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House burned down

Many acoustic ceiling tiles as you would find in an office are mineral board. And I believe “fire proof.” Easy to cut, very light, very cheap, not conductive. Easy to put in, over, and around batteries etc.

I can’t seem to find a direct comparison to sheet rock (gypsum board). But I suspect they compare very favorably.
 
Many acoustic ceiling tiles as you would find in an office are mineral board. And I believe “fire proof.” Easy to cut, very light, very cheap, not conductive. Easy to put in, over, and around batteries etc.

I can’t seem to find a direct comparison to sheet rock (gypsum board). But I suspect they compare very favorably.
That's precisely what I lined the sides, bottom, and top of my battery shelf with (rock wool). Which was easiest to find in the USA at least at an acoustic tile store: https://www.acoustimac.com/acoustic...c-insulation/mineral-wool-acoustic-insulation
 
Must be 16s.

I guess I'll have to look onto Alibaba for some of these? I've avoided it thus far...
 
Must be 16s.

I guess I'll have to look onto Alibaba for some of these? I've avoided it thus far...
You can get all the ones I mentioned direct to consumer from their website (maybe not luyuan, idk)
 
You can get all the ones I mentioned direct to consumer from their website (maybe not luyuan, idk)
I just found on Luyuan's site. They're all for 280-304Ah cells. Hm.

Edit - maybe I just need to ask. Seems they can be customized.
 
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The breaker can fulfill the over current and disconnect functions. Class t and switch per battery being the alternative.
Breakers are handy for isolating components and general protection of your devices. They have a place and fulfill a need. The class-t fuse as close as possible to the battery, is the last resort oh $hit safety release to prevent electrons from being directed in undesirable directions.
 
That's precisely what I lined the sides, bottom, and top of my battery shelf with (rock wool). Which was easiest to find in the USA at least at an acoustic tile store: https://www.acoustimac.com/acoustic...c-insulation/mineral-wool-acoustic-insulation


You can order cases of rock wool insulation thick like the pink fiberglass from home depot. The rigid ceiling tile boards won't burn but will pass some amount of heat. The low density stuff (2 in thick)you can hold a MAPP gas torch on and it doesn't smoke, glow, or catch fire.

I tested it when I was building an enclosure for the 3d printer. I needed constant temperature that I could vent to the outside printing certain filaments.
 
How the fire re-ignited after being extinguished, I don't know.
A case to case short inside one of the batteries would blow that batteries fuse as the rest fed into it, and it would continue shifting afterwards potentially re igniting its own vent gases.
 
Some high-end home energy storage systems incorporate Aerosol Fire Extinguishing devices. These are fire suppression systems that release aerosolized particles containing potassium ions and other radicals to inhibit the combustion chain reaction.

Although I have never seen these sold to general consumers in Japan where I live, I found similar fire extinguishing devices on Aliexpress.

Based on the model number, the manufacturer is likely JiAnDun (及安盾).
According to the product page, the main ingredients appear to be potassium nitrate and strontium nitrate. I believe the heat from a fire causes these to burn rapidly inside the device, generating the aerosol.

The product allegedly complies with the Chinese national standard GB/T GA499.1-2010, and is widely sold on Chinese shopping sites like Taobao.

From my research, the company seems quite reputable, but its reliability is unknown. However, given the fire risk, it seems like an inexpensive investment, so I am considering purchasing one.
 
I think most here on the forum know I have been hammering on the use of Class T fuses since forever (and at times received push-back). I also talked to Victron (and other) reps at several occasions about using class T fuses (or at least similar, like BS88 etc), and did the same with BMS manufacturers when paralleling of batteries comes up. I'm glad to hear there are some signals appearing that vendors/etc. are finally addressing this.

Yeah, class T seems to become more common. With a single battery bank, you might be good with a mega fuse, since the wires will limit the max short circuit current, but with the bigger installs these days thats not sufficient.

Victron recently introduced a class-T Lynx.

 
I am skeptical of the fuse being the initial cause, based on the fact that this happened at night with very low currents.

My though is, it could have been a cell that internally shorted, caught on fire and the fuse blew after the fire had already started melting things, one thing falls on top of another, etc.

Everyone is running out, pointing fingers, and changing out their fuses...the thing I'd like to point out is that every devastating fire I've seen on this forum was using raw cells. Not a single one I can recall use pre-built batteries that were fully contained in metal boxes holding smaller quantities of cells within. I'd argue that the metal boxes are what slow down and often times smother out the fires - Seplos makes some and I think they just make sense if you insist on DIYing your batteries.
First off sympathies to the family, glad everyone got out okay!

As a noob to the DIY and still in the process of setting up my first system, I'm glad these EG4 indoor batteries have integrated fire suppression, and I'm using the metal conduit boxes all around. As well as one of the ionizing type smoke detectors next to the setup along with a backup class C fire extinguisher.

Knowing the way insurance companies are these days - I hope they don't put you through too much hell.
 
The house in Germany that blew up wasn't.
Yes, a faulty pre-made battery. Had pouch cells in 16S4P even though the product was supposed to be prismatic 16S.
 
I believe both reported fires share a suspicion of a lack of separator.

I'm taking all three conclusions:

1. Class T Fuses
2. Cells in metal boxes
3. 5 side FR4 separation

Yup, add me to the list.

I just got two of the Liyuan 280Ah 48V kits, great quality and not silly money.

I have 32 cells which will fit that are currently as a "naked" 2P16S arrangement (they do have separators). I'm going to order another pair of boxes for them. That would place all my cells in metal containment and then inside a steel and cement-board house.
 
I am still far from it, but i think i will go the battery box route like the battery gueen and basen ones. Metal enclosures, cell are upright etc...
 
I think he was on cement board on metal shelves in his final configuration?
The image of the fire in his first post does not show any cement board or metal shelf. Just the metal uprights. Not a complete picture and the fire does not seem to have reached the lowest part of the shelving but burned upwards. I realize that the OP is traumatized by his lost and does not wish to be criticized. I give him great credit for posting about it at all.

It would be great if independent investigation could be conducted into fires such as the last couple of large scale LiFePO4 fires reported on the Forum. Some lessons could than be taken from it.
 
Just in case that link doesn't take you to the right place, this one has them upright.
I put their 1.1MWh mini container on my Santa list

 
I sent a message to Amy from her website inquiring about the boxes, and to see if they can be made to work with 230Ah EVE cells and JBD contactor BMS.
 
I know for sure that eel and seplos has 230ah boxes, with non stacked orientation

Call me weird but I don't want a Seplos BMS. I keep seeing where they mess with it and v3 is not as good, or something. I dunno.
Part of me wants to get JK BMSes, another part just wants to retain the JBDs I have (with 300A contactors LOL overkill) just because I own them already.

Maybe all it would take to make it "work" with 230Ah is to just put a spacer block in the back of the case to account for thickness difference. I should check cell dimensions.

I'll take my discussion to the Luyuan battery box thread as to not junk up this one with my ramblings and musings.
 
This is my summary of the fire. The Cells are arranged in 16s x 6 with fuses between each bank. After the fuses the banks are then connected together with a copper busbar. In order for one of the fuses to blow, then there would need to be current flow of in excess of 200 amps. The fuses were not type T fuses, so once the fuse melted then it continued to arc causing a fire.

The root cause would have to be one of the Cells that became shorted. That would drop the voltage down so that the current would flow from the other 5 banks to the bank with the defective Cell.

There was an indication of issues with the Cells from Xuba from the leaking Cells. The leaking Cells were replaced, but there were possibly others that just needed to have more time before they went.

The Cell that became shorted would have had to be a sudden event. The system had been working fine for years, and was working fine the day of the event. It wasn't until the sun had gone down and the system was in discharge mode, that the event occurred.

The system was put together in a meticulous manner and a lot of thought on safety was evident in the displayed results.

The Cells were all on a metal shelf and monitored, and still his house is destroyed.

This is all speculation, of course.

I believe that how we treat our Cells is very important. The Cells should be treated gently and not abused by excessive charging or discharging, above or below the knee.

Regular Cell monitoring and balancing should be a daily regime.

My thoughts are that LFP technology is still one of the safest Cell technologies that we have. This is evident in the direction of EV manufacturing. It also makes me question some of the Cells that do not make it to EV quality. Are we risking our homes to save a few bucks?

My conclusion is that the only way to be entirely safe is to remove the hazard from your home.
 
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The Cells were all in a metal box and monitored, and still his house is destroyed.
Where was this indicated? As @Mattb4 pointed out in a few messages above the shelf the batteries were on only shows the metal cross beams and legs left which seems to indicate there was very little metal supporting and surrounding the batteries.. i.e. most of the shelf was flammable. Would like confirmation of that. Even if batteries did catch fire there seems like there should be way to one, prevent it from spreading to other batteries/shelves and two, to not catch something flammable on fire outside of the immediate battery storage area.
 
One other interesting part is it appears the system used solid intercell busbars. If a cell became extremely bloated and eventually popped the pressure release cover it may have put a lot of pressure on the terminals of other cells. I would think then that it would always be best practice to use flexible busbars that could help prevent putting excessive pressure on other cell terminals during a catastrophic cell failure event. Not saying this is directly related to this fire but it does make sense that this would provide extra safety insurance to use flexible busbars.
 
Where was this indicated? As @Mattb4 pointed out in a few messages above the shelf the batteries were on only shows the metal cross beams and legs left which seems to indicate there was very little metal supporting and surrounding the batteries.. i.e. most of the shelf was flammable. Would like confirmation of that. Even if batteries did catch fire there seems like there should be way to one, prevent it from spreading to other batteries/shelves and two, to not catch something flammable on fire outside of the immediate battery storage area.
My apologies it should read a metal shelf, not a metal box. I will edit it.
 
Where was this indicated? As @Mattb4 pointed out in a few messages above the shelf the batteries were on only shows the metal cross beams and legs left which seems to indicate there was very little metal supporting and surrounding the batteries.. i.e. most of the shelf was flammable. Would like confirmation of that. Even if batteries did catch fire there seems like there should be way to one, prevent it from spreading to other batteries/shelves and two, to not catch something flammable on fire outside of the immediate battery storage area.
The official report from the fire inspector was not an issue with the Cells catching fire but it was the fuse arcing that created the fire. If a Cell shorted then I am hoping that it does not catch on fire. Is there any evidence that LFP cells catch fire? I watched the video on one guy puncturing a Cell with a spear and the result was flames after he punctured it several times. But has a LFP cell ever caught on fire without being abused?

If we cannot trust the LFP Cells to not spontaneously combust then all of us are in serious trouble.
 
The official report from the fire inspector was not an issue with the Cells catching fire but it was the fuse arcing that created the fire. If a Cell shorted then I am hoping that it does not catch on fire. Is there any evidence that LFP cells catch fire? I watched the video on one guy puncturing a Cell with a spear and the result was flames after he punctured it several times. But has a LFP cell ever caught on fire without being abused?

If we cannot trust the LFP Cells to not spontaneously combust then all of us are in serious trouble.
Right but the root cause that made the fuse blow in the first place is what everyone is interested in. To sustain an arc there needs to be high current flow, not just normal use. Where was all the current going and why?
 
The official report from the fire inspector was not an issue with the Cells catching fire but it was the fuse arcing that created the fire. If a Cell shorted then I am hoping that it does not catch on fire. Is there any evidence that LFP cells catch fire? I watched the video on one guy puncturing a Cell with a spear and the result was flames after he punctured it several times. But has a LFP cell ever caught on fire without being abused?

If we cannot trust the LFP Cells to not spontaneously combust then all of us are in serious trouble.
I have heavily abused my CALB plastic cased lfp cells, charging them when frozen, discharging them well below cut-off, charging them to 4v on occasion. They puffed up and failed, but they did not catch fire on me.
 
Right but the root cause that made the fuse blow in the first place is what everyone is interested in. To sustain an arc there needs to be high current flow, not just normal use. Where was all the current going and why?
Into a failed pack….. parallel packs always need inter-pack fusing, with stuff that won’t catch fire. We were discusssing this 15+yrs ago on the outback power forum when I was messing with wet Nicad…
 
I guess for my own ability to be able to sleep and not be concerned about the LFP Cells catching the house on fire, I would hope to believe that with OP's setup then if he would have used the class T fuses, then the fuse would have opened and that would be the end of the story.
 
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