Hot environment suggestions
- Thread starter dorian
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grizzzman
Photon Vampire
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I have purchased this pelter cooler. I am planning on building an insulated box. I will use 12-volt heat tape for the winter. But for now, its in the house.
eddie1261
Solar Enthusiast
45C? Where do you live that you see 113F temps? Right ON the sun?
grizzzman
Photon Vampire
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I have seen 120f temps during the summer when it is stored here in the Salt Lake valley.
Last edited:
eddie1261
Solar Enthusiast
Oh. When you referred to temperature in centigrade I assumed you were not in the USA.
grandvalleydave
New Member
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I also frequently am out in the significant heat and need to make sure my battery array (under construction) will be protected and operational. We regularly see 104+ degrees air temp, and I’m sure the temp in my caravan can get over 120. So I am exploring active and passive cooling systems. The battery array will be Lithium-Iron Phosphate. I am working to size it so I can install a mini-split HVAC system that will help cool the entire caravan, but I’d like to explore having backup/secondary systems in place.
The battery array will be under a dinette bench inside the caravan.
Would a heat sink be a solution?
How about with a computer 12v fan?
Should my inverter/charge controller/converter be segregated from the battery array for thermal issues?
Thanks for suggestions/comments/assistance!
Dave
The battery array will be under a dinette bench inside the caravan.
Would a heat sink be a solution?
How about with a computer 12v fan?
Should my inverter/charge controller/converter be segregated from the battery array for thermal issues?
Thanks for suggestions/comments/assistance!
Dave
Here in Michigan my car regularly gets to 120F INSIDE the car in the summer sun, and the top of my house roof in the summer easily exceeds that on a regular basis. Yes, I actually keep a thermometer inside my car. It was hotter than expected. And I have a thermometer in my attic and that has reached 110F in the summer.
If your ambient temperature is 110F then AFAIK a heat sink will not get you below 110F. Correct me if I'm wrong, I'd like to know a way to cool things down too.
I might try a small peltier cooler but I've heard they are very inefficient.
Some people get a cooler full of one large block of ice (a block lasts longer), and run tubing to the item they want to cool, and circulate cool water around the item back to the melting ice in the cooler. There are also electric coolers out there but avoid the Peltier ones.
So here's a brain storm. Underground temps are about 65-70F, so put your item underground, in appropriate vapor-resistant containers of course. You will need about 6-8" of dirt above your boxed item in order to keep it cool.
To increase efficiency you might need to do several things at once: keep the item in the shade, underground, in an electric cooler. Be aware of condensation due to temperature differences. Cool surfaces tend to condense water on them.
Steve_S
Offgrid Cabineer, N.E. Ontario, Canada
I have a pair of products which I use to move air for cooling / heating and even my own DIY Air Exchanger (complete with digital control).
If you need to move air for circulation and want some control by temps etc, while also being very Power Frugal as well, have a look at these products.
NOTE, They "may appear" to be cheap computer fans and variations, they are NOT... Cast Aluminium, silent ball bearings (no cheap rollers) and seriously made to last - no crap parts at all ! Not Crazy Expensive either, very cost effective.
Main Page: https://www.acinfinity.com/
AC Powered Axial Fans: https://www.acinfinity.com/ac-axial-fans/
USB / DC Powered Axial Fans: https://www.acinfinity.com/quiet-usb-fans/
Controllers and such are available for these and the vast array of cooling / air movement solutions. I have no vested interest in this company, other than amazingly good experience using their products, Their support is also outstanding which also says a huge amount too.
If you need to move air for circulation and want some control by temps etc, while also being very Power Frugal as well, have a look at these products.
NOTE, They "may appear" to be cheap computer fans and variations, they are NOT... Cast Aluminium, silent ball bearings (no cheap rollers) and seriously made to last - no crap parts at all ! Not Crazy Expensive either, very cost effective.
Main Page: https://www.acinfinity.com/
AC Powered Axial Fans: https://www.acinfinity.com/ac-axial-fans/
USB / DC Powered Axial Fans: https://www.acinfinity.com/quiet-usb-fans/
Controllers and such are available for these and the vast array of cooling / air movement solutions. I have no vested interest in this company, other than amazingly good experience using their products, Their support is also outstanding which also says a huge amount too.
JeepHammer
Solar Wizard
- Joined
- Nov 15, 2019
- Messages
- 1,149
The obvious for me is underground.
Either buried air tubes that cool air (geothermal) and pump cold air into the battery box,
Or get a water tight box with open top (above ground level) and let the ground suck the heat out.
A metal box buried makes a really big heat sink that's cooled on one side.
Depends on the size of what you need to cool...
I went earth sheltered, container with dirt on 3 sides & top.
Solved all my water & battery freezing/overheat problems.
Either buried air tubes that cool air (geothermal) and pump cold air into the battery box,
Or get a water tight box with open top (above ground level) and let the ground suck the heat out.
A metal box buried makes a really big heat sink that's cooled on one side.
Depends on the size of what you need to cool...
I went earth sheltered, container with dirt on 3 sides & top.
Solved all my water & battery freezing/overheat problems.
It hasn’t gotten above 105F here in Charlotte in the last 35years I’ve been here... attic temps for SURE get higher, but that’s not where my batteries are. I have been considering an underground setup... one of my rental houses has a partial basement... I might consider that.
My goal was to excavate under my main house... my place is up on a plateau, so, that wouldn’t be too big a deal to build...
Time...
Maast
Compulsive Tinkerer
I think I remember reading in Home Power magazine somebody buried something like 6 or 8 parallel fifty foot 10" plastic pipes and then used a tall metal chimney painted flat black to draw the cooled air into the house. He was pretty happy with it but said it'd smell musty now and then.
Something like that in smaller scale would probably work for you, and batteries won't care what it smells like.
Something like that in smaller scale would probably work for you, and batteries won't care what it smells like.
JeepHammer
Solar Wizard
- Joined
- Nov 15, 2019
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Earth sheltered, above grade, dirt pushed up and over the top.
Don't have flooding issues this way.
If it goes below grade, water issues have to be considered.
I would suggest a military surplus, look for something that can go deep, you need to leave the top above grade to keep hard, standing rain out, and see a sheet metal place about a lid if you don't get one.
My first cold storage for produce was a scrap chest freezer buried and it worked pretty well, small footprint.
-----------
I do flexible plastic pipe for cooling & warming, but you need space.
Keeps no power venting that temp controlled going 24/7.
A tall vent pipe siphons, inlets out and away at ground level with green cover, constant flow with no power.
Air gets cooled, sinks, falls into cool storage, vent in the roof of cool storage siphons air once it warms up and rises to ceiling...
A little vent fan helps things along...
Don't have flooding issues this way.
If it goes below grade, water issues have to be considered.
I would suggest a military surplus, look for something that can go deep, you need to leave the top above grade to keep hard, standing rain out, and see a sheet metal place about a lid if you don't get one.
My first cold storage for produce was a scrap chest freezer buried and it worked pretty well, small footprint.
-----------
I do flexible plastic pipe for cooling & warming, but you need space.
Keeps no power venting that temp controlled going 24/7.
A tall vent pipe siphons, inlets out and away at ground level with green cover, constant flow with no power.
Air gets cooled, sinks, falls into cool storage, vent in the roof of cool storage siphons air once it warms up and rises to ceiling...
A little vent fan helps things along...
jmcroy
New Member
- Joined
- Jan 20, 2020
- Messages
- 6
I think if dry heat (out west), look into "evaporative cooling" / swamp coolers.
I think if humid, like where I and Florida guy live, evaporative cooling is a no-go. Then I think vapor compression/expansion like mini-fridge and traditional A/C technology is a more energy-efficient solution than is the peltier cooler (I think). But peltier may be cheaper. "electrical enclosure cooling" is what I've been looking at. Many companies sell solutions to cool enclosures, even peltier ones. Geothermal with heat pump is also very energy efficient (like by a good bit) and can provide much cooling, but I think relatively expensive and a much more involved project than would be a peltier or A/C unit. That's the understanding that my research thus far has led me to. I am also evaluating something similar for LiFePO4 in the SE USA.
I think if humid, like where I and Florida guy live, evaporative cooling is a no-go. Then I think vapor compression/expansion like mini-fridge and traditional A/C technology is a more energy-efficient solution than is the peltier cooler (I think). But peltier may be cheaper. "electrical enclosure cooling" is what I've been looking at. Many companies sell solutions to cool enclosures, even peltier ones. Geothermal with heat pump is also very energy efficient (like by a good bit) and can provide much cooling, but I think relatively expensive and a much more involved project than would be a peltier or A/C unit. That's the understanding that my research thus far has led me to. I am also evaluating something similar for LiFePO4 in the SE USA.
grandvalleydave
New Member
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- Nov 10, 2019
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Geothermal cooling would be nice, but would offer a significant challenge for my RV installation 
I’m installing a mini-split AC system that will keep the ambient temps in my Caravan in a consistent temperature range year-round. This will be good for my dogs while I am riding, be pleasant during hot summer adventures, and will have the added benefit of keeping my batteries in a good range. Of course they will be providing the energy to run the mini-split, but no free lunch in the life...
Dave
I’m installing a mini-split AC system that will keep the ambient temps in my Caravan in a consistent temperature range year-round. This will be good for my dogs while I am riding, be pleasant during hot summer adventures, and will have the added benefit of keeping my batteries in a good range. Of course they will be providing the energy to run the mini-split, but no free lunch in the life...
Dave
Frank in Thailand
making mistakes so you don't have to...
Hi,
I live in Thailand, no RV, DIY straw bale home
Last year we had + 45 degrees in the shade...
This year I have airconditioning installed in the battery room!
(Big house and small farm use a lot more energy then RV, 16x 200Ah deep-cycle is an investment worth protecting)
(A straw bale house ain't happy about a 24/7 moist room... The fungus will thank you. Sadly no direct hydro cooling in my battery room)
Good thing that the heat is there when the sun shines, and my solar panels love the sun, make more energy then the airconditioner need.
I have had a lot of experience with evaporation cooling.
When I lived in The Netherlands, I had "small"mining farm (+200 high end GPU) (crypto currency)
That used 18kw 24/7. and most of it is heat!!
Computers don't like open air, mostly during rain they tend to have issues....
besides.. $100.000 electronics out in the open.......
I used a closed space and 5 times a 60x60x15 cm hydro pad.
One suction ventilator (2000m3/h) to make the room "vacuum".
The 5 hydro pads where in front of the the air inlet, air going inside the room was cooled and moist (98-100%).
2 benefits:
1: more cool. 2: moist air can contain more energy / heat.
Total power consumption to cool 18 kw, under 1 kw
(normal datacenter would use 4 á 5 kw to cool via air-conditioning)
Holland (The Netherlands) is wet, moist (sea) climate. we often have high moist..
During the 100% (rainy) days, temperature is lower.
My experience is that even with 80 and 90% moist in the air, the hydro cooling still works quite good!
When the temperature is 30 degrees and moist, it still gets it down to -27 degrees.
when the temperature rises (e.g.35 - 40 degree) , the moist in the outside air will reduce,the cooling pads can get the temperature still easy till 27, sometimes lower.
hydro cooling / swamp cooling works perfect, also in moist climates.
it ain't airconditioning!! you cant expect it to go down to 20 degrees when it is HOT outside.
27 degrees is realistic cooling temperature, but it feels BAD !!
(while it is more cool, it is also 100%, your body can't lose body heat via sweat, and thrust me... you will sweat a lot)
You also need to consider moist issues (fungus)
If you like to have it cool, and energy efficient, best to make a combination.
Pre-cool the "outside air" with hydro (pads or mist/small water drops) for the airconditioning.
The air conditioner uses +/- 30% less power and is a lot more efficient.
the air entering the outside unit of the airconditioner is
1: more cool. 2: moist air can contain more energy / heat.
It is an "old" technique, often used to boost life in to an old, no longer good cooling air conditioner to get you to the summer...
( I leaned about it from USA forum)
For me in Thailand, I use mist spray.
My normal water pressure is enough for the 0.1 and 0.2 mm nozzles.
much more easy to install then the hydro pads!!
It does also make the surrounding area of the outside unit little more moist, but that's OK.
(not all the water vapor is sucked into the airconditioner unit)
I hope this information about hydro cooling helps!
Peltier elements are fun to play with, they are good to cool your beer.
1 or 2 bottles.
The biggest problem with Peltier is their low efficiency / power consumption.
If 10 W is to be cooled, the Peltier element must have an power of 50 W.
it works easy, cool on 1 side, hot on the other. as long as you remove the heat and cold (ventilator) it can cool (or heat)
Cheap and simple!
Beer does not generate heat.... that's why you can keep it cool with Peltier
Batteries are different.
During charging they generate heat.
To cool 100 W,
For airconditioning you need 30 watt
For Peltier you need 500 Watt
I live in Thailand, no RV, DIY straw bale home
Last year we had + 45 degrees in the shade...
This year I have airconditioning installed in the battery room!
(Big house and small farm use a lot more energy then RV, 16x 200Ah deep-cycle is an investment worth protecting)
(A straw bale house ain't happy about a 24/7 moist room... The fungus will thank you. Sadly no direct hydro cooling in my battery room)
Good thing that the heat is there when the sun shines, and my solar panels love the sun, make more energy then the airconditioner need.
I have had a lot of experience with evaporation cooling.
When I lived in The Netherlands, I had "small"mining farm (+200 high end GPU) (crypto currency)
That used 18kw 24/7. and most of it is heat!!
Computers don't like open air, mostly during rain they tend to have issues....
besides.. $100.000 electronics out in the open.......
I used a closed space and 5 times a 60x60x15 cm hydro pad.
One suction ventilator (2000m3/h) to make the room "vacuum".
The 5 hydro pads where in front of the the air inlet, air going inside the room was cooled and moist (98-100%).
2 benefits:
1: more cool. 2: moist air can contain more energy / heat.
Total power consumption to cool 18 kw, under 1 kw
(normal datacenter would use 4 á 5 kw to cool via air-conditioning)
Holland (The Netherlands) is wet, moist (sea) climate. we often have high moist..
During the 100% (rainy) days, temperature is lower.
My experience is that even with 80 and 90% moist in the air, the hydro cooling still works quite good!
When the temperature is 30 degrees and moist, it still gets it down to -27 degrees.
when the temperature rises (e.g.35 - 40 degree) , the moist in the outside air will reduce,the cooling pads can get the temperature still easy till 27, sometimes lower.
hydro cooling / swamp cooling works perfect, also in moist climates.
it ain't airconditioning!! you cant expect it to go down to 20 degrees when it is HOT outside.
27 degrees is realistic cooling temperature, but it feels BAD !!
(while it is more cool, it is also 100%, your body can't lose body heat via sweat, and thrust me... you will sweat a lot)
You also need to consider moist issues (fungus)
If you like to have it cool, and energy efficient, best to make a combination.
Pre-cool the "outside air" with hydro (pads or mist/small water drops) for the airconditioning.
The air conditioner uses +/- 30% less power and is a lot more efficient.
the air entering the outside unit of the airconditioner is
1: more cool. 2: moist air can contain more energy / heat.
It is an "old" technique, often used to boost life in to an old, no longer good cooling air conditioner to get you to the summer...
( I leaned about it from USA forum)
For me in Thailand, I use mist spray.
My normal water pressure is enough for the 0.1 and 0.2 mm nozzles.
much more easy to install then the hydro pads!!
It does also make the surrounding area of the outside unit little more moist, but that's OK.
(not all the water vapor is sucked into the airconditioner unit)
I hope this information about hydro cooling helps!
Peltier elements are fun to play with, they are good to cool your beer.
1 or 2 bottles.
The biggest problem with Peltier is their low efficiency / power consumption.
If 10 W is to be cooled, the Peltier element must have an power of 50 W.
it works easy, cool on 1 side, hot on the other. as long as you remove the heat and cold (ventilator) it can cool (or heat)
Cheap and simple!
Beer does not generate heat.... that's why you can keep it cool with Peltier
Batteries are different.
During charging they generate heat.
To cool 100 W,
For airconditioning you need 30 watt
For Peltier you need 500 Watt
Brumfield
New Member
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2020
- Messages
- 2
Your opinions would be appreciated. Ambient temperature in my garage gets up to roughly 90 degrees Fahrenheit at midday during July and August. Is that an acceptable temperature range for operating 12 volt GEL deep cycle batteries under load? My batteries came with no documentation. Thanks, Brum
Frank in Thailand
making mistakes so you don't have to...
Hi Brum,
A quick search provided me with the information I already know.
The optimum operating temperature for the lead-acid battery is 25*C (77*F). Elevated temperature reduces longevity. As a guideline, every 8°C (15°F) rise in temperature cuts the battery life in half. A VRLA, which would last for 10 years at 25°C (77°F), would only be good for 5 years if operated at 33°C (92°F).
I probably would worry more about low temperature is your max is 90..
They don't like the cold either!!
Gel doesn't have (a lot) of gasses.
Especially if it's sealed battery.
If it is possible to place them inside your home, with more stable temperature more close to 20 degree Celsius/ 68 fahrenheit, it will prolong the lifespan.
Your personal usage can kill any battery fast.
Discharge below 10.5 discharge often below 20 % charge
Keep it discharged...
Overcharge at too high voltage..
That will make the lifespan so short you don't have to worry about temperature
A quick search provided me with the information I already know.
The optimum operating temperature for the lead-acid battery is 25*C (77*F). Elevated temperature reduces longevity. As a guideline, every 8°C (15°F) rise in temperature cuts the battery life in half. A VRLA, which would last for 10 years at 25°C (77°F), would only be good for 5 years if operated at 33°C (92°F).
I probably would worry more about low temperature is your max is 90..
They don't like the cold either!!
Gel doesn't have (a lot) of gasses.
Especially if it's sealed battery.
If it is possible to place them inside your home, with more stable temperature more close to 20 degree Celsius/ 68 fahrenheit, it will prolong the lifespan.
Your personal usage can kill any battery fast.
Discharge below 10.5 discharge often below 20 % charge
Keep it discharged...
Overcharge at too high voltage..
That will make the lifespan so short you don't have to worry about temperature
Brumfield
New Member
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2020
- Messages
- 2
Thank you very much for your useful answer. BrumHi Brum,
A quick search provided me with the information I already know.
The optimum operating temperature for the lead-acid battery is 25*C (77*F). Elevated temperature reduces longevity. As a guideline, every 8°C (15°F) rise in temperature cuts the battery life in half. A VRLA, which would last for 10 years at 25°C (77°F), would only be good for 5 years if operated at 33°C (92°F).
I probably would worry more about low temperature is your max is 90..
They don't like the cold either!!
Gel doesn't have (a lot) of gasses.
Especially if it's sealed battery.
If it is possible to place them inside your home, with more stable temperature more close to 20 degree Celsius/ 68 fahrenheit, it will prolong the lifespan.
Your personal usage can kill any battery fast.
Discharge below 10.5 discharge often below 20 % charge
Keep it discharged...
Overcharge at too high voltage..
That will make the lifespan so short you don't have to worry about temperature
Considering a 2-3k system for house in the part of the Bahamas that suffered from the 220mph+ winds of Hurricane Dorian last Sept..
7+ months later, most settlements are still without grid power, which has always been expensive and only marginally reliable.
Concerned about battery temp as the summer months are 90F with ~80% humidity.
Being the most expensive part of the solution, the economics change considerably (essentially double) if battery life is halved.
Geothermal is not a cooling option as the area saw a ~12' ocean surge with water going approx. 8' above ground level.
Fortunately this house sits on pilings and was not flooded.
The house is a vacation home, so often empty and the idea of cooling with water 'running' (in an empty house) is scary.
Fans for air circulation would seem to be the only viable option (others are WELCOME !) but humidity is high and I'm wondering how effective they will be.
Thanks in advance !
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