting away with 10kw systems for net zero. With the original microfit system, it was profitable that solar installation companies would install a system for free, but take over the profitability of the contract, and you would get all your hydro free.

And lastly I'm sure being from Sudbury, you already have a generator... for the unlikely (or more likely lately) scenarios.

 

[OffGridForGood]

so the pitch, if adjustable, works out to like 45 30 degrees spring and fall, 30 45 summer, 60 winter

FTFY

I tilt up for winter - and use 70 degrees (north of the 49th here), and tilt down after the last likely snow fall to 35-degrees again.
Mostly the tilting is about clearing snow, not gaining a lot of extra kWh. Just tilted up all the arrays on Saturday.

 

[Skythings]

Hey everyone just a dude researching and living in Northern Ontario Canada. I'm looking to get my feet wet in Solar power generation. I hqve a few questions in regards to Net metering, equipment and what not.

Q. 1 is a 5kw system even worth putting on net metering? The reason I ask is I wanted to build a 10kw system but the power company wants me to switch out a brand new 10kw transformer to a 25kw transformer for a cost of almost 9k without credit for the one that was just installed to my new property. I would rather put the $9000 towards a system and not give it to them.

Q. 2 theoretically my thought is put 5kw on net metering and install a seperate 7kw ish system, panels with hybrid and battery back up to run specific circuits in my house removing them from the hydro fed panel. Does anyone know if they allow this? I know my net metering proposal says i can not use battery backup on my net metered connection unless power outage but if I seperate the circuits I want to use from the grid tied technically it's not part of the agreement it's on its own.

Q 3 whats this stuff worth used? I have found a guy selling equipment purchased in 2019 for his grid tie system.
He doesn't have room to ground mount and had to remove the system from his roof for repair due to pigeons nesting and destroying his roof. Besides the the wiring disconnects and what not he has the following that he's asking 8k but open to offers on.

Equipment
LONGI LR6-72BK-335m x 20 @ 335w panels
AP systems YC500a micro inverters x 11
Around 200ft of roof racking hardware
Some pictures attached

Any information or advice is fully appreciated im sure i can make use of the racking and pannels unsure about the micro inverters. Ultimately ai think I would want an all in one inverters on the grid tie side and the seperate system both with some battery storage capacity in the end. I would also want to size those for future expansion. I did find some equipment online to get a ballpark new minus the disconnects and wiring to the tune of roughly $11000 new but i have no idea what the used market value would be and if any of it could be sold if not useful in my new setup ie micro inverters.

I'm also very new to solar and reading your post I thought I would offer some of my insights from a newbies perspective. I have posted my solar journey so far here on these posts. Rural Alberta

I decided to not sell power back to the power company because I didn't want them involved in my decisions and my goal was to be less dependant on governments and corporations who are not looking after my individual interests in regards to electricity. My goal was to not worry about the increasing power outages and brownouts and a less dependable grid as demand for it grows beyond its capacity. Not to mention the huge increases I imagine are coming in the future. Thats just me and I realize most folks want to recoup something for their investment into solar. My read on net metering is it is a marketing tool to sell solar to people with little knowledge on the limitations of solar.

Making you upgrade a new transformer is a silly example of the power companies reach. When you produce your own electricity your grid demand will decrease requiring a smaller transformer in regards to loads unless you're selling back power in huge amounts exceeding the transformer capacity. In 5 years what else will they demand you change? They still control you when you go that way in my opinion. For me the grid will become my backup to my independent solar production and maybe down the road I will go completely off grid. My system is set up where it is impossible for any solar generated electricity to reach the grid so they have no business other than to confirm there is no possibility of energizing their power lines during a grid down event.

I decided to purchase all new equipment and focus on putting the money into the heart of the system. A good hybrid inverter with expansion abilities in regards to adding solar panels and batteries as my needs change or grow. It's expensive to do it right, but you won't regret it once you're operational. Solar panel technology is like computer technology, It rapidly changes and as soon as you install your panels on the roof they are outdated old technology. You can buy 540W bi-facial panels today for $200 each and next year new technology will blow the performance of your old panels out of the water. Buy the best you can today.

I would shy away from used equipment including the rails because your municipality will likely want to see all the certification documents from the manufacturer to pass inspections. Does the seller have them or are they available online? Will you be able to get compatible parts for the rails as an example if you need to buy more for your specific install? When you purchase used equipment you have no warranties and when you learn the used equipment was not compatible with some other elements in your system as you build it into the future you may be limiting yourself.

I decided to build in phases and put together a long term plan as best I could from the beginning. Phase one- One array of 10 panels, insulated power shed to house all the electrical panels, inverter and batteries. Phase two- ground mount with additional panels. Phase three - more panels on barn roof if needed. Phase four- additional battery storage. Today I have completed phase one and am building the ground array for phase two for next spring.

In my research of the Canadian Fire Code I discovered you are limited to the amount of battery storage you can put in your garage attached to your house. I believe it is 20 Kwh. Down the road I wanted a few days worth of battery storage which would be at least 75Kwh of battery storage so I decided to build an insulated shed right from the beginning so I have future expansion abilities. Had I put the batteries in the garage and later decided to build a shed it would have been expensive to do over again to get it right. Trenching lines etc.

I decided on the Sol-Ark 15K inverter because it has all the Certifications needed in Canada and Alberta and can accommodate up to three PV inputs up to 19000W of solar. It has a built in charger for battery charging and had great reviews. There are other excellent options out there but do your research and have a good plan. I could have purchased a smaller less expensive inverter and added a 2nd one down the road as my phases progressed but that was more complicated and more expensive in the long run. Buy right- buy once is my moto.

Who you purchase your equipment from is important. I went with a company in Ontario because they offered to provide my site and design drawings for free if I purchased the equipment from them. They offered free shipping to Alberta and small discount for first time buyers. Financially it turned out good for me and they delivered the equipment as expected but the companies customer service and design capabilities were questionable when I had issues. On the drawings they had my panels facing east (???????) instead of south and there were big problems when I needed the changes. They disappeared. I won't be expecting much assistance from them if I have warranty issues I expect. Send me a private message and I will tell you who they were and offer some positive referrals also.

You're doing the right thing by doing your research. Take everyones opinions and advise and form your own plan. Be flexible as better idea's will present themselves along the way and things always take longer than you plan. Have fun with it. I know I am.

 

[robbob2112]

Buy nothing until you have a plan -

and IMO the price for the used equipment is way to high for what you get and you won't use much of it for a ground mount.

 

[OffGridForGood]

In my research of the Canadian Fire Code I discovered you are limited to the amount of battery storage you can put in your garage attached to your house. I believe it is 20 Kwh.

CEC 2021 code - as I understand it:
no ESS in a home basement (due to flooding concerns) no ESS in living areas (bedrooms, closets of bedrooms living rooms etc due to fire concerns)
Attached Garage you can have up to 40kWh (two 20kWh banks separated by 1m)
Detached Garage/Outbuilding you can have 80kWh Four 20kWh banks separated by 1m each).
This is the way I read it, do your own research and inquiry.
You can park a 246kWh E-Hummer beside your two stacks of 20kWh in an attached garage and that would be allowed.

SolArk is expensive - but you may have local support. There are other inverters with CSA/UL certifications as well, but it should be about what features you want/need as well. Since you are not interested in net-metering or feed-in to the grid (and I agree with a lot of your reasons) you don't need an interactive hybrid inverter, you could go with a off-grid inverter and just charge from the grid in Nov/Dec - lower cost.
I decided to go with basic off-grid equipment to get started, and put more effort and money into the batteries and panels.
Currently I am upgrading the inverters (as you say, the tech has changed very fast over about four years) my new inverters will allow me to add RSD and AFDD (rapid shut down and arc fault detection/shutdown) features if I ever need to ...ie if I am ordered to.

 

[OffGridForGood]

the general safe rule of thumb is that you will get the same amount of kw as the size of system in panels per w... I.e. 1kw panels will produce 1000 kw per year. They tend to inflate the number to 1400, but as you know, it's Canada not California.

1kW of PV panels will produce 1,000kW-hours of energy...or so yes,
I can say my 13kW array makes more than 13MWh per year, damn little of it during Nov-Dec thou.
The best way to predict solar collection per month is with PVWatts

I suggest anyone doing the research to type in their location and plug in a 1kW PV array into PV Watts, use their latatude as the tilt angle and let the system show you what you can expect per 1-kW of array as a starting point. The PVWatts output shows kWh per month - divide by the days in the month to get daily average. Since you used 1-kW array size, it is easy to multiply up, to suit your actual needs.

Then keep in mind how many rainny cloudy days in a row you Might get. For me 4-5 days can easily happen - so I built a large ESS to address this reality, and avoid dryer or other non-essential loads during extended poor weather periods.
If you have grid available for charging, then you don't need a system that will run from solar in Nov-Dec, you can charge up from grid - if you have Time of Use rates, charge up during low cost energy time of day, and use energy when you like.