Home Insurance & Non UL Approved Equipment

[wmgeorge]

Correct. I had to deal with Farm B______ Ins Company on a roof damage claim from hail. I only got paid 1/2 up front and could not get the rest of the money until I Proved to them I had the work done. Meaning I had to pay the roofing Co. up front. Then within 60 days I got notice of a rate increase!! Your agent is mister nice guy the claims dept is as above... hell.

 

[SparkyJJO]

Guess I have a better one. They paid 80% of the roof estimate up front and then left directions that whatever the contractor goes above for the contractor to bill them direct. And my rates have not gone up. Oh, I was only a customer of theirs for 6 months before a storm ripped up shingles.

My new roof actually came in a fair bit less than their estimate by the adjuster, so end result was I didn't actually have to pay the deductible and that 80% was plenty to cover the whole thing. Win.

 

[keepsake]

ETL counts for UL listing.

ETL counts. It's just as valid as UL listing.

But noting ... Amazon claims UL listing and product does not. Doesn't matter what we think here, lawyer and the law would collect.

 

[wmgeorge]

But noting ... Amazon claims UL listing and product does not. Doesn't matter what we think here, lawyer and the law would collect.

You are 100% correct, Amazon lets venders put anything up for sale. However I understand there is a China UL stamp? I know zero about how it works or not. But US UL listed is what counts and just putting it on a device does not make it so. Insurance companies want to weasel out of paying if they can, you can take them to court if you want however.

 

[ArkRob]

Answers to questions like this are incredibly location and company specific.

 

[Lighthouse Beacon]

Old thread, but wanted to mention it appears the general statistical probability your house burns is 1:850 per year. So let’s all draw straws and see who loses. Probably not a bad idea to do wifi enabled smoke detectors and add fire extinguishers. Early detection (much like anything) is crucial.

 

[Nobodybusiness]

Noticing how much of the DIY solar equipment being sold doesn’t have any UL or cUL listing, or approvals of any sort for that matter, I’m wondering how using these items could affect an owner’s home insurance if a claim was to arise?

I brought this up a while back and got all kinds of answers.
It’s just most people haven’t had to deal with it yet.

No disasters to contend with insurance companies yet.

Lots of folks on here run DIY, non UL, non inspected stuff.

Hopefully it doesn’t affect any claims but knowing insurance companies, I’ll bet they use anything they can to deny a claim.

Some of these folks can’t get insurance without UL listed and inspected gear so they get the right stuff and get it inspected.

It’s a wait and see I guess.

 

[Lighthouse Beacon]

I brought this up a while back and got all kinds of answers.
It’s just most people haven’t had to deal with it yet.

No disasters to contend with insurance companies yet.

Lots of folks on here run DIY, non UL, non inspected stuff.

Hopefully it doesn’t affect any claims but knowing insurance companies, I’ll bet they use anything they can to deny a claim.

Some of these folks can’t get insurance without UL listed and inspected gear so they get the right stuff and get it inspected.

It’s a wait and see I guess.

Yes, both directions. Insurance companies getting leaner operating margins so more willingness to fight pay outs, coupled with significant increases in Chinese/non regulated electronics in homes. I’m in Florida so these companies would rather spend more money fighting a claim then paying out. A lot of abuse here though. Given you keep your installs clean and gear clear of combustibles it should be mostly mitigated. I’ve seen some diy setups in some questionable rooms/setups here though.. guess we’ll all roll the dice… I think we still have a higher probability of dying in a car accident tho?

 

[Hymie]

On the overall scheme of things I think we’re on the wild frontier with respect to solar and especially energy storage. Regulations change by the day and yet still aren’t up to speed with the tech available never mind the local inspector. It doesn’t help that information and equipment is available from all over the world and may not be pertinent or even allowed in one’s own jurisdiction.

 

[peakbagger]

BTW This is the Commonwealth of Massachusetts Fire Marshall's guidance to AHJs regarding home batteries. https://www.mass.gov/doc/supersedin...ns-in-one-and-two-family-dwellings-0/download

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[Oldphile]

I called my insurance company to inform them that I now have solar PV on my roof. They had 3 questions;
Was the system professionally installed?
How many KW is it to which I asked AC or DC? She was totally baffled.
How much did the system cost?

Then there was a discussion about what the master policy covered. It's a condo. I further explained that the system had a central inverter in the garage. Again, she had no idea what I was talking about, but said she would make a note. It was a very pleasant conversation.

 

[millsan1]

BTW This is the Commonwealth of Massachusetts Fire Marshall's guidance to AHJs regarding home batteries. https://www.mass.gov/doc/supersedin...ns-in-one-and-two-family-dwellings-0/download

I

Reason #964 why MA sucks

 

[Hymie]

Here’s a couple related links as to the issue of Energy Storage Systems (ESS) in eastern Canada. I’m in Ontario and have run into a similar situation as the articles outline. Of note is the reference that an update may be coming in the spring of 2024. We hope so as it is now in a cold weather area an ESS is virtually unpractical according to the rules.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/prin...tery-storage-electrical-code-issues-1.6693891
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/prin...y-storage-solar-power-still-waiting-1.6965544

 

[Crowz]

I can't find anything on the net at least that says you have to have ul listed stuff for anything as it pertains to home owners insurance.

That said if your location (state, etc) requires certain things by law to be in compliance power wise then they could play that card in court to try to deny a claim. But since you don't have to hunt for ul listed items for your tv, toaster, etc there is no logical reason your solar stuff requires it unless otherwise required by your state, county, city, etc.

 

[Nobodybusiness]

I can't find anything on the net at least that says you have to have ul listed stuff for anything as it pertains to home owners insurance.

That said if your location (state, etc) requires certain things by law to be in compliance power wise then they could play that card in court to try to deny a claim. But since you don't have to hunt for ul listed items for your tv, toaster, etc there is no logical reason your solar stuff requires it unless otherwise required by your state, county, city, etc.

I don’t know how insurance requires adds to homes.
Counties usually require permits for structural, electrical and mechanical.
Does that mean UL listed?
Not sure.

I just can’t see insurance companies covering claims because of negligent installs regardless of UL or anything else.

There has to be some point where the insurance company says ok that is fine.

 

[kennyb]

When we were shopping for new insurance companies the local company actually drove out here.

They wanted to see the building permit, engineering documents for the roof, and the electrical inspection report to insure the solar system. What was funny was that was because it was a new build. Had I said I purchased the building like that, they didn't care about any of that.

I don't know why anyone would risk it though . At least here, house prices are rediculous. Almost everyone has a massive mortgage. Would be pretty shit to be left holding the bag owing the bank with no asset after a total loss.

I don't see it as much difference to auto insurance. Lots of modified cars around here have no coverage after an accident when the insurance finds out that A, the modification wasn't declared, and B, used "for off road use only" parts. There was a news story a while back about a BRZ being a total loss and claim denied because the owner changed the exhaust.

But then again Ontario is a shitshow for insurance.

 

[Hymie]

What I’m learning the hard way from my recent experience is to get electrical work that is connected to the grid, and by that I mean even only drawing from it, passed by inspectors, the equipment must be certified with an appropriate certifying body. That may mean, as in Canada, cUL, CSA, or ETL. Once passed one gets a sign off which one can send to one’s insurance company. As far as insurance goes the devil is probably in the fine print of the policy stating that alterations to one’s property must meet code and the only way to verify that is to get it inspected.

 

[Lighthouse Beacon]

I’ve tried various wifi smoke detectors but this is my favorite combination. I’ve tested and smoke tested these units. Based on price I like using these in as many rooms as possible including in attics and basements, the great thing about Ring also is it integrates with existing systems well and the real time push notifications, emergency dialing, and indoor and outdoor auditory alert systems you can build, as well as push routine programs via Alexa integration. I want to know immediately when smoke is detected and not rely on being there… or my neighbor smelling it…. I recommend
Had to get a shot with the Sungold Logo in it… lmao

 

[Hedges]

Much of the crap out of china is anything but UL listed. https://a.co/d/4rN10BW
Top item in image is what they sold a year ago, bottom is current. What is missing ?
Ad at that link claims UL listing, FRAUD from Amazon. Surprise !! Not.

ETL counts for UL listing.

ETL counts. It's just as valid as UL listing.

UL vs ETL certifications: What's the difference? - RackSolutions

You see UL and ETL certifiations all over the place but what exactly do they mean and is there a difference between them?

www.racksolutions.com

"The main difference between UL and ETL listed products is that ETL doesn’t create its own standards for certification. UL develops standards that are used by other organizations, including ETL.

Both are Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratories (NRTLs). They serve as non-governmental labs that operate independently. Additionally, they are recognized by OSHA as being suitable labs to test products based on safety standards."

ETL Listed Mark

www.intertek.com

"Here is a List of Standards we test to for the North American Market

• ASME
• ASTM
• ANSI
• CSA
• NFPA
• NOM
• NSF
• UL / ULC

Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory:
As an OSHA Recognized NRTL in the U.S., Intertek is able to test and certify products for its customers across its global network of laboratories. Read more..."

 

[42OhmsPA]

I’ve tried various wifi smoke detectors but this is my favorite combination. I’ve tested and smoke tested these units. Based on price I like using these in as many rooms as possible including in attics and basements, the great thing about Ring also is it integrates with existing systems well and the real time push notifications, emergency dialing, and indoor and outdoor auditory alert systems you can build, as well as push routine programs via Alexa integration. I want to know immediately when smoke is detected and not rely on being there… or my neighbor smelling it…. I recommendView attachment 181193View attachment 181195View attachment 181200
Had to get a shot with the Sungold Logo in it… lmao

I'm glad to see you have traditional detectors as well... What happens to the ring when the interwebs go down?