High current LiFePO4 cells for Bowthruster

[flemmingdjensen]

Hi,

Has anybody any experience with high current cells that can supply enough current to drive a bowthruster??

I have a Maxpower retractable that id 4500W about 450 amps and I want to build a lithium battery for that.

The best I can find is CATL cells from Basen Technologi.

These cells seems to be able to handle 2C and maybe 3C for 10 secs which would be enough for my thruster.

Any experience / suggestions???

BR Flemming

 

[snoobler]

Help I am in a deep deep hole with Connect my lithium batteries

I am not used to write in English, so I hope it can be understanding. I have seen a lot of YouTube videos and have also been a little bit wiser by them, but I am still in a deep hole. I hope somebody can help me up from the deep hole. I have a sailboat where I would like to replace the old lead...

diysolarforum.com

Want advice on high current demanded 24V 280AH

Hi all, need advice on high current demanded 25.6V 280AH battery bank for my boat bow thruster. The thruster motor is 24V and will pull up to 300A. My question is, should I build a) one single 25.6V 280AH with 8 280AH cells in series and 400A BMS or b) two 25.6V 140AH with 8 140AH cells in...

diysolarforum.com

A 450A motor may pull even more current due to surge.

BMS is also a concern.

 

[MattiFin]

Headway 8Ah cylindrical cells boast 20C (160A) continuous discharge and 25C (200A)burst.
I'd probably put 4 in parallel in hopes to extend their lifetime. These are something like 15 usd per piece so set of 16 would be only ~240usd assuming that 32Ah is enough capacity for you.

 

[Rocketman]

Look at 100ah Fortune cells. https://www.electriccarpartscompany.com/Fortune-100Ah-Aluminum-Encased-Battery

They say they have a 2C discharge w/ a 6C surge! I have read that they those cells handle marine issues best. (Rocking, etc.).

I am using the 25ah Fortune cells in a portable battery and I like the quality of the cells.
Good Luck

 

[flemmingdjensen]

Thanks for your suggestions - so maybe I should look elsewhere than Basen Technology that seems to only have 1C discharge cells

I need about 200AH because the same battery will handle the thruster + electric winch + anchor winch. The highest current load being the thruster but that one is only used in small bursts of maybe 5-10 secs

 

[TKB4]

Earlier when I did a search these cells came up. Not sure if its accurate or not but they say 3c or 300 amp continuous and 200 amp charge ? same cell with typo ?
fortune-12v100ah-lithium-battery

 

[TKB4]

Headway 8Ah cylindrical cells boast 20C (160A) continuous discharge and 25C (200A)burst.
I'd probably put 4 in parallel in hopes to extend their lifetime. These are something like 15 usd per piece so set of 16 would be only ~240usd assuming that 32Ah is enough capacity for you.

I was going to start a thread but wasn't sure where to post it . Found this one will ask here for now. I want to make some Lifepo4 batteries in 12 volt for large starting batteries . I need at least 800 cranking amps and prefer up to 1,000. I dont care so much about total storage capacity. I searched for high discharge cells and really preferred prismatic cells. I found some high discharge prismatic but they were 280 ah at 3c and way too expensive because they were 3.5 kw batteries which I dont need . I did find some 25 ah prismatic cells that were 6c IIRC that could have worked at 4s4p. Then I started looking at lithium titanate which would be ideal d/c wise but very expensive . now back to thinking about the headway ells 4p4S or even 5p4s and they would be about the right size and I think ones I saw could charge down to -4F but it rarely gets below 15 here and they cab dc much lower than charge. The engine would warm them up quickly maybe too hot at times. I see 12 volt lifepo4 batteries for sale that say they are 100 or 120AH with max 800 or more amps d/c that I think are prismatic cells but maybe not.If I used the 100ah Fortune cells I would feel better with 2p4S and that would be overkill and expensive.

So now looking for other prismatic or use the headway type cells. It would be just so much easier to find 120ah 6c cells and use 4S and have about the right reserve capacity and starting power. I dont mind heating them if I have to. Guess I will keep looking or find other LTO cells

Second part of question I may post separately. If I do find the appropriate cells what BMS would I have to use . I wasn't sure if dc rate mattered much except for wire size but definitely charge rate did because thats all I cared about with solar storage. Now I see they are usually limited to about twice charging rate . I would need a 500amp BMS if that the case but its only for about 10 seconds at a time so maybe not .Guess I will be doing more research. BTW the reason need at least 800ca is its F350 7,3 liter diesel.

If you read this much any help appreciated. maybe there is already info about this here .

 

[Rocketman]

TKB4 - There are 2 types/styles of BMS's - One type that has the negative wire go through it (Daly, Overkill, etc.) These BMS's have discharge limits. The second style uses a contractor to shut-off the power. Batrium, Rec-BMS, and Orion Jr. These tend to be more expensive - then you have to get all the stuff around them - Contractors, etc.
You can also make a small BMS run a Contractor - then all your high powered stuff goes through the contractor.
The contractor I will be using is Tyco EV200AAANA - Gigavac also make some.

Mine will be a house battery on a Diesel MotorHome - I wanted to keep the Boost ability. It sounds like you are going to use the battery as a starting battery.
Here are the challenges that I know about:
1. Alternator voltage - you will need to regulate the alternator so the voltage works with lithium - the default is constant 14.2-ish volts - this will overcharge the battery and have the bms shutdown the battery - which leads to point
2. if the alternator is charging and the bms cuts off - you can get an alternator spike and possible blow the alternator diodes.
3. Cold - alternator will start charging when the engine starts - you could be charging a too cold battery (i know you probably live in an area where that's not a problem - lucky you).

Looking at the market I found a Balmer regulator that can charge lithium batteries, a Sterling alternator protect - that will save the alternator if the battery drops out unexpected. and I figure designing a case with some heaters could overcome the cold - if one was willing to turn on the heaters - then wait to until the battery was warmer to start the vehicle.

What other challenges do you see in using a lithium as a starting battery?

 

[TKB4]

TKB4 - There are 2 types/styles of BMS's - One type that has the negative wire go through it (Daly, Overkill, etc.) These BMS's have discharge limits. The second style uses a contractor to shut-off the power. Batrium, Rec-BMS, and Orion Jr. These tend to be more expensive - then you have to get all the stuff around them - Contractors, etc.
You can also make a small BMS run a Contractor - then all your high powered stuff goes through the contractor.
The contractor I will be using is Tyco EV200AAANA - Gigavac also make some.

Mine will be a house battery on a Diesel MotorHome - I wanted to keep the Boost ability. It sounds like you are going to use the battery as a starting battery.
Here are the challenges that I know about:
1. Alternator voltage - you will need to regulate the alternator so the voltage works with lithium - the default is constant 14.2-ish volts - this will overcharge the battery and have the bms shutdown the battery - which leads to point
2. if the alternator is charging and the bms cuts off - you can get an alternator spike and possible blow the alternator diodes.
3. Cold - alternator will start charging when the engine starts - you could be charging a too cold battery (i know you probably live in an area where that's not a problem - lucky you).

Looking at the market I found a Balmer regulator that can charge lithium batteries, a Sterling alternator protect - that will save the alternator if the battery drops out unexpected. and I figure designing a case with some heaters could overcome the cold - if one was willing to turn on the heaters - then wait to until the battery was warmer to start the vehicle.

What other challenges do you see in using a lithium as a starting battery?

I had thought about using relays . I also have been thinking about the different chemistries and trying to use a number of cells that the 13 or so alternator volt would not reach the overcharge voltage of the pack but would mayne charge the battery to 70 or 80 percent of capacity thus also improving its longevity in charging cycles. For instance using 7 LTO cells would be 16.1 volt nominal but would never be charged that high but that may not leave much in its d/c curve. I also thought about leaving Pb acid in the loop maybe with a diode setup to prevent current flowing undesired direction. I also thought about using Buck converter to covert alternator charge voltage to whatever max voltage is desired. I think there are ways to use resistors or alter the alternator to prevent the voltage spikes. Size / shape of the pack can be an issue . For instance Lifepo4 cells if you have to use 8 cells 4p4s to get enough cranking amps then you either have 8 cells in a row or a square pack of 4 and 4 cells or some other arrangement. Usually this wont matter much since the cells are relatively smaller . I am sure there are more I have either forgotten or not thought about yet.

 

[MattiFin]

I had thought about using relays . I also have been thinking about the different chemistries and trying to use a number of cells that the 13 or so alternator volt would not reach the overcharge voltage of the pack but would mayne charge the battery to 70 or 80 percent of capacity thus also improving its longevity in charging cycles. For instance using 7 LTO cells would be 16.1 volt nominal but would never be charged that high but that may not leave much in its d/c curve. I also thought about leaving Pb acid in the loop maybe with a diode setup to prevent current flowing undesired direction. I also thought about using Buck converter to covert alternator charge voltage to whatever max voltage is desired.

Maybe better to change the alternator to one of the "smart" models.
AFAIK GM would be nearly perfect

GM and other "smart" alternator control

Balmar being rather expensive and close to non-existing here in Europe I was looking for alternative options to charge LiFepo4 battery bank with higher currents and thought about taking advantage of "smart" alternator feature on many cars. GM alternators for example seem to be super simple to...

diysolarforum.com

Ford alternators should also default to 13.7v if feedback is missing?

Gears Magazine - A Common Sense Approach to Charging System Diagnosis

In the previous article, we discussed the issues and operations related to the charging systems in common use today. Charging system problems may cause various vehicle issues, such as transmission shift and pressure control problems, DTCs, and driveability-related complaints. Testing the...

gearsmagazine.com

13.7v should be safe for lifepo4 starter battery.

 

[flemmingdjensen]

Well I have decided to go for the Lischen 272AH from Basen Tech

They are rated 2C for 60 sec and this should allow the thruster to work fine. The future will tell

I will top balance them to 3.65V and run the thruster directly. The other loads will run through a 200A BMS from DALY

 

[TKB4]

Maybe better to change the alternator to one of the "smart" models.
AFAIK GM would be nearly perfect

GM and other "smart" alternator control

Balmar being rather expensive and close to non-existing here in Europe I was looking for alternative options to charge LiFepo4 battery bank with higher currents and thought about taking advantage of "smart" alternator feature on many cars. GM alternators for example seem to be super simple to...

diysolarforum.com

Ford alternators should also default to 13.7v if feedback is missing?

Gears Magazine - A Common Sense Approach to Charging System Diagnosis

In the previous article, we discussed the issues and operations related to the charging systems in common use today. Charging system problems may cause various vehicle issues, such as transmission shift and pressure control problems, DTCs, and driveability-related complaints. Testing the...

gearsmagazine.com

13.7v should be safe for lifepo4 starter battery.

Thanks good information . I will jeep that in mind .

 

[flemmingdjensen]

I will try a Victron Orion Tr-smart 12/12 30Amps for optimizing charging from the generator / start battery

 

[CaptGregR]

Flemmingdjensen, how did you calculate that 2C for 60s is right? I am doing the same thing. However, being a newbie, I already ordered my LISH 272 cells. My bow thruster is a 24v 8kW and was setting up an 8S2P battery bank using an Electrodacus SBMS0.

 

[flemmingdjensen]

Flemmingdjensen, how did you calculate that 2C for 60s is right? I am doing the same thing. However, being a newbie, I already ordered my LISH 272 cells. My bow thruster is a 24v 8kW and was setting up an 8S2P battery bank using an Electrodacus SBMS0.

Well my Max Power retractable 12V is rated at 446A 4.8KW and 2C of the 272AH Lish is 540Amps.

The datasheet of these cells says 2C for 60 sec. I guess I use the thruster in bursts of maybe 5-10secs and for the thruster I will go without BMS. I WILL connect a BMS though for an electric winch and for charging / balancing the cells

In theory it should work - looking forward to testing it out!

 

[greyghost]

Well my Max Power retractable 12V is rated at 446A 4.8KW and 2C of the 272AH Lish is 540Amps.

The datasheet of these cells says 2C for 60 sec. I guess I use the thruster in bursts of maybe 5-10secs and for the thruster I will go without BMS. I WILL connect a BMS though for an electric winch and for charging / balancing the cells

In theory it should work - looking forward to testing it out!

@flemmingdjensen I am in a similar situation wrt thruster batteries. Please report back on how your system works. I’m guessing there are a number of us who would like to hear.

Cheers,
Doug

 

[DJSmiley]

running without a BMS.. I don't like that, since the thrusters aren't shutdown when cells are empty

you can connect a small relay on the BMS, with a NC contact to a alarm. If the BMS shuts down due to low cell, the relay will releas and force the alarm. (Alarm directly to the cells with a manual override switch to keep it silent when you're aware of it)

Or use a big contactor such as https://www.gigavac.com/sites/default/files/catalog/spec_sheet/mx15.pdf which is connected to the BMS. The contactor will shutdown the load if the BMS detecs low voltage

 

[sshibly]

I would use a relay based bms product, bow thrusters rock,
just put enough cells in parallel to max the max amps.\
3 280AH cells in parallel will be more than adequate.
I am thinking of adding a 100A stern drive to troll for walleye in shallow water with stumps

 

[Joe Harter]

Hi,

Has anybody any experience with high current cells that can supply enough current to drive a bowthruster??

I have a Maxpower retractable that id 4500W about 450 amps and I want to build a lithium battery for that.

The best I can find is CATL cells from Basen Technologi.

These cells seems to be able to handle 2C and maybe 3C for 10 secs which would be enough for my thruster.

Any experience / suggestions???

BR Flemming

You may be better off going with 1 or 2 sealed or AGM batteries for your bow thruster the same as you would do for your high amp engine starter since you will only be using the bow thruster periodically & in short bursts. From what I have heard your bow thruster batteries should be mounted in the bow to keep the power cables short. Then smaller wires to the battery charger. I suppose that you would use some type of left/off/right contactor in the power cables?

 

[Joe Harter]

You are only going to be using the bow thruster for close quarter maneuverability. I don't believe that's the time to have a BMS trip out your battery.