Shoot....Yeah, I noticed that too. I'm really interested to hear more detail about what he's got and what he's trying to do. Pics would be cool too because I've got soooo many questions about what he's trying to accomplish.
Really.... have I got a couple of code questions for you!
How did you manage this? 8 AWG AC input/output for 3kw growatt inverter.
- Thread starter edm
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Rednecktek
Solar Wizard
OK, so I'm trying to get my camp on the grid and I'm running into a couple grounding issues. I learned that due to the terrain I can't do the standard 8' rods so I've made up some oversized grounding plates (18x24x5/16") that I'm going to stick in there. I dug through a NEC book but I'm confused as it seems to contradict itself.
In one section it says I need 1 conductor going from Plate-A to Plate-B to Well Casing to panel.
In the next section it says I need an individual conductor from each plate and the well casing.
Am I needing 1 long conductor or 3 shorter conductors? Can I just daisy-chain the clamps or do I need a separate clamp for each junction (aka 1 clamp on plate-a, 2 clamps on plate-b, 2 clamps on well casing)?
Do they need to be in conduit like every other bloody wire in the system or just buried in the gravel? What about where it comes out of the dirt and into the panel? There's gonna be a couple feet of bare copper there.
Both sections say they have to be below grade, is there a minimum depth?
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The NEC does contradict itself, you are using a reference to a well ground, not quite....
On multiple ground rods, connect them together with a buried 6 bare copper ga wire, no shielding or conduit one piece from end to end....no splices,
in some jurisdictions alternate grounds are acceptable.
Many modern homes use the Ufer ground (named for the inventor) in which the electrical system is tied to the rebar in the concrete foundation, there is a minimum amount of rebar which is acceptable to bond to, here in California with a 200 amp 240 volt service its 50 feet bonded rebar, buried in the concrete foundation.
One inspector questioned my use of a 480 foot 24 inch diameter well casing as a ground rod.....lol, he got overruled on that one
In one house in a very rocky hillside I was required to put in 6 ground rods in an array with all bonded together with a single piece of wire from main panel through all the ground rods with only the first ground rod exposed to the surface and all the auxiliary ground rods buried 18” below grade, and connecting wire below grade. I pretzeled several ground rods getting the required 6 in before he would allow me to fill the trenches.
Modern code calls for a ground rod impedance meter, but I do not know of an electrician that has one. On several remodels I have had to use more than one ground rod, this is always based on the inspector’s knowledge of the specific area.
The code is only the code, its up to your local inspector to intrepid the NEC,
right in the NEC it does say “ When in dought refer to the AHJ......The authority having jurisdiction
By “Camp” I am assuming no main building, power to a power pole, then distributed to temporary structures from there
On multiple ground rods, connect them together with a buried 6 bare copper ga wire, no shielding or conduit one piece from end to end....no splices,
in some jurisdictions alternate grounds are acceptable.
Many modern homes use the Ufer ground (named for the inventor) in which the electrical system is tied to the rebar in the concrete foundation, there is a minimum amount of rebar which is acceptable to bond to, here in California with a 200 amp 240 volt service its 50 feet bonded rebar, buried in the concrete foundation.
One inspector questioned my use of a 480 foot 24 inch diameter well casing as a ground rod.....lol, he got overruled on that one
In one house in a very rocky hillside I was required to put in 6 ground rods in an array with all bonded together with a single piece of wire from main panel through all the ground rods with only the first ground rod exposed to the surface and all the auxiliary ground rods buried 18” below grade, and connecting wire below grade. I pretzeled several ground rods getting the required 6 in before he would allow me to fill the trenches.
Modern code calls for a ground rod impedance meter, but I do not know of an electrician that has one. On several remodels I have had to use more than one ground rod, this is always based on the inspector’s knowledge of the specific area.
The code is only the code, its up to your local inspector to intrepid the NEC,
right in the NEC it does say “ When in dought refer to the AHJ......The authority having jurisdiction
By “Camp” I am assuming no main building, power to a power pole, then distributed to temporary structures from there
Rednecktek
Solar Wizard
OK, that helps. So do I need to be 18" down to be "below grade" or can it be just a couple inches deep? The plates have to be 30" which I understand is the depth between grade and the bottom of the plate. If it has to be 30" from grade to the top of the plate I'm fucked. I'm probably going to do some serious damage to the ditch witch as it is to get 30" deep in the first place. Rock isn't very forgiving.
The camp has the main power coming from the utility underground, up to the meter and into the pump house. From there I have a 4AWG aluminum L1/L2/N/G line running the 315ft to the actual cabin in conduit. The line to the cabin has been rated down to 60a (the inspector said I could swing 75, but I had a 60 in there and I'm OK with that) to feed a 220v panel in the cabin (started life as a 1972 travel trailer) with 3 20a breakers on it.
What ground is located at the utility supplied underground feed? I assume that portion is already installed.
The conduit bringing the power ”should be buried 24 inches underground”
There should be a subpanel at the trailer so you have a breaker there for quick access. There would be a 8’ ground rod at that subpanel.
I use a rotohammer with a ground rod driver bit to pound ground rods, Im using a Bosch 2” rotohammer for this task.
Home Depot does rent tools such as this, generally I can drive ground rods with this with no difficulty, but I have “pretzeled” more than one ground rod doing this.
The conduit bringing the power ”should be buried 24 inches underground”
There should be a subpanel at the trailer so you have a breaker there for quick access. There would be a 8’ ground rod at that subpanel.
I use a rotohammer with a ground rod driver bit to pound ground rods, Im using a Bosch 2” rotohammer for this task.
Home Depot does rent tools such as this, generally I can drive ground rods with this with no difficulty, but I have “pretzeled” more than one ground rod doing this.
Rednecktek
Solar Wizard
No idea. The PUD installed the transformer but they won't connect it to the shed until the electrical is signed off. My meter box only has the wires feeding my panel inside at the moment.
It's about 3-1/2 to 4ft deep all the way there. That was a bitch! It's called an Excavator, NOT a Fillavator.
Yup, there's a interlocked disconnect so I can't back feed when I'm running the generator. The inspector didn't care about the grounding rod at the camp, said it had to be tied directly to my source panel in the pump house. The previous owners did the horizontal rod back there, but only 1 of them. Good thing I ran a pull string through the conduit when I buried it! Pulling that 315ft length of copper SUCKED!!!
The area is hard volcanic rock about 4ft down from the surface. I tried the rotohammer and pretzeled too many rods, hence going to the plates.
Where is the utility power feed in comparison to the well? Having the well makes it more clear as to why they brought power out there, In over regulated to death California it is nearly impossible to get a power feed to a travel trailer, but the well would be the primary power user, so that makes it acceptable. Do you plan on using the standby power to pump the well, or just the utility power?
Rednecktek
Solar Wizard
About 12ft away on the side of the pump house. The turn into the pump house is about 3ft from the well casing on the inside. I took this photo right before I installed the vertical conduit going 12" below grade from the bottom of the meter box.
Yup, there's no way I'd want to jump through the hoops of getting the cabin inspected. I've spent a LOT of time in there un-fucking the wiring enough to feel safe, but there's no physical way to bring it to code without completely replacing the whole structure.
I currently have a 6500w generator that provides the 220v for the well pump and a little 2000w that just provides 110v to the cabin electrical system. I did try running the cabin off the big generator as a test to make sure I had everything wired correctly and all the interlocks worked as expected, but that was a 30 minute affair and I haven't done it since. In a perfect world the utility can run the well pump and the cabin, but I have installed multiple interlocked disconnects in the system so I can't ever back feed the lines from either the well generator or the cabin generator. I have the equipment and plans to set up an off-grid solar array at the cabin so I don't have to listen to the generator all night. It won't run the well pump but it's about 60% over specced for my needs at the cabin itself. Power outages are a thing out there.
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12VoltInstalls
life passes by too quickly to not live in freedom
Ok. I totally missed this paragraph:
I was assuming he bought solid copper and I thought I was trying to solve this issue with a 30A plug not an RV issue:
My RV has the ‘correct ’ 30A cord and end. It’s plugged into a 1200W inverter with a 15A adapter 100% of the time.
However, I did add that style twistlok to my camper: it is isolated and only there to feed a battery charger that will be hardwired in a box and no means to connected to anything else.
It also fits my daughter’s generator.
A 30A plug on a 20A cord supporting a dedicated 1.2A/120VAC load I’m not that concerned about for myself, however. Between the socket and the added junction box is 10ga SOO. I’m not worried about that, either.
If it’s illegal I guess others shouldn’t use it.
I am always amazed as to how people wire shit up, scary.....
I think that you have it all covered...
If there was ever an installation where you should ask your inspector about how he wants it done,this is one, very unusual, but I think you have it covered, unless he is a newbie he should know the local area much better than the writers of the NEC in New York Shitty.
I once went out on a job to repair an in use system, I got there and there was this very old Stab-lok panel very overloaded and the homeowner wanted me to replace 30 amp breakers with 50 amp breakers in a 1940’s installation with knob and tube wiring good for 15 amps maybe. He had 6 portable electric heaters in sight. The wiring was the worst I had seen in quite some time. I told the guy that I was very thirsty, and asked do you have any water? He rushed away to get the water and I real quick snapped many photo’s of what was there and buttoned up the panel. Guy came back with the water and I told him an emergency came up and I had to go. I sent him a proposal to replace everything with new code approved wiring, box and all for $33,000 (I did not want to touch that rats nest) I knew he would not approve that! He ended up putting in the breakers and burned down the house. Sued me for the loss. Claimed that I had put in those breakers and told him that it would be safe. The photos were presented in court along with my service call (unpaid) and proposal to upgrade. The judge saw the photos and documentation and tossed the case. Unfortunately people died, he was convicted of negligent death, his wife disappeared to Guatamala with the surviving children.
And do you wonder why smart electricians carry starter fluid? Gets your fingerprints off that installation......
Have a ipad just for photo documentation as to what I did.....saved my neck
Too scary for me, now I wont even look at some jobs.......A quick drive by sometimes will tell me everything I need to know...
Pic is a unfinished job...(completely different job)......white sticker on panel is building inspector signoff on completed work......All my local inspectors know that i will not cut corners, cant afford to, shit happens..
David
I think that you have it all covered...
If there was ever an installation where you should ask your inspector about how he wants it done,this is one, very unusual, but I think you have it covered, unless he is a newbie he should know the local area much better than the writers of the NEC in New York Shitty.
I once went out on a job to repair an in use system, I got there and there was this very old Stab-lok panel very overloaded and the homeowner wanted me to replace 30 amp breakers with 50 amp breakers in a 1940’s installation with knob and tube wiring good for 15 amps maybe. He had 6 portable electric heaters in sight. The wiring was the worst I had seen in quite some time. I told the guy that I was very thirsty, and asked do you have any water? He rushed away to get the water and I real quick snapped many photo’s of what was there and buttoned up the panel. Guy came back with the water and I told him an emergency came up and I had to go. I sent him a proposal to replace everything with new code approved wiring, box and all for $33,000 (I did not want to touch that rats nest) I knew he would not approve that! He ended up putting in the breakers and burned down the house. Sued me for the loss. Claimed that I had put in those breakers and told him that it would be safe. The photos were presented in court along with my service call (unpaid) and proposal to upgrade. The judge saw the photos and documentation and tossed the case. Unfortunately people died, he was convicted of negligent death, his wife disappeared to Guatamala with the surviving children.
And do you wonder why smart electricians carry starter fluid? Gets your fingerprints off that installation......
Have a ipad just for photo documentation as to what I did.....saved my neck
Too scary for me, now I wont even look at some jobs.......A quick drive by sometimes will tell me everything I need to know...
Pic is a unfinished job...(completely different job)......white sticker on panel is building inspector signoff on completed work......All my local inspectors know that i will not cut corners, cant afford to, shit happens..
David
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Doing more than the code requires at a minimum is not a violation of the code, The NEC spells out the minimum, not what you personally feel good about, I do not see any violation of the spirit of the code in what you have described. As an inspector I would approve it., but alas I’m not a building inspector, just well respected by all my local inspectors as the photo above proves. This is not my only approval before I am finished, several inspectors have asked me to look at stuff for them....
sunshine_eggo
Happy Breffast!
Yes. The Growatts will only do bulk/absorption/float with solar charging.
IMHO, for generator charging on a Growatt,
Setting 13 is set to absorption voltage of battery
Setting 12 is set to as high as you can but no more than a little bit under setting 13.
That way, it will at least take the battery to absorption any time you fire up the generator. You won't get fully charged, but it's better than a bag full of assholes.
I have a 15 female plug.
I did not buy the 20amp plug because the terminal had one vertical and one horizontal.
I made a mistake in my recollection.
I am overwhelmed in public & more so in small hardware stores.
I hope this correction helps you sleep better.
I remembered that I have some parts from a tanning bed I found in a dumpster.Thanks for everyone's fast responses!
I did mean to imply Wall outlet input, & ac output to use as an improvised power supply for now. (Just in case)
(In future at my rural property off grid the travel trailer will have my solar panels and already has a breaker box)
I will find 12 awg cord to boot strap this.
The cord I removed from it is beefy.
I got my (15 amp) plugs all wired up.
I've noticed there are some responses wanting pictures.
I'm unsure why, or what good they will do?
Not a lot to add. My bms has my cell #13 with a red bar, so..
I tested it and it's voltage is 3.2 so.. more chaos and confusion as Sir Topem Hat would say.
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Rednecktek
Solar Wizard
Woot! The Growatt is happy for now? Yay for spare parts bins!
I think a lot of us were envisioning things that were totally different in our heads and trying to guess and make recommendations from there. Seeing what you've actually got set up gets rid of a lot of that confusion.
Plus, we like to see what others have come up with for their systems and appreciate the fun of playing with solar.
Some inspectors will have a problem with what I see there
#1 and most important.....batteries in cardboard box....fix that, housings for electrical equiptment must be flame proof,
Tool box, steel container, etc.
here in California that inverter needs to be hardwired into the main panel but this does not appear to be a “full time power system”
Rednecktek
Solar Wizard
Lol! Probably not expecting to have that signed off, although if a cardboard box has the UL stamp on it that means it's good to go, right?
Can you give me the numbers of the ones that wouldn't? That might make getting my place done a lot easier.
There are many ways to interpuit the code, one chapter states that “Everything beyond the outlet is not under the authority of the building code”
BINGO......My whole solar system is mounted on a large old motorhome and “Plugs-in” to the house. The motorhome has State non-op status, no legal plates to move it down the road, so is registered with the state and the “state trumps county” and the building inspector is powerless to do anything about it. The motorhome is factory supplied with a 6000 watt Onan generator so is “certified by the state housing authority” again trumping the county building agency.
I did have a visit by the state fire agency but they saw what I have and approved it....Midnight has full “Arc fault and Ground fault built in” so does meet all the codes in that respect. Most offshore equipment does not have either “Arc fault or Ground fault built in so this must be added to be “completely legal”
BINGO......My whole solar system is mounted on a large old motorhome and “Plugs-in” to the house. The motorhome has State non-op status, no legal plates to move it down the road, so is registered with the state and the “state trumps county” and the building inspector is powerless to do anything about it. The motorhome is factory supplied with a 6000 watt Onan generator so is “certified by the state housing authority” again trumping the county building agency.
I did have a visit by the state fire agency but they saw what I have and approved it....Midnight has full “Arc fault and Ground fault built in” so does meet all the codes in that respect. Most offshore equipment does not have either “Arc fault or Ground fault built in so this must be added to be “completely legal”
Lol! Probably not expecting to have that signed off, although if a cardboard box has the UL stamp on it that means it's good to go, right?
I hear that there are UL approval stamps on Alibaba
