How to achieve efficient carbon neutral wood heating

[upnorthandpersonal]

Let's agree to disagree so we don't derail the thread.

 

[PVGeezer]

If you have a normal stove setup, you are sending a stream of gas out your chimney that is ~500*. For an RMH that it is ~125*. The difference in temperature is heat kept inside the living envelope with the RMH and results in significant efficiency gains. You can confuse yourself with as many formulas and handbooks as you want, but that doesn't change the simple facts of physics in real world applications.

I'm not at all confused. I know all these formulas by heart. Second nature to me. I'm a physics nerd, what can I say ,

Paul Wheaton sees many of the fringe factors involved in a rosy light and many around him think he uses them to exaggerate too much in his efforts to promote uptake of environmentally friendly technologies. But when it comes down to it, whether we are talking about a 75% or 90% improvement (or even a 50% one), Paul has a firm grasp of the core factors and the rest is basically hair splitting.

A 90% improvement is not hair splitting. That's a whole order of magnitude difference.

The numbers in that chart were laid out and discussed over a period of months in the discussion forums at permies.com. If you truly want to address marketing problems and help expand understanding of the issue, you could post in a relevant thread there. Don't look at me as an ambassador- they are too fucking polite there.

Not interested as I don't plan to adopt this particular technology for reasons not related to its performance.

Just be aware that if you think your Mbtus through electrical resistance establishes some sort of 'pure' base line, the numbers in the chart for electrical appliances include consideration of pollution at the source of power generation and/or solar panel manufacture, line transfer losses, etc. based upon research into average power generation figures around Montana.

Certainly electric resistance heating establishes a pure baseline. Pure because it's easy to measure, nothing to do with the source of the electricity. Thermal energy is thermal energy. Molecules become more energetic and move around more when they're hotter. Theyre not very smart and don't know anything about politics or pollution or whatever. So it doesn't matter to them what made them more energetic.

So if the permies guys are throwing a bunch of subjective and arbitrary criteria related to the origin of the energy into their thermal performance numbers without telling the reader what those are that makes them even more useless than if they just straight out made the numbers up.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a climate change denier. I'm 100% in favor of reducing as much GHG emission as possible from humanity's waste stream. Worked in PV since 1978 for that very purpose, before pretty much anyone was even thinking about GHG and climate change. But I also know how hard it is to get that done, and putting out clearly false charts like that is not going to help.

 

[455dan]

If you have a normal stove setup, you are sending a stream of gas out your chimney that is ~500*. For an RMH that it is ~125*. The difference in temperature is heat kept inside the living envelope with the RMH and results in significant efficiency gains. You can confuse yourself with as many formulas and handbooks as you want, but that doesn't change the simple facts of physics in real world applications.

Paul Wheaton sees many of the fringe factors involved in a rosy light and many around him think he uses them to exaggerate too much in his efforts to promote uptake of environmentally friendly technologies. But when it comes down to it, whether we are talking about a 75% or 90% improvement (or even a 50% one), Paul has a firm grasp of the core factors and the rest is basically hair splitting.

The numbers in that chart were laid out and discussed over a period of months in the discussion forums at permies.com. If you truly want to address marketing problems and help expand understanding of the issue, you could post in a relevant thread there. Don't look at me as an ambassador- they are too fucking polite there.

Just be aware that if you think your Mbtus through electrical resistance establishes some sort of 'pure' base line, the numbers in the chart for electrical appliances include consideration of pollution at the source of power generation and/or solar panel manufacture, line transfer losses, etc. based upon research into average power generation figures around Montana.

That is thing about catalytics they burn the wood gas

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

That is thing about catalytics they burn the wood gas

Same with gasifiers, since we're sharing pretty pictures:

 

[PVGeezer]

Let's agree to disagree so we don't derail the thread.

Thank you. Note that the objective of this thread is to share methods for achieving carbon neutral or near to carbon neutral wood burning. Anyone with ideas about how to achieve that is welcome to participate, whether you agree that that is a worthy objective or not.

What id like to avoid if possible is the thread degenerating into a debate about climate change itself. Let's just set that aside if we can, no one is going to get their mind changed anyway, most folks opinions on this topic are set in stone.

Those who feel as I do that CO2 reduction is a worthwhile objective have built in motivation. Those who don't are still welcome to contribute and might be motivated because theyre preppers, or to save energy or reduce costs, or simply for the fun of sharing knowledge.

 

[455dan]

Same with gasifiers, since we're sharing pretty pictures:

View attachment 284102

COOL! Is that in the firebox? or a secondary Burn chamber?

 

[SparkyJJO]

COOL!

No, that's HOT!

Had to

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

COOL! Is that in the firebox? or a secondary Burn chamber?

Secondary chamber, where the 'jet' of gas is burned. There is almost no fire in the primary burn chamber, just enough to generate the gasses that are then pulled down and combusted. Maybe this diagram explains it better:



My picture would be here ^ in the lower chamber. Burn efficiency typically over 90%.

 

[pollenface]

That’s what will cause spalling!

Oh it definitely does, I'm only using 44 gallon drums and replace them every few years

 

[PVGeezer]

Secondary chamber, where the 'jet' of gas is burned. There is almost no fire in the primary burn chamber, just enough to generate the gasses that are then pulled down and combusted. Maybe this diagram explains it better:

View attachment 284106

My picture would be here ^ in the lower chamber. Burn efficiency typically over 90%.

Very nice.

Never seen a furnace ike that in North America. Is something like that available in the US? EPA certified?

Looks like the hopper on that furnace might manage the little branch logger chunks and other smaller woody material . Could be a cost effective way to manage and utilize scrap wood?

 

[green mountain boys]

Very nice.

Never seen a furnace ike that in North America. Is something like that available in the US? EPA certified?

Looks like the hopper on that furnace might manage the little branch logger chunks and other smaller woody material . Could be a cost effective way to manage and utilize scrap wood?

Yes, Central Boiler makes outdoor wood boilers with the same design. I have one of the "original" designs from 1995 and it is still going strong. Mine does not burn the exhaust gases it is just a firebox surrounded by a 400 gallon water jacket. The old design is much more simple and requires less maintenance. The new design reportedly uses less wood and is more efficient. I burn 20 to 30 cords of wood per year. I guess that would be about 750 cords into the boiler of its lifetime. I use a lot of heat.

 

[green mountain boys]

you realize that particular engine will outlast you and the frame its mounted too right?

Yes, I bought it new in 1989 and the motor is just as good as when it was new. Just routine maintenance. It has an oversized oil pan, radiator, 2 stage air filter and, I am told, a hardened cam shaft. My engine still had the older carburetor design, not fuel injected. It operates at 2,500rpm. When I chip apple wood, I give the chips to a local guy who smokes pheasants commercially. He gives me a couple of birds in return.

 

[PVGeezer]

Yes, Central Boiler makes outdoor wood boilers with the same design. I have one of the "original" designs from 1995 and it is still going strong. Mine does not burn the exhaust gases it is just a firebox surrounded by a 400 gallon water jacket. The old design is much more simple and requires less maintenance. The new design reportedly uses less wood and is more efficient. I burn 20 to 30 cords of wood per year. I guess that would be about 750 cords into the boiler of its lifetime. I use a lot of heat.

I'm familiar with Central Boiler, excellent product. But I thought they just made log and pellet boilers. Do they make boiiers with hoppers that can utilize little scrap stuff like the branch loggers produce? I would think you'd want some kind of hopper feed for it.

 

[Daddy Tanuki]

Yes, I bought it new in 1989 and the motor is just as good as when it was new. Just routine maintenance. It has an oversized oil pan, radiator, 2 stage air filter and, I am told, a hardened cam shaft. My engine still had the older carburetor design, not fuel injected. It operates at 2,500rpm. When I chip apple wood, I give the chips to a local guy who smokes pheasants commercially. He gives me a couple of birds in return.

separate reply just for you... YOU SUCK!

joking, I bet they taste as Sunshine_Eggo would say... Luscious... you make me ill with all of your wealth.

 

[OM617YOTA]

I burn 20 to 30 cords of wood per year.

Holy crap. Do you use it to heat commercial buildings or something? Maybe maple syrup production?

 

[Daddy Tanuki]

Holy crap. Do you use it to heat commercial buildings or something? Maybe maple syrup production?

in japan I would make jokes about the music playing in the background.... standard Japanese porn sound track... gotta keep it warm for the workers to work...

and before anybody cries foul... at 58 (last friday) every time I pull it out the wife says put that damn thing away before you break a hip.... party foul talking spoil sports....

 

[green mountain boys]

I'm familiar with Central Boiler, excellent product. But I thought they just made log and pellet boilers. Do they make boiiers with hoppers that can utilize little scrap stuff like the branch loggers produce? I would think you'd want some kind of hopper feed for it.

I am not aware of a Central Boiler model that is designed for wood chips. Central Boiler's newer models meet EPA standards by burning the exhaust gasses in a secondary burn chamber. There are quite a few commercial businesses in the New England area that have wood chip boilers of various sizes. I think Crown Royal make a wood chip boiler for residential use but I do not know anything about it.

Holy crap. Do you use it to heat commercial buildings or something? Maybe maple syrup production?

Yes, small commercial and residential heating (3 buildings) in a location that sees very cold nights. Yesterday, the temperature swing from morning to afternoon was 50 F! Welcome to spring.
Maple syrup production is on now. A friend made 140 gallons of syrup yesterday. At 2% sugar content, that would be about 7,000 gallons of sap to boil in one day. Boiling sap requires high heat, usually heating oil or a hot wood fire directly under the evaporation pan.

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

Never seen a furnace ike that in North America. Is something like that available in the US? EPA certified?

Unlike in the States, here in Europe, indoor wood burners are standard (outdoor wood burners are nowhere to be found here). It's a different approach: we don't keep our burners going 24/7 for weeks at a time, instead we use large buffers (mine is 3000L) and we make a single fire once every two days, with the stored energy bridging the days. Since these are indoor, any waste heat also contributes to heating (the main house if it's installed in the basement, or some kind of technical building if not).
Likewise, I've talked about this concept to people I know (and some YTers in the comments) and it's completely alien to them, so my guess is that (except for like one guy on YT who imported it, or some small company that imports them) these are just not available.

 

[green mountain boys]

Unlike in the States, here in Europe, indoor wood burners are standard (outdoor wood burners are nowhere to be found here). It's a different approach: we don't keep our burners going 24/7 for weeks at a time, instead we use large buffers (mine is 3000L) and we make a single fire once every two days, with the stored energy bridging the days. Since these are indoor, any waste heat also contributes to heating (the main house if it's installed in the basement, or some kind of technical building if not).
Likewise, I've talked about this concept to people I know (and some YTers in the comments) and it's completely alien to them, so my guess is that (except for like one guy on YT who imported it, or some small company that imports them) these are just not available.

You are correct. Indoor wood burners that heat a mass are not as popular in the US. This is one example of an indoor boiler, that has been around since the 1970s. They are very well built and have a reputation to last. There are several installed in my area that I know of. One of the main reasons for a lack of widespread adoption is the high initial cost to purchase and install. They are available in several sizes, 1,000 gallon, 2,000 gallon and 3,200 gallon. For larger heating needs they can easily be run in parallel.

 

[Coydon]

Unlike in the States, here in Europe, indoor wood burners are standard (outdoor wood burners are nowhere to be found here). It's a different approach: we don't keep our burners going 24/7 for weeks at a time, instead we use large buffers (mine is 3000L) and we make a single fire once every two days, with the stored energy bridging the days. Since these are indoor, any waste heat also contributes to heating (the main house if it's installed in the basement, or some kind of technical building if not).
Likewise, I've talked about this concept to people I know (and some YTers in the comments) and it's completely alien to them, so my guess is that (except for like one guy on YT who imported it, or some small company that imports them) these are just not available.

This is why I had assumed wood boilers were left off of the chart. They likely produce the same burn efficiency as an RMH, but around here all I've ever heard of are outdoor ones, so the loss of efficiency of the unit and heat transfer seem to make them something that wouldn't come close to anything else listed. Having them in a building makes a lot more sense.

But that was just my vague impression, I'll ask what the discussion around them actually was...

 

[Coydon]

That is thing about catalytics they burn the wood gasView attachment 284097View attachment 284101

That is the basic process of a J tube- the initial burn in the short side extracts wood gasses, then the bend going up the tall side mixes those gasses to perform the secondary burn of remaining particles. Only done with inexpensive, durable materials.

 

[455dan]

That is the basic process of a J tube- the initial burn in the short side extracts wood gasses, then the bend going up the tall side mixes those gasses to perform the secondary burn of remaining particles. Only done with inexpensive, durable materials.

Yes that is the down side of a Catalytic stove, Palladium and or Platinum are not "inexpensive" materials.

We are on our second catalyst for the recent pic. So we did spend $300 about 4 years ago, but that is in the stoves 17 year service so far.
The original catalyst was a very long lived one.

 

[PVGeezer]

There are indoor wood boilers available in the US that are smaller, (more residential sized and priced) than the Garn unit. I haven't found any that are EPA certified for resi use though, if you care about that sort of thing.

This for example comes in 55kbtu/hr and 105 kbtu/hr (16 and 31 KW) sized. I suppose the larger one could be plumbed to a thermal storage tank and fired every other day as is done in the EU. Claims to be able to burn cordwood, chips, and coal.

The same site sells air to water heat pumps as well.

Indoor wood boiler

Edit: that one apparently doesnt do gasification but there is another product line that does.

 

[Frugal Devonian]

 

[skyking1]

Fun topic, thanks for posting it up.
My sister's 1920 sandstone farmhouse had 18" thick walls, 6" in and out with a 6" air gap insulation. It had a big central heating coal fired furnace that had a door to the firebox, it woud burn hardwood all night long. We would get a ton of two of coal delivered for the hopper feed, and then burn mostly apple and cherry wood from the orchard we had cleared for other farming purposes.
When the wood burned down the auger would keep the fire going in the wee hours till you could reload the wood.