How not to set on fire old EBL and LiFePo4 battery ?

[fiox89]

Hi all. I'm quite new in this field, and I am looking to understand how to correctly mount a 100ah lithium battery (integrated BMS), on an old EBL 263-3 control unit on my VAN (120A alternator)

I have identified, hypothetically, the B2B Votronic 12-12 30A. However, the proposed schemes are not very clear to me. I have a battery cut-off relay inside the control unit EBL 263-3, which is the best connection configuration?

I am trying to seek help from companies around my area, but lithium batteries are still not widespread here, and it is really difficult to find people willing to help me. Any help will be appreciated !

 

[sunshine_eggo]

Both devices appear to charge at 14.4V and float at 13.8V. Those parameters are compatible with the charge parameters published by Battleborn.

Personally, I prefer 13.6V float as that keeps the battery at slightly under 100%. if you're plugged into shore power all the time, I would be hesitant, but if the system will cycle regularly, should be fine.

 

[fiox89]

Both devices appear to charge at 14.4V and float at 13.8V. Those parameters are compatible with the charge parameters published by Battleborn.

Personally, I prefer 13.6V float as that keeps the battery at slightly under 100%. if you're plugged into shore power all the time, I would be hesitant, but if the system will cycle regularly, should be fine.

Thanks for your input. My biggest concern is how to connect the B2B to the lithium battery, and therefore to the EBL.
Votronic provides schematics, could the one on page 4 be right for me? Attaching here a simplified version of the scheme, on how I intended it for my case.

 

[mikefitz]

Hi, since you have a EBL 263, I guess you are based in Europe with a European build motor home.

First Question.

Is your existing system with lead acid batteries performing well with engine and 230 ac charging working as expected?
The AC charger in the EBL is not very robust, the extra work it will have to perform with lithium batteries may lead to failure. If you have any doubt with the performance of the AC charger it may be safer to install a dedicated AC charger for the new battery.

could the one on page 4 be right for me?

Using the connection setup shown on page 4 is in effect replacing the existing lead battery with the lithium battery and using the combining relay for alternator charging to connect the DC to DC output to the battery. With AC charging the internal EBL charger will charge the battery. Note the cable sizes and fuses suggested by Votronic.
If the EBL is in good condition this this connection setup should work.

It is important that lithium batteries are nor charges below 0C, ideally 5C. The EBL charger and the Votronics B 2 B do not have low temperature disable, thus you battery BMS must provide low temperature protection. ( or additional components can be used ).

The Votronics 12 12 30 charge voltages are 14.4 charge and 13.8 float. Not super ideal in my view for lithium but since its not a continuous charge, ( you are not driving 24/7), the values are acceptable.

The EBL AC charger is also 14.4/13.8 ( use the lead acid setting on the EBL not GEL, the GEL absorption time if far too long for lithium).
Although acceptable and will charge the battery, the high float of 13.8 if applied for long periods, ( example the motorhome continually connected to an AC supply when not in use), may reduce the service life of the battery.

Other options to bypass the EBL and connect direct to the service battery and to add a dedicated AC charger could be considered.

Mike

 

[fiox89]

Hi, since you have a EBL 263, I guess you are based in Europe with a European build motor home.

First Question.

Is your existing system with lead acid batteries performing well with engine and 230 ac charging working as expected?
The AC charger in the EBL is not very robust, the extra work it will have to perform with lithium batteries may lead to failure. If you have any doubt with the performance of the AC charger it may be safer to install a dedicated AC charger for the new battery.



Using the connection setup shown on page 4 is in effect replacing the existing lead battery with the lithium battery and using the combining relay for alternator charging to connect the DC to DC output to the battery. With AC charging the internal EBL charger will charge the battery. Note the cable sizes and fuses suggested by Votronic.
If the EBL is in good condition this this connection setup should work.

It is important that lithium batteries are nor charges below 0C, ideally 5C. The EBL charger and the Votronics B 2 B do not have low temperature disable, thus you battery BMS must provide low temperature protection. ( or additional components can be used ).

The Votronics 12 12 30 charge voltages are 14.4 charge and 13.8 float. Not super ideal in my view for lithium but since its not a continuous charge, ( you are not driving 24/7), the values are acceptable.

The EBL AC charger is also 14.4/13.8 ( use the lead acid setting on the EBL not GEL, the GEL absorption time if far too long for lithium).
Although acceptable and will charge the battery, the high float of 13.8 if applied for long periods, ( example the motorhome continually connected to an AC supply when not in use), may reduce the service life of the battery.

Other options to bypass the EBL and connect direct to the service battery and to add a dedicated AC charger could be considered.

Mike

Hello Mike, your comments are extremely helpful to me, thanks. Your guess is correct, currently in Italy with an 19 years old Adria Ducato 230.
I have had the vehicle for a few months, and I cannot say how reliable the AC charger is, but I have not noticed any problems yet. Let's assume that I want to rely on an external AC charger, I think this requires a modification to the EBL? I chew on electronics and circuit modification, but this may be beyond my knowledge if too complex

Regarding the temperature, I read in the Votronic manual "LiFePO4 Batteries: Battery protection in case of high temperatures and particularly in case of low temperatures below 0 °C." this make me assume that charging would be disabled below 0 °C, even without BMS intervention?

p.s. I am evaluating any product suitable for the situation, the Votronic is only one option. In the future I will also install solar panels, and AC charging will only be occasional

 

[mikefitz]

this make me assume that charging would be disabled below 0 °C, even without BMS intervention?

not quite ,this is from the Votronic instructions,
In case of temperatures below 0 °C, the charging current will be reduced considerably for battery protection.
So charging is reduced but not completely prevented. The battery may be damaged if it does not have a BMS that prevents low temperature charging.
The AC charger in the EBL has no low temperature disable.
These charger issues should not matter if the battery you are installing has low temperature disable via the BMS.

I am in the UK and reports on motorhome forums indicate the AC charger in the EBL may fail when working at maximum output. It may be you need an alternative AC charger. To connect an external charger the most simple method is to disconnect the AC 230v input from the EBL and connect the new battery charger to the service battery with a suitable fuse. The EBL charging of the engine battery is now not available. One solution is a dual output AC charger,

https://www.victronenergy.com/chargers/blue-smart-ip22-charger.

To connect a solar controller, a connection direct to the service battery would be the easiest method.

If you are considering a B2B, Solar charger and AC charger, then this unit may be useful,

VOTRONIC - VBCS 30/20/250

Innovative Elektronik für den mobilen Einsatz

www.votronic.de

Mike

 

[bryn]

The quality is a little hit and miss on the Votronic and customer support isn't the greatest.

I had to send my panel and triple charger back to germany after first install as there was an issue with solar input display (Jupiter panel issue), and i upgraded to a 60/40/430 charger to replace my 30/20/250 as i needed more charging capacity as i switched to lithium.

I've had 2 of the 60/40/430 blow up from new when connected to 230v, i haven't fitted the replacement triple charger yet as i'm waiting on a 200ah Jupiter panel/shunt to replace the 100ah verison and i'm currently using the 30/20/250 until then

But i haven't had any issues with the 30/20/250 unit itself and will keep it as a spare, as waiting 4-5 months for warranty replacements isn't great.

But It has to be faster in Europe or the UK than here in Australia

Also the Solar VOC requirement on these triple units, limit your large panel solar options, i can't recall but it might be around 32? i know the new model is slighty revised to allow more, but its under 40 VOC

just a few photos i took while i built the camper

 

[fiox89]

Thanks for the input. There are other B2B that have the same installation as the Votronic but more reliable? and perhaps with a voltage more suitable for lithium. I would have to install it in an enclosed small space, otherwise I would have used the victron orion tr smart 12-12-30

 

[mikefitz]

Victron equipment is very reliable. Whatever make of B2B you fit it needs ventilation. The dc to dc conversion is not 100% efficient and the heat needs to be dissipated. I only fit and recommend Victron equipment, there are too many issues with alternatives.
If installed in a confined space fit a 12v computer fan powered from Ignition live and make ventilation modifications to the woodwork.

Mike

 

[fiox89]

Victron equipment is very reliable. Whatever make of B2B you fit it needs ventilation. The dc to dc conversion is not 100% efficient and the heat needs to be dissipated. I only fit and recommend Victron equipment, there are too many issues with alternatives.
If installed in a confined space fit a 12v computer fan powered from Ignition live and make ventilation modifications to the woodwork.

Mike

Thanks Mike, then I will consider the option of mounting the victron externally. On the bottom of the compartment I have 2 ventilation holes, but I suspect that may not be enough especially in the case of a passive heatsink.

In the past I had heard recommended the non-isolated 12-12-30 version, I still find it for sale, but on the victron site it no longer exists. Using the isolated version doesn't seem like the best choice to me, am I wrong?

 

[bryn]

Victron equipment is very reliable. Whatever make of B2B you fit it needs ventilation. The dc to dc conversion is not 100% efficient and the heat needs to be dissipated. I only fit and recommend Victron equipment, there are too many issues with alternatives.
If installed in a confined space fit a 12v computer fan powered from Ignition live and make ventilation modifications to the woodwork.

Mike

I have mine enclosed within cabinets, but I have multiple magnetic 12v fans installed with thermostat controllers, as well as lots of ventilation grills, I have the same setup for my fridge.

Heat needs to be addressed, electronics don’t last long if heat soaked

I’ll be looking at victron for my next build, better support, More flexibility with their options and 48v option.

 

[fiox89]

I have reviewed the scheme, it would be nice to have a double check before starting to work. Everything is correct? Did I miss something?

 

[ncowan]

My 2 x 120Ah low profile LiFePo4 aa 1.5V batteries from KS Energy have arrived . Both were at about 80% charged so I am charging them to full now as per the instructions. Downloading the app and connecting via BT was easy. The Votronic BTB should be arriving this afternoon from RoadPro and all the other bits to do the job should be here by the end of the week at the latest, I hope. The only one I am keeping my fingers crossed for is the Votronic 350W MPPT solar charger which is coming from Germany (couldn't find any in the UK). It has been purchased through the UK Amazon site so if they don't deliver I can easily get my money back. In that case, I will wire up my existing controller until I can find the one I want.

I have spent some time thinking about how to install it all but I need some advice. I am going through the EBL to connect both to make it easier. I do not want to disconnect the cab battery unless I have to. So the first question is can I just remove the 50A fuse on the cab battery or are there more connections? I will also remove the 50A fuse at the habitation battery as well as the fuses for charging by mains and solar on the EBL. So the second question is does that mean I can keep the EHU plugged in while I am doing the job?

At the moment I am hoping to do it in the following order.

1. Remove existing batteries I need them out of the way to make it easier to fit and wire up the BSB and solar controller.
2. Fit the B2B and wire it up to the EBL and shunt terminal.
3. Fit the solar controller and connect it to EBL but I will not wire in the panels at this stage.
4. Fit the new batteries and change the settings on my Victron BMV 700.
5. Wire the panels into the solar controller
6. Replace all the fuses I removed and check everything is working.

So the third question is is that OK or should I do it in a different order?

Just to explain that I am OK with the basic principles of electrickery but I cannot understand those spider webs that electricians call wiring diagrams.

I am sure that I will come across some more questions as I get on with it, so I will add them to this thread. Many thanks in advance to anybody who is willing to offer me any advice.