How to get solar when you can't afford it

[svetz]

In most U.S. states, grid-tied Solar PV is less expensive than paying the grid for power, and unlike your power bill the prices won't rise due to inflation.

But in order to save money and go green, you need to spend money. What do you do if you don't have it?
(The idea for this thread was Courtesy of @circus, thanks for the poke! Sure hope it helps folks ; -)


Goal
This thread is about members sharing ideas on how to finance a solar PV residential array for everyone that wants to go green, save money, or both.


What's Solar Cost anyway?
To get the ball rolling, we first need to establish a $/kW for solar. Using Tesla as a baseline for lowest cost installed, it's about $2/W. DIY is around $1/W. In Australia, the price for an installed system is $0.50 to $1.00.

@upnorthandpersonal has conducted what is perhaps the most significant citizen experiment in modern times and much talked about on this thread, a 10kW solar system with 28kWh LiFePO4 battery, inverter, BMS and charge controllers for under $12k U.S. dollars. You can't get the prices he did in the U.S. due to tariffs, but for folks outside the U.S. who can handle DIY he's the best starting point I can recommend.

For the U.S. let's get rid of the battery (not needed and prices are still plummeting, you can get one later). Every little bit helps, so let's start with a 5 kW grid-tied array and assume an insolation of 4.5, as the average house consumes under 1000 kWh/month, so a 5 kW array is about 80% of the power most folks need

Not doing any shopping around, the first kit I came across was a 5 kW SMA kit for $6,163, it includes everything needed (except racking) plus engineering materials to get the permit approved. There's a federal credit of 26%, so that brings the cost down to $4,561. If you really shop around you could probably do better. But, you'll also run into unexpected stuff that will increase costs.

Many states and local areas also offer increased incentives. For example in Florida, there is no sales tax on PV gear. It pays to check!


What's the Grid Cost anyway?
Here it's $0.133/kWh, the average U.S. cost 14.3 cents. Some places are a lot less, some have time-of-use pay structures making it very complicated. Inflation of electricity in the U.S. is around 2%, although with the U.S. effort to be net-zero by 2050 it's anyone's guess what the next 30 years will bring.

Above we went with a 5 kW array and an insolation of 4.5, that's 22.5 kWh/d or 8212 kWh/yr which at .133/kWh is $1092/yr savings. So, the break-even point is about 5 years. After that, you're making $1092/year (actually more if you count inflation). Panels are typically warrantied for 20 to 25 years, so that's about $15k to $20k returned on your investment (panels do work after that, but efficiency drops a bit every year).

But it's very dependent on your net-metering agreement. In some places, you won't get paid for the power you produce. It's wrong, and you should write your state officials and congressmen about it.


Wait? That's better than $ in the bank?
Currently yes. Let's look at it as if you were investing in a stock that pays monthly dividends [ref]:

Interest on most savings accounts right now is about 0%. Investing in solar allows you to put your money to work in ways that pay you back.

​

So dare to dream! ​

Build out your system on paper, estimate the costs. People on the forums have been there, they know your fears and concerns, they can and will answer your questions.

Perhaps it's cheaper than you thought and you can pull $ from savings and put them to work for you rather than make no money off it.

If not, hopefully, subsequent posts will strike upon the correct combination of factors that will enable you to not only go green, but save money while doing it.

In the meantime, you might also enjoy this thread as it's even cheaper to use some easy tricks to reduce power consumption.

 

[svetz]

Solar Loans​

You may have seen loans for solar as low as 2%. Typically those are horrible deals because there are front-end loading fees, often pushing them up to as much as 17%! ref

6.3% seems to be about the "average" and it takes a really big bite out of your return.

That said, many states and local areas have special programs that specifically offer reasonable low-interest rates for solar loans.

Some companies like Tesla also offer "loans" in their package and the rates vary depending on your credit history.

This area is very tricky and if you go this way I strongly suggest working carefully through it all before proceeding.
SAM is very good with this, but be sure to watch the tutorials videos as it's a beast.

 

[svetz]

Microinverters - Start small & Build Up​

One of the nicest things about microinverters like Enphase is you can get started with Solar for an incredibly low-cost upfront, and then continue to grow it one panel at a time. It'll cost more overall than a string inverter, but every part is typically warrantied for 20 to 25 years depending on the manufacturer. The downside to not buying all your panels at once is that the color/style might end up being different (if you go frameless and black you're fairly safe).

Currently, a 360W Enphase microinverter is $180, and a 390W Canadian Solar panel is around $185. So each additional W is about $1. You can probably do better shopping around. But the idea is you set up the initial system with what you can afford now, and then build out more as you can afford to. Microinverters of any brand can be used together, but for monitoring and maintenance, it's easiest to stick with the same ones.

Microinverters are generally bit more expensive than inverters, but they bring a few extra things to the table. The first is that if one dies, all the rest are still making power. A typical string inverter usually has a 5 to 10-year warranty, Enphase offers a 25-year warranty. The microinverters go behind the panels, so they don't take up any space. They automatically shut down when the grid isn't detected so don't need auxiliary shutoffs. They have a lower voltage off the roof, are generally more efficient and more reliable. They do have a drawback, currently, they're harder to hook up with a battery (but that's changing).

This is the plan I've been following. Although I'm currently waiting for the next gen of microinverters (IQ8 due out this fall) for my next set.

 

[schmism]

Not doing any shopping around, the first kit I came across was a 5 kW SMA kit for $6,163, it includes everything needed (except racking) plus engineering materials to get the permit approved. There's a federal credit of 26%, so that brings the cost down to $4,561. If you really shop around you could probably do better. But, you'll also run into unexpected stuff that will increase costs.

I am currently pricing Ironridge racking for a ground mount. For 8kw of panels the parts from Ironridge are $1556. Not including 100+ feet of 3" pipe and 2.5 yards of concrete. Also needed is rental of equipment to dig the 6' deep holes needed.

I anticipate having $3000 in a fixed ground mount that is the most common DIY solution. For comparison a Sinclair adjustable mount for the same amount of panels installed was $6812

 

[svetz]

Solar Co-Ops​

The gist of the idea in the link above is getting your neighbors together and many of you buying at once from the same vendor gives you purchasing power to get a better deal. It's also a way to leverage different skills from different people in your community, what you don't know a neighbor might, and vice-versa.

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

I anticipate having $3000 in a fixed ground mount that is the most common DIY solution.

Mine for a 10kW install:

DIY ground mount

Keeping in line with the whole low-cost solar system, building my own braided bus bars, etc. I thought I would see what it takes to build a low-cost ground mount for those 500W 96 cell panels (1310mm x 1956mm). My goals were to make the whole thing simple to build, with minimal tools and simple...

diysolarforum.com

Comes in at €320 per 2kW on my 500W panels, €1600 ($1890) for the full 10kW. Doing 6 panels per frame you can do 9kW for ~€1000.

 

[circus]

(The idea for this thread was Courtesy of @circus, thanks for the poke! Sure hope it helps folks ; -)

Ehh-err, I was being sarcastic. No way I would risk a homeless and starvation future just to save 1.5 gal of fuel today. There are so many better ways to save with just a stroke of a pen. But plutocrats are making too much money the way things are.

 

[svetz]

Ehh-err, I was being sarcastic.

I knew that ; -), doesn't mean you didn't make a damn good counter-point to my flippant remark and I think others agree.

My takeaway was some people might not be aware of the costs and different options to get into solar, and that might be holding them back regardless of how concerned they are about climate change.

Obviously not everyone worried is still going to be able to do something about it...but a lot of folks might be able to if they're were just aware of different options. In fact, they might well be better off putting money sitting idle in savings by investing in safe solar (long warranties from companies liable to be around that long).

So, well worth a thread to get a discussion going. I put down what I know, hopefully, other members have some thoughts on it too.
I sure hope some find it useful.

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

You can't get the prices he did in the U.S. due to tariffs

That's mostly only true for the solar panels, and I've seen some pretty good sources for panels across the pond while browsing threads on the forum here. All the other components should be available at the same prices. I remember there was a guy on YT who used my system as a blueprint for his (in Arizona if I remember correctly). Sadly, he deleted all his social media including his YT channel - probably due to some privacy issues according to this...

 

[wattmatters]

a baseline for lowest cost installed, it's about $2/W. DIY is around $1/W.

In Australia the cost for professionally installed solar PV systems ranges from US$0.40-$1.00/W. The range accounts for varying complexity of rooftops, allowing for quality budget systems to premium set ups, and varying incentives available. There are also some zero interest govt loans available in some places on top of other incentives.

DIY for grid tied PV is rare and not generally permitted as systems need to be installed by a certified installer in order to qualify for the Federal govt solar rebate. Approval is required for connection by the local distribution company. There are tight limits on what may/may not be installed as well as how much power may be fed back to the grid.

Off-grid is a bit different and this is where our DIY scene is.

Energy tariff regimes vary a lot in the US, everything from zero return for export to being credited at the same rate as you pay to import. This will be a big influence on the financial viability. 1:1 import:export tariff ratio is very rare in Australia.

In Australia the norm across the nation is export credits per kWh are ~1/3rd of the import tariff (give or take). There are some legacy govt feed in schemes still in operation (no new entrants since 2016) which offer generous feed in credits but they represent a very small minority of solar PV homes nowadays. Our import tariff structures vary a lot across the country, so doing the numbers requires a bit of work. Time of use tariffs are becoming normal, and in some states demand based tariffs will become standard (where there are specific peak period power demand charges as well as energy consumption tariffs).

As a result of the lowish export:import tariff ratio, self consumption of solar PV is the way to maximise payback and so ways to load shift consumption to solar production hours is encouraged. As are array orientations which spread out the solar production curve across the day, although for the most part people have the roof they have and that dictates the orientation of arrays.

Commercially available and professionally installed home storage (batteries) at ~US$0.9-1.5/Wh are not near close to being financially viable, at least not yet. They need to fall to ~US$0.2/Wh for them to make sense in large sections of our national grid. In some areas US$0.4 is on the borderline of viability. So for the most part people buying home batteries here are early adopters not concerned with the financials, they want some energy security (or they have been duped about the financials) and a sense of independence.

 

[svetz]

Community (Condo) Solar​

Another way to make solar more affordable is to share the costs and benefits with your neighbors. A community solar program involves building a small solar “garden” that multiple households get power from. The community might collectively own this garden, or a third party might own it and allow nearby customers to purchase power from it.

This solution can also work for people that live in condominiums or apartments that share a roof where there is an association, that is the owners, as a community, are making the decisions.

A lot of folks get freaked out by this concept as they don't see how it can be done fairly. The picture to the right shows the basics; how much power a unit uses is measured by the CT. There's probably countless better ways to do it. The grid charges the co-op, the co-op charges the owners of the units discounting for the amount of solar power.

View attachment 64037​

I don't know of anyplace this is being done, but don't see why it couldn't be done.

 

[740GLE]

All depends on local regulating bodies.

Group net metering has been around for a while in NH, ie if my solar system is so big I don’t want a check for excessive generation once the year is up, apply my kwhr credit to xx neighbor or business.

There’s limits it size of the system and how much free use of the grid to transport that energy around on other ratepayers dime. But again each location and regulating body is determining which is best for all rate payers not just those that want to be “green” on the dimes of those who just want cheap power and good reliability.

 

[svetz]

All depends on local regulating bodies.

Everything does, I even see some say that while local HOAs can't deny solar that they can demand other things because of it that make it prohibitive. Which party is it whose creed is stay out of my business and I'll stay out of yours? Maybe we all need to join because laws exist to serve us and those regulating bodies and laws can be changed.

 

[Hedges]

California now requires rooftop solar for new construction. Or, share in community solar.

Solar Requirements for Commercial and Residential Development in California - Cal Solar, Inc.

Way back in 2018, California’s Building Standards Commission swore in a new piece of legislation completely unique to any previous law in the United States. In an effort to draw 100% of state electricity from renewable resources, the government mandated that solar panels would be required on all...

www.calsolarinc.com

A larger scale system would cost about half as much per kW. Except for the real estate (which could be prohibitively expensive.)
Ideal could be if a rancher or other landowner got a fee for hosting the PV system. Credit individual homeowners for power production similar to net-metering on their rooftop (but allow a reasonable local-transmission charge by the utility.) Let homeowners buy/sell shares in the PV plant to adjust their portion of capacity to meet their needs.

Or just have an investor-owned utility that passes all profits through to shareholders, which could include homeowners and others.
The trick is to properly allocate costs for transmission.

 

[schmism]

Mine for a 10kW install:

DIY ground mount

Keeping in line with the whole low-cost solar system, building my own braided bus bars, etc. I thought I would see what it takes to build a low-cost ground mount for those 500W 96 cell panels (1310mm x 1956mm). My goals were to make the whole thing simple to build, with minimal tools and simple...

diysolarforum.com

Comes in at €320 per 2kW on my 500W panels, €1600 ($1890) for the full 10kW. Doing 6 panels per frame you can do 9kW for ~€1000.

FYI for others, Many jurisdictions will not allow DIY built ground mounts. I am being forced to move to an "engineer sealed design mount". As such the cost is significantly more than my DIY version I currenlty have built.

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

FYI for others, Many jurisdictions will not allow DIY built ground mounts. I am being forced to move to an "engineer sealed design mount". As such the cost is significantly more than my DIY version I currenlty have built.

Yeah, always check with your local laws. In my case, here in Finland, an exemption in the "Land Use and Construction Act" was made in 2017 that essentially states that a license/permit is not required if the solar install does not significantly affects the cityscape or environment. In rural areas this usually means that you don't annoy your neighbors by installing panels near property lines blasting reflected light in their direction.

 

[12VoltInstalls]

The cash price of $4000 or $6K is achievable or should be by most homeowners with some planning. This enables monetary freedom down the road.

Financing these kind of expenditures makes little sense imho

 

[wattmatters]

Another way to make solar more affordable is to share the costs and benefits with your neighbors. A community solar program involves building a small solar “garden” that multiple households get power from. The community might collectively own this garden, or a third party might own it and allow nearby customers to purchase power from it.

There's an Australian company which has designed a system specifically for sharing of solar power amongst apartments or strata type set ups.

Homepage - Allume Energy

allumeenergy.com

It's a pretty neat bit of kit.

We have some community owned renewable energy systems here but they are not all that large. I was involved in helping a local group which has one project supplying solar energy to a group of local businesses. But enthusiasm for it seems to have waned of late. I suspect because commercial solar options are pretty darned competitive, the need for community based solutions isn't so great.

 

[chrisski]

I consider this funny math.. Maybe even new math or government math. I recommend saving energy by turning AC up to 80 and paying down debt elsewhere.

I pay on the average $220 a month for electricity. Locally, to plan for a solar install, that would be $15k per 5kw of panels installed, and nothing can really be done on my end for DIY to make that cheaper. I also need about 15 kw of panels to reach my break even point.

So, to save myself $220 a month in electrify, I go out and take a $45k loan, of which about $15k will be paid back tome from the government in tax savings. I’ll pretend like my taxes don’t pay for this $15k back, so I need a loan for $30k to save $220 on my electric bill.

So I go to a loan calculator and find that my break even point is 15 years. As I watch my neighbors, I’m finding their system is getting at least a little work on it, in his case a bank of panels replaced. But that’s OK because its a leased system and the company bit the bullet on that. Buying a system that cost is on me. I highly doubt these systems sit on the roof for 15 years maintenance free, so there will always be hidden costs.

Someone may say, but inflation….. Maybe this will slide the breakeven point a bit to the left. Maybe 14 years. Maybe 10. Things go like they are now, maybe 2 years.

There’s also some magic number out there where the grid your tied into can only get fed so much energy, and I think hat number is somewhere around 5%, so as more houses get these panels on the roof, this excess energy will need to be limited, and I do think that 10 years down the road, in the summer my 15 kw of panels will power my AC and I do good for that month, but the winter months, where my electric bill is 20% of what it is now, I’ll be capable of producing 3X as much power as I use for that month, but grid has so many people feeding it back, I won’t be able to push it out at max capacity. If you think this is not a problem, it may not be. Few now, but more often, to backfeed solar, someone is being asked to add a trand former for the grid to replace the POCOs older less capable ones.

In the end though, I believe in what a financial advisor told me, and its someone’s money and they will make the decisions that bring them the most happiness, but sometimes those decisions get you in a bit of debt.

 

[12VoltInstalls]

I recommend saving energy by turning AC up to 80 and paying down debt elsewhere

Balderdash

That’s too conservative and fiscally responsible for a successful progressive society