How to get solar when you can't afford it

[Stepandwolf]

One of the issues I have is everyone, including the example above, assume tax credits. When I received quotes from three local companies who claimed "free systems", they had to change all their numbers when I said I wasn't eligible for a tax credit. I see the solar system sellers assuming tax credits because it makes their numbers better.

My power bills run from ~$55 to $85. Half the bill is the crap they add on. Fuel cost adjustment (renewable and non-renewable), renewable energy rider, customer charge, cost effective energy program, city/county franchise fees, and finally, three levels of sales tax. My $76.29 bill for August was $41 for energy, $35 in crap added on.

At the time I got the quotes (a few years ago), they all quoted me $15K installed. I calculated all the costs, i.e. parts, plans, etc. came to under $5K. With the drop in panel prices, the cost today would be less, but I bet they still want $15K.

As you get older, you may never live long enough for payback. Even if you live long enough, will you still be in the same home? I don't know the value added to a home sale for solar, but I am thinking it isn't so much, if at all, unless you get the right buyer.

 

[anadiner]

In most U.S. states, grid-tied Solar PV is less expensive than paying the grid for power, and unlike your power bill the prices won't rise due to inflation.

But in order to save money and go green, you need to spend money. What do you do if you don't have it?
(The idea for this thread was Courtesy of @circus, thanks for the poke! Sure hope it helps folks ; -)


Goal
This thread is about members sharing ideas on how to finance a solar PV residential array for everyone that wants to go green, save money, or both.


What's Solar Cost anyway?
To get the ball rolling, we first need to establish a $/kW for solar. Using Tesla as a baseline for lowest cost installed, it's about $2/W. DIY is around $1/W.

@upnorthandpersonal has conducted what is perhaps the most significant citizen experiment in modern times and much talked about on this thread, a 10kW solar system with 28kWh LiFePO4 battery, inverter, BMS and charge controllers for under $12k U.S. dollars. You can't get the prices he did in the U.S. due to tariffs, but for folks outside the U.S. who can handle DIY he's the best starting point I can recommend.

For the U.S. let's get rid of the battery (not needed and prices are still plummeting, you can get one later). Every little bit helps, so let's start with a 5 kW grid-tied array and assume an insolation of 4.5, as the average house consumes under 1000 kWh/month, so a 5 kW array is about 80% of the power most folks need

Not doing any shopping around, the first kit I came across was a 5 kW SMA kit for $6,163, it includes everything needed (except racking) plus engineering materials to get the permit approved. There's a federal credit of 26%, so that brings the cost down to $4,561. If you really shop around you could probably do better. But, you'll also run into unexpected stuff that will increase costs.

Many states and local areas also offer increased incentives. For example in Florida, there is no sales tax on PV gear. It pays to check!


What's the Grid Cost anyway?
Here it's $0.133/kWh, the average U.S. cost 14.3 cents. Some places are a lot less, some have time-of-use pay structures making it very complicated. Inflation of electricity in the U.S. is around 2%, although with the U.S. effort to be net-zero by 2050 it's anyone's guess what the next 30 years will bring.

Above we went with a 5 kW array and an insolation of 4.5, that's 22.5 kWh/d or 8212 kWh/yr which at .133/kWh is $1092/yr savings. So, the break-even point is about 5 years. After that, you're making $1092/year (actually more if you count inflation). Panels are typically warrantied for 20 to 25 years, so that's about $15k to $20k returned on your investment (panels do work after that, but efficiency drops a bit every year).

But it's very dependent on your net-metering agreement. In some places, you won't get paid for the power you produce. It's wrong, and you should write your state officials and congressmen about it.


Wait? That's better than $ in the bank?
Currently yes. Let's look at it as if you were investing in a stock that pays monthly dividends [ref]:

View attachment 63940

View attachment 63941

Interest on most savings accounts right now is about 0%. Investing in solar allows you to put your money to work in ways that pay you back.

​

So dare to dream! ​

Build out your system on paper, estimate the costs. People on the forums have been there, they know your fears and concerns, they can and will answer your questions.

Perhaps it's cheaper than you thought and you can pull $ from savings and put them to work for you rather than make no money off it.

If not, hopefully, subsequent posts will strike upon the correct combination of factors that will enable you to not only go green, but save money while doing it.

In the meantime, you might also enjoy this thread as it's even cheaper to use some easy tricks to reduce power consumption.

I gotta come back this thread cuz its lonnggg. LOL

Start with making 2 points right off:
1. Many many of us dont go solar for the money. Sure some are cost- variance but a lot, like myself, see solar as freedom from control. Sick of being powerless in a monopolistically society that says if ur home doesnt have electric, it will be condemned. So bite me.
2. Many many many counties, like mine, make it tough and ecpensive. IE) forcing ALL components to be UL listed. Adding insult to injury, if ur going complete off-grid like me, its UL 1741 (difficult to find and pricey). 99% of UL off-grid inverters are UL 458 (mobile like RVs).

So, will come back with more detail. Wanted to note that cuz those barriers make it difficult for large homes.

I've taken the micro-inverter concept and turned it into groups of 24Vs. Affordable and can purchase bit at a time.

 

[Stepandwolf]

BTW, I really like a YT channel that has been working on their solar in the last couple episodes. C-channel and trailer jacks for tilt, what a deal.

 

[anadiner]

One of the issues I have is everyone, including the example above, assume tax credits. When I received quotes from three local companies who claimed "free systems", they had to change all their numbers when I said I wasn't eligible for a tax credit. I see the solar system sellers assuming tax credits because it makes their numbers better.

My power bills run from ~$55 to $85. Half the bill is the crap they add on. Fuel cost adjustment (renewable and non-renewable), renewable energy rider, customer charge, cost effective energy program, city/county franchise fees, and finally, three levels of sales tax. My $76.29 bill for August was $41 for energy, $35 in crap added on.

At the time I got the quotes (a few years ago), they all quoted me $15K installed. I calculated all the costs, i.e. parts, plans, etc. came to under $5K. With the drop in panel prices, the cost today would be less, but I bet they still want $15K.

As you get older, you may never live long enough for payback. Even if you live long enough, will you still be in the same home? I don't know the value added to a home sale for solar, but I am thinking it isn't so much, if at all, unless you get the right buyer.

Touche!

Get this: I live in a beach town (seasonal). And u bet utility companies take that fact and run with it.

Many folk come down once or twice a year. Some less. BUT u dog on right, power, water, sewer makes it impossible to disconnect unless big bucks.

So, stuck paying the monthly fees if u want utilities water, etc when u do come to town. Even cable (Spectrum) charges a monthly fee to be seasonal.

 

[anadiner]

Touche!

Get this: I live in a beach town (seasonal). And u bet utility companies take that fact and run with it.

Many folk come down once or twice a year. Some less. BUT u dog on right, power, water, sewer makes it impossible to disconnect unless big bucks.

So, stuck paying the monthly fees if u want utilities water, etc when u do come to town. Even cable (Spectrum) charged a monthly fee to be seasonal.

How does the edit thing work? Wanta correct typos.

 

[chrisski]

On my iPad and COmputer, on the bottom left is a “Edit“ button. I think on my phone, its three dots I press and edit pops up. Unfortunately, each device is different. If you’re accessing it off something like tapatalk, that is a different set of things, Editing disappears after about 24 hours.

 

[Texas-Mark]

I consider this funny math.. Maybe even new math or government math.

.......

So I go to a loan calculator and find that my break even point is 15 years.

I agree. I don't know where people come up with some of these numbers. Even with lower costs now for some things (my small system is about 15 years old), I just don't see the 5 year payback quoted in the original post.

 

[chrisski]

my small system is about 15 years old),

Have you had any maintenance along the way? Stuff that was necessary like replacing panels, not things like upgrading a monitoring system. I’ve only had my system a year on my RV, and its pretty maintenance free, but boy have the upgrades cost me a lot.

 

[Texas-Mark]

Have you had any maintenance along the way? Stuff that was necessary like replacing panels

Nothing major except batteries once.

 

[anadiner]

On my iPad and COmputer, on the bottom left is a “Edit“ button. I think on my phone, its three dots I press and edit pops up. Unfortunately, each device is different. If you’re accessing it off something like tapatalk, that is a different set of things, Editing disappears after about 24 hours.

Ok thx. I was able to change couple typos. I assume u mean the edit option goes away not the actual edits.

 

[wattmatters]

I consider this funny math.. Maybe even new math or government math. I recommend saving energy by turning AC up to 80 and paying down debt elsewhere.

It's very much dependent on where you are as the costs for solar PV, the productive yield of systems and the applicable tariffs and regulatory regimes vary so much.

This is how it worked out for us:



Our bills have reduced by more than $3.2k/year.

Installed cost at the time was A$12.8k for 11kW. Another 12-18 months and we'll be ahead.

Same system nowadays would cost ~A$9-10k.

But costs of circa A$10k are still beyond a lot of people.

 

[Hedges]

Our bills have reduced by more than $3.2k/year.

Same system nowadays would cost ~A$9-10k.

But costs of circa A$10k are still beyond a lot of people.

And THAT is the difference between the rich and the poor.

 

[12VoltInstalls]

And THAT is the difference between the rich and the poor.

Not exactly sure what you are meaning here. No matter…there’s books of topics to be had there. In the last 25 years for various not relevant here most people would consider me poor at different periods. Including when I was a single parent to two teenage girls (youngest now 26 for context).

You don’t have to stay or choose poor imho. People choose not to make changes to get out of trouble- but they’ll choose to pay their cable bill, buy a four-wheeler, and have a rent-a-center tv and couch.
They could choose discomfort for a year or two and replace tv time with something productive and get ahead or at least even. Once you’re ahead you can make better choices… “do the stuff you hate to do like you love to do it. That’s discipline” -Mike Tyson

Way too often the difference between the rich and the poor is the choices they make.

I made some tough choices just three or four years back after another ‘broke’ period. Sorta got ripped off pretty bad.
My solar cost broke even in a month because it enabled me to to live and not spend money in other areas. I kept pushing for three-and-a-half years and now I’m in a good situation.

The “poor” don’t always choose to get poor, but they often don’t choose to stop being poor. But generally? they can!

If you’re broke, own a mortgage I mean home, and you know you’re paying out for electric- and could make that expense 80%+ less in five years? People need to choose that…when costs go down increasing economic viability is nearly exponential.

A 15 or 20 year break even isn’t an investment imho- it’s an expense. If you can’t use it to eat or pay a bill it’s an expense.

But people buy new cars, TVs, consumer items, eat out regularly, replace phones that aren’t dead yet, have expensive pets…
And they can’t save $5000 for solar?
They can, they just don’t.

 

[svetz]

I consider this funny math..

..and yet, we have this...

upnorthandpersonal has conducted what is perhaps the most significant citizen experiment in modern times and much talked about on this thread, a 10kW solar system with 28kWh LiFePO4 battery, inverter, BMS and charge controllers for under $12k U.S. dollars.

Not theory, but actual practice. As the average U.S. power consumption is under 30 kWh/d, a 5 kW grid-tied array would eliminate a big chunk of their carbon footprint and save them money in the long run.

...When I received quotes from three local companies who claimed "free systems"...

There are scammers everywhere, DIYers routinely report installed costs of $1/W, Tesla advertises around $2/W installed, and in the What should you pay for a Solar Installation? thread you'll see Will even paid $3/W for an installed system (he didn't get scammed, as mentioned it's based on location and small installers have a lot of overhead, it's why DIY is far less expensive).

I've taken the micro-inverter concept ... can purchase bit at a time.

There's a lot to be said for the approach in post #3.

My power bills run from ~$55 to $85. Half the bill is the crap they add on. ... My $76.29 bill for August was $41 for energy, $35 in crap added on.

I don't mind transmission fees since I'm using the grid as a battery, fair trade to me. But a lot of other stuff on the bill seems wrong.
When batteries get cheap enough I figure folks will start disconnecting from the grid. But Public Utilities can't be allowed to fail and despite all the tricks in the world a lot still aren't going to be able to afford solar, which means they'll just have to find new ways to tax everyone else, it just won't be the power bill.

...I don't know the value added to a home sale for solar, but I am thinking it isn't so much, if at all, unless you get the right buyer....

Used to be a detriment, but now people are starting to see it as a value add (assuming the installation is professional looking). "Lease" programs (not mentioned in this thread as way to get into solar as I suspect everyone thinks they're bad) used to be a big barrier, but it looks like even that resistance is dropping. ref

I don't know where people come up with some of these numbers. Even with lower costs now for some things (my small system is about 15 years old), I just don't see the 5 year payback quoted in the original post.

[Any expenses?] Nothing major except batteries once.

The system in the OP doesn't include batteries. Batteries tend to blow the economics out of the water (or did when I was looking). As you can see from @upnorthandpersonal 's impressive build, those costs have come way down and are continuing to fall. But for grid-tied in the U.S., batteries aren't really needed to save money and start reducing CO2 emissions.

Batteries can be added after prices fall more, a DOE program aims to reduce the cost by 90%.

It's very much dependent on where you are as the costs for solar PV, the productive yield of systems and the applicable tariffs and regulatory regimes vary so much. ... still beyond a lot of people.

Everyone's situation is a bit different and that's why this thread exists.

Let's wring every trick from every member so someone that wants a solar PV system can find a way to get it.

I hope the thread shows some that it can be done with what they have now. For those that still can't swing it, I hope it brings some hope to see a day that they can. Prices have fallen a lot, I think they will continue to do so.

 

[anadiner]

Not exactly sure what you are meaning here. No matter…there’s books of topics to be had there. In the last 25 years for various not relevant here most people would consider me poor at different periods. Including when I was a single parent to two teenage girls (youngest now 26 for context).

You don’t have to stay or choose poor imho. People choose not to make changes to get out of trouble- but they’ll choose to pay their cable bill, buy a four-wheeler, and have a rent-a-center tv and couch.
They could choose discomfort for a year or two and replace tv time with something productive and get ahead or at least even. Once you’re ahead you can make better choices… “do the stuff you hate to do like you love to do it. That’s discipline” -Mike Tyson

Way too often the difference between the rich and the poor is the choices they make.

I made some tough choices just three or four years back after another ‘broke’ period. Sorta got ripped off pretty bad.
My solar cost broke even in a month because it enabled me to to live and not spend money in other areas. I kept pushing for three-and-a-half years and now I’m in a good situation.

The “poor” don’t always choose to get poor, but they often don’t choose to stop being poor. But generally? they can!

If you’re broke, own a mortgage I mean home, and you know you’re paying out for electric- and could make that expense 80%+ less in five years? People need to choose that…when costs go down increasing economic viability is nearly exponential.

A 15 or 20 year break even isn’t an investment imho- it’s an expense. If you can’t use it to eat or pay a bill it’s an expense.

But people buy new cars, TVs, consumer items, eat out regularly, replace phones that aren’t dead yet, have expensive pets…
And they can’t save $5000 for solar?
They can, they just don’t.

Most USA citizens live beyond their means and buy/do all that stuff on credit hence debt. Debt is part of societal control. (Gotta get/stay in a job that u hate or killing u so u can pay bills, get the kids video games, pay medical, etc)

Im an oddity. While I did choose to leave the proletariat, I had to simplify my life and make enormous sacrifices. I learned fairly young in order to be free in a capitalist economy, u 1st must use that capitalism. Hence I entered financial world... fortunate to exit and retire by 50.

BUT BUT with much sacrifice. IE) Sold convertible. Now a bumper sticker that says 'its paid for'. Get it?

So sure, can go in debt to go all solar now... prob get eaten alive being over charged or loan interest.

Back to ppl like me, a horse of diff color, 24Vs one at a time as can afford.

But yes, majority of folks will bite if solar made appealing and seemingly affordable. Upnorth... is on to a brilliant idea. Ive commented on that before.

 

[12VoltInstalls]

Let's wring every trick from every member so someone that wants a solar PV system can find a way to get it.

Agree. It’s just hard to get people thinking beyond “monthly” because the tangible benefit is delayed

 

[wattmatters]

If you are very resources limited, or say live itinerantly, then the ways to generate some energy and comfort for yourself and your dependents is going to be pretty different to a grid tied rooftop system.

That's where the small mobile DIY builds Will has shown on his videos can be so good.

Doesn't need to be all new stuff. Look for pre-loved kit, second hand market can be great for pulling together stuff. Visit a forum like this and ask questions. Plenty are going to be willing to provide guidance. People will have stuff surplus to their needs. Even if you can get 6 months out of an older AGM battery which buys time to find something else. And the battery still has scrap value at the end of life.

People are pretty much giving old panels away. In Australia old panels no longer on the approved list (old models fall off the list each year) can't be reused for grid tied systems, so there is a stack of them which can be redeployed or go to landfill. Recycling centres have stuff.

 

[JeepHammer]

Balderdash

That’s too conservative and fiscally responsible for a successful progressive society

Shouldn't you have used the sarcasm color or emogee or whatever?

With the last couple generations they only speak "tictok" and BoobTube... Plain English is a foreign language to them.

 

[Nobodybusiness]

let's start with a 5 kW grid-tied array and assume an insolation of 4.5, as the average house consumes under 1000 kWh/month, so a 5 kW array is about 80% of the power most folks need

Not sure where those houses are.
All electric houses use a lot more than that.

Only way you use 1000kw a month (30KW a day) year round Is to use Propane, NG ,Kerosene, Heating oil or wood heat then no AC at all in the summer then maybe 1000kwh month or you live in a constant year round 72 degrees weather.

Maybe if you have a purpose built house with 6 foot thick walls and R-900 insulation.

If its just about electricity usage aspect then ok but I thought fossil fuel was the enemy here?

Bring on the ranters who sit in the dark and have the thermostats at 50 degrees in winter and 85 in summer and only use 600kw a month!!!!
?

 

[Nobodybusiness]

Way too often the difference between the rich and the poor is the choices they make.

Amen..