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How to make LifePo4 "safer" ?

akumd

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Joined
Feb 8, 2024
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29
Location
Sri lanka
I currently use Deep-Cycle lead acid battery(12v-100AH) with my small Off-grid solar system, but since it's(Battery) capacity has dropped significantly after using only for a 1 year, thinking of switching to a LifePo4 pack (since I don't like to buy a new battery each year).
But the problem is I don't have a separate shed/room (with ALL flammable stuff removed) like all others do to mitigate the risks associated with Lithium batteries.
I can keep the battery away from any bed rooms. But still inside the house.
[Also LTO is too expensive for me and NOT readily available in my country]

I know LifePO4 is significantly safer than it's predecessors, but still posses a risk.
Could you kindly please weigh in on my below intended approaches to make it safer.
Are they all (or some) useless ? Should I avoid LifePO4 ? What would you do if you were me 🥺 ?

- This will only be a low powered (24v 100AH) battery
- JK BMS used
- Prismatic A grade Lifepo4 cells used from a reputed brand (e.g. EVE) with QR codes verified.
- Intending to use 2 or 4 "Fireproof RC Model Lipo Battery Safety Protective Storage Case Explosion Proof Box", with only 4 or 2 cells in one box(as per the ad - box is produced with thick, high-strength Q235 carbon steel). With cells compressed with a non-conductive ABS sheet in between the cells.
1712305288090.png
- Cells will NOT directly contact metallic box (a non-conductive ABS material placed in between cells and the box)
- I can additionally put each box again inside separate Lipo Safety Bags(or place Cells inside the Lipo bag and then place the Lipo bag inside the above metallic box). [Don't know if Lipo safe bag is of any use in LifePO4 context]
- All of above placed in a metallic Battery cabinet
- I can cover the battery cabinet with a fire blanket.
- [Optionally - not sure if this is feasible] Add independent(from BMS) temperature sensor to each cell (either to alarm and/or automatically cut-off the battery if at least one sensor detects a temp rise. It will be powered(or at least started) by a different smaller pow supply).
- Not sure about the strength of the above metallic box since it did NOT arrive yet, but if it is strong enough I can keep a plastic sand bag on top of each box.
- Keep 1 or 2 , Auto fire Extinguishers balls inside the battery cabinet. I saw YT videos saying they don't work and only the large sound they make is useful.
[This brand is NOT available for purchase in my country unfortunately => Saw this YT video showing a Auto Fire Extinguishers(Fire ball) extinguishing a Lithium fire (but NOT much details available)-
]

At last, keep Gas masks enough for every one in the house, if all above fails (since LifePO4 fumes are said to be toxic) + Fire extinguisher.
 
At last, keep Gas masks enough for every one in the house,
Never heard of this. What type of mask? The masks I use don’t filter out smoke,
plastic sand bag on top of each box
I’ve filled a few sandbags and would not want these above my batteries.

Very heavy and after time they leak.
Should I avoid LifePO4 ? What would you do if you were me 🥺 ?
i would figure out why the lead acid batteries only last a year. My guess is the system is not big enough.
Intending to use 2 or 4 "Fireproof RC Model Lipo Battery Safety Protective Storage Case Explosion Proof Box", with only 4 or 2 cells in one box(as per the ad - box is produced with thick, high-strength Q235 carbon steel). With cells compressed with a non-conductive ABS sheet in between the cells.
1712305288090.png
These look like ammo cans.
 
Thanks all who responded.
You could put your batteries, inverter and other parts in a separate shed. As an added bonus, this would remove the noise from the fans from the house at the same time.
@Bongbong , I would have to build a new shed from scratch for this. Which is a big task.


You’re way overthinking this. Gas masks? Lifepo4 is just as safe as lead, especially AGM batteries. For a simple 24 volt 100ah battery, you’re probably better off just getting a commercially built unit and be done with it.
@Brett V , I already keep the 12v-100AH Deep cycle battery in my house. Do you think both these posses (approximately) same level of risks ?
 
@chrisski , thanks.

Never heard of this. What type of mask?
ones used for painting (which covers eyes and mouth with filters). I think they provide some safety for toxicity of paint.
May be they are not much effective for a Lifepo4 fume toxicity level. But I thought they might provide sufficient safety for ppl to run out of the house in case of a Lithium smoke.


I’ve filled a few sandbags and would not want these above my batteries.
Yes you might be correct. Unfortunately things like Cellblock FCS is NOT available in my country.

i would figure out why the lead acid batteries only last a year. My guess is the system is not big enough.
Currently I use a 550W Trina panel, with a MPPT SCC(Hybrid offgrid inverter - UTL). My usual use was less than 200W and rarely reached 220W. I live in a tropical country (Sri Lanka) with sun light from 8AM to 4PM, usually. But some days are cloudy (my guess was such days resulted in higher cycle count). Unlike BMS used for Lithium, for Lead-Acid there is no way to measure cycle count right ?
Also my charge current was 15A and (later)18A (according to the Battery spec can use 0.1C to 0.25C - i.e. 10A to 25A for charging). Was this too much ?
(with the 24v-100AH LifePo4 my plan was to add a 605W panel(in series - curr. rating do match) and increase day time use till about 400-500W).

How do you propose I can improve the system such that a Deep-cycle Lead acid can be used for a longer time ?
 
I'd consider LiFePo4 quite safe.

@shadowmaker, yes, that is what I have heard too (and hoping to be true 🙏 ). But the emitted smoke is highly toxic. Also saw at least 2 cases of LifePO4 explosions(not severe as NMC still) in this forum.
Also in below video, he does NOT provide a video demo, but raises the point that, all of LifePO4 safe demos are done with one Cell and in open air. According to him, trouble occurs when multiple cells present in a confined space. I could not find a test done in a confined space, yet.

Also in below video, there is a flame (not nearly as NMC level)
 
To make them safer ensure all your connections are done properly and that good components are used. I would rate the relative fire risk higher for batteries in your hand held devices. Also many kitchen appliances pose higher fire risk either from poor construction or through misuse. It is rather amazing how many grease fires happen.

One thing you can look into is a fire suppression blanket. Also a good idea to have a CO detector and also a smoke alarm installed near the batteries.
 
@shadowmaker, yes, that is what I have heard too (and hoping to be true 🙏 ). But the emitted smoke is highly toxic. Also saw at least 2 cases of LifePO4 explosions(not severe as NMC still) in this forum.
Also in below video, he does NOT provide a video demo, but raises the point that, all of LifePO4 safe demos are done with one Cell and in open air. According to him, trouble occurs when multiple cells present in a confined space. I could not find a test done in a confined space, yet.
They do say that white smoke coming from LFP cell is toxic/highly toxic, but then what smoke isn't? Smoke detector operated fan ventilating outside might be cure for that. For punctures, just don't allow any crowbars in the same room with your batteries...

To make them safer ensure all your connections are done properly and that good components are used. I would rate the relative fire risk higher for batteries in your hand held devices.
THIS.
 
1. There is probably a far greater chance of any DIY solar system generating a regular electrical (wiring) fire than a battery chemical fire so this should remain the primary concern. This includes BMS equipment and wiring. And this includes internal wiring to inverters and charge controllers.

2. I added a passive vent system that would allow gases to escape outdoors if a cell vented. I made the vent vent out of 4" aluminum dryer duct.

#2 Puts me in the paranoid category on this forum, but I can tell you I am still more worried about my charge controller catching fire. The charge controller is the only non-lug DC terminal in my system, and charge controllers are known for catching on fire internally.
 
Thanks all who responded.

@Bongbong , I would have to build a new shed from scratch for this. Which is a big task.



@Brett V , I already keep the 12v-100AH Deep cycle battery in my house. Do you think both these posses (approximately) same level of risks ?
I don't know how your house looks, I think it will be simpler to just put your batteries against an outside wall of your house and build a simple cabinet around it if needed.. Eliminates concerns about fumes inside the house, etc.
 
...

2. I added a passive vent system that would allow gases to escape outdoors if a cell vented. I made the vent vent out of 4" aluminum dryer duct.

...
My batteries are right below a 3X3 sliding window. Might prove difficult to open if a big fire happened but it could be broken fairly easy if required to vent smoke. Maybe I need to install a sign, "Break glass in case of Fire".
 
as suggested below, ventilation duct seems a good idea,

They do say that white smoke coming from LFP cell is toxic/highly toxic, but then what smoke isn't? Smoke detector operated fan ventilating outside might be cure for that. For punctures, just don't allow any crowbars in the same room with your batteries...


THIS.
1. There is probably a far greater chance of any DIY solar system generating a regular electrical (wiring) fire than a battery chemical fire so this should remain the primary concern. This includes BMS equipment and wiring. And this includes internal wiring to inverters and charge controllers.

2. I added a passive vent system that would allow gases to escape outdoors if a cell vented. I made the vent vent out of 4" aluminum dryer duct.

#2 Puts me in the paranoid category on this forum, but I can tell you I am still more worried about my charge controller catching fire. The charge controller is the only non-lug DC terminal in my system, and charge controllers are known for catching on fire internally.
 
as suggested below, ventilation duct seems a good idea,
I used this (car part):


With this (dryer duct):


They are not guaranteed compatible diameters, but with mine turned out the rigid collar on the dryer duct vent just barely fit over that flange with force, so they made a perfect interference fit. They could probably also be used with flexible semi rigid aluminum duct for a longer run. But I don't know that the semi rigid would definitely fit well with the Spectre, again because it's a car part.
 
No, I’d say the LFP is safer than the lead acid battery.
@Brett V , komoai (it doesn't need any registration and I don't have a chat GPT account yet,) seems to agree with you.

Hoping others are NOT disagreeing 🙏 with this statement ("LFP is safer than the lead acid battery.").
1712324900169.png
 
I used this (car part):


With this (dryer duct):


They are not guaranteed compatible diameters, but with mine turned out the rigid collar on the dryer duct vent just barely fit over that flange with force, so they made a perfect interference fit. They could probably also be used with flexible semi rigid aluminum duct for a longer run. But I don't know that the semi rigid would definitely fit well with the Spectre, again because it's a car part.
@hwy17, do you use a ventilation fan too ?
 
But the problem is I don't have a separate shed/room (with ALL flammable stuff removed) like all others do to mitigate the risks associated with Lithium batteries.
I think as mentioned, most people that isolate their solar system do so because of the chance of a regular electric fire, which is way more likely.

I'm not saying you're being overkill with isolating the battery in a box and such, any layers of safety you can add are obviously good... However, I think it's much more likely that a charge controller, bad connection, user error, accidentally bridging something, etc., ends up being the cause of a potential fire.

Haven't seen any threads here with the ultimate determination of "my LiFePO4 battery spontaneously combusted and burned everything down!" - But I've seen a lot of these that had stupid user errors like LiFePO4 cells on a metal shelf with a bunch of alligator clips everywhere, or cells on a piece of plywood with no structural support that collapsed. Stuff like that is WAY more likely to cause a fire.

The charge controller is the only non-lug DC terminal in my system
Really, really hate screw-in terminals that just bite onto the wire. Really wish everyone just standardized on giving you a terminal to mount a lug on. I trust a properly crimped lug & wire to not separate way more than I do these little screw-in terminals that are common on charge controllers...
 
@hwy17, do you use a ventilation fan too ?
No, my battery box is semi-sealed, it's a truck "underbody box" so it has weatherstripping.

So I am relying on the pressure generated by the venting cell to expel the gases, I don't mind if the box remains filled with gas, I just want the bulk of it outside so it does not fill up the room.

My box has air leaks for sure though, so the venting would need to be quite spectacular like PSSSHHHHHH for it to work, for pressure to drive itself out the dryer vent. If a cell started slowly leaking pspspsssssssss, it would probably all just leak out of the box indoors.
 
Really, really hate screw-in terminals that just bite onto the wire. Really wish everyone just standardized on giving you a terminal to mount a lug on. I trust a properly crimped lug & wire to not separate way more than I do these little screw-in terminals that are common on charge controllers...
Yeah I've come to the charge controller last in my build and it's really frustrating me. Like I'm seriously considering some kind of lug mod if I can come up with one, after I get it set up first to confirm my CC isn't DOA or anything.
 
Really, really hate screw-in terminals that just bite onto the wire. Really wish everyone just standardized on giving you a terminal to mount a lug on. I trust a properly crimped lug & wire to not separate way more than I do these little screw-in terminals that are common on charge controllers...
That’s why you use ferrules
 
That’s why you use ferrules
But then you have the complication about whether the manufacturer recommends ferrules or not. For North American equipment, it's usually not included in the instructions and would be an off label use.

Phoenix contact makes the 2 awg terminal on my CC

Phoenix contact makes 2 awg ferrules:


But my manual does not say to use them. I haven't decided if I think I know better.
 
WARNING - Chatgpt answers below - but they do align with other research I have done on th subject

Q - What gasses are generate when a LiFePO4 battery vents?

A -
When a LiFePO4 (Lithium Iron Phosphate) battery vents, it typically releases a mixture of gases. These gases can include:

1. **Carbon Dioxide (CO2):** A common byproduct of the chemical reactions occurring within the battery.

2. **Carbon Monoxide (CO):** Can be produced in small amounts, especially if the battery is overheating or if there is a short circuit.

3. **Hydrogen (H2):** May be released if the battery's electrolyte decomposes.

4. **Phosphorus Oxyfluoride (POF3):** Can be produced if the battery's phosphate-based cathode material decomposes.

5. **Lithium Fluoride (LiF):** May be formed and released as a gas or vapor, particularly if the battery is subjected to extreme abuse conditions.

6. **Various Organic Compounds:** Depending on the specific electrolyte and binder materials used in the battery, various organic vapors can be released.

It's important to note that venting is a sign of battery failure and can pose safety risks. The gases released can be flammable, toxic, or both, so proper ventilation and safety measures should be in place when handling or using LiFePO4 batteries.


Q - how hazardous are these to humans and pets?

A -
The gases released when a LiFePO4 battery vents can be hazardous to both humans and pets, depending on the concentration and exposure duration. Here's a breakdown of the potential hazards:

1. **Carbon Dioxide (CO2):** In small amounts, CO2 is not harmful. However, in high concentrations, it can lead to respiratory distress and, in extreme cases, suffocation.

2. **Carbon Monoxide (CO):** CO is a highly toxic gas that can be lethal. It binds to hemoglobin in the blood, reducing the blood's ability to carry oxygen. Exposure can lead to headaches, dizziness, nausea, confusion, and in severe cases, death.

3. **Hydrogen (H2):** Hydrogen is not toxic, but it is highly flammable. Accumulation of hydrogen gas can create an explosion risk if ignited.

4. **Phosphorus Oxyfluoride (POF3):** This is a toxic and corrosive gas. Inhalation can cause respiratory irritation, coughing, and shortness of breath. Long-term exposure can lead to more severe respiratory problems.

5. **Lithium Fluoride (LiF):** While not typically a major concern in its gaseous form, any particulate matter from LiF can irritate the respiratory system if inhaled.

6. **Various Organic Compounds:** The toxicity of these compounds varies depending on their specific nature. Some may cause irritation of the eyes, skin, and respiratory system, while others could have more severe toxic effects.

To minimize risks, it's crucial to handle LiFePO4 batteries according to manufacturer guidelines and to ensure proper ventilation in areas where batteries are used or stored. In the event of battery venting, evacuate the area and seek fresh air immediately. If symptoms of exposure occur, seek medical attention promptly.
 
But then you have the complication about whether the manufacturer recommends ferrules or not. For North American equipment, it's usually not included in the instructions and would be an off label use.

Phoenix contact makes the 2 awg terminal on my CC

Phoenix contact makes 2 awg ferrules:


But my manual does not say to use them. I haven't decided if I think I know better.


Ferrule use really depends on the design of the screw terminal.

Those with a screw that pushes down a cup shaped wedge always use bare wire. The cup shaped wedge gathers the wires and pushes evenly without letting them be damaged or slide past the slides.

Those with spring connectors all use bare wire, but not all are designed for stranded and solid. They can be designed for one or both depending on the MFG. This is the type Victron uses in the MPPT that it calls out bare stranded wire. This is also how the WAGO connectors work for solid wires except they have a leaver to press verse totally spring loaded.

The bare stranded terminal blocks go into the spring and push the spring up and contact the whole wires and then it pushes them flatter to get a larger contact spot. This type typically has a screw on the top to improve the pressure.

The ones for solid wire then to have a hook that faces the wires and bites into the wire. The bites into the wire would damage stranded but not solid.

Those with just a screw like is typically found in a breaker not designed for 2 wires is made for solid wire and it is preferable to use ferrules when using stranded wire. Note, those breakers designed for two wires have a plate it pushes down but they are still designed for solid wire so ferrules are still preferred.

Victron MPPT have both types of terminal blocks. In their manual they explicitly call out the type of wire in their equipment manuals.
 
Ferrule use really depends on the design of the screw terminal.

Those with a screw that pushes down a cup shaped wedge always use bare wire. The cup shaped wedge gathers the wires and pushes evenly without letting them be damaged or slide past the slides.

Those with spring connectors all use bare wire, but not all are designed for stranded and solid. They can be designed for one or both depending on the MFG. This is the type Victron uses in the MPPT that it calls out bare stranded wire. This is also how the WAGO connectors work for solid wires except they have a leaver to press verse totally spring loaded.

The bare stranded terminal blocks go into the spring and push the spring up and contact the whole wires and then it pushes them flatter to get a larger contact spot. This type typically has a screw on the top to improve the pressure.

The ones for solid wire then to have a hook that faces the wires and bites into the wire. The bites into the wire would damage stranded but not solid.

Those with just a screw like is typically found in a breaker not designed for 2 wires is made for solid wire and it is preferable to use ferrules when using stranded wire. Note, those breakers designed for two wires have a plate it pushes down but they are still designed for solid wire so ferrules are still preferred.

Victron MPPT have both types of terminal blocks. In their manual they explicitly call out the type of wire in their equipment manuals.
I think this is what I'm working with:

1712335466790.png
And I think it's just plainly not that good of a connector for a 100 amp sustained load. Fine strand wire is too likely to become loose in it and ferrules reduce the contact patch. I will probably end up going with a ferrule, and I might try using the screw terminal to sort of crush the ferrule into a form fit in place.

But I think if we looked up at the more intensely designed systems like grid scale ESS, EVs, Tesla Powerwalls, etc. we would find not one fine stranded wire ever connected to a screw down terminal in those products. I believe it's an irredeemable compromise.
 
I'm fairly new at this, BUT if I were to take the sky is falling state of mind I don't believe I would have been installing a solar setup in the first place.
I have read the horror stories and watched the videos of the battery fires. That is the reason I went with NAME BRAND rack batteries like SOK and EG4. These batteries (as far as I know) haven't had and reports of fires because of regular use. Please correct me if I am wrong. I keep my batteries and charge controllers in my garage connected to my home. I check everything daily (sometimes several times a day) except when I'm away.
My belief is the LifeP04 battery is one of the safest. Again please correct me if I am wrong.
Solar since June of 2018.
 
I think this is what I'm working with:

View attachment 207284
And I think it's just plainly not that good of a connector for a 100 amp sustained load. Fine strand wire is too likely to become loose in it and ferrules reduce the contact patch. I will probably end up going with a ferrule, and I might try using the screw terminal to sort of crush the ferrule into a form fit in place.

But I think if we looked up at the more intensely designed systems like grid scale ESS, EVs, Tesla Powerwalls, etc. we would find not one fine stranded wire ever connected to a screw down terminal in those products. I believe it's an irredeemable compromise.
That sort is ideal for a ferrule using a square shape. The hex and penta shapes don't make as good a contact patch.

I forgot about that, ferrule crimpers come in different shapes and different ones are better for different terminals.

And that assumes quality ferrules that are long enough to bottom out when inserted into the terminal block and thin enough to deform when pressed in it.

I learned this one the hard way from the cheap amazon ferrules they are shorter and thicker because it is cheaper to make them that way. And if crimping a ferrule on a high amperage wire you either use a lug crimper or a ferrule crimper made for the large sized ferrules. Downside is the shape of the lug crimper may not be ideal.
 
I'm fairly new at this, BUT if I were to take the sky is falling state of mind I don't believe I would have been installing a solar setup in the first place.
I have read the horror stories and watched the videos of the battery fires. That is the reason I went with NAME BRAND rack batteries like SOK and EG4. These batteries (as far as I know) haven't had and reports of fires because of regular use. Please correct me if I am wrong. I keep my batteries and charge controllers in my garage connected to my home. I check everything daily (sometimes several times a day) except when I'm away.
My belief is the LifeP04 battery is one of the safest. Again please correct me if I am wrong.
Solar since June of 2018.

You are correct - sticking to the brand name and pre-built stuff is safer than some of the other junk. But, you still have to go back and check/retorque the bolts/screws/connections and give a tug to the wires to see if everything is secure. Preferably shut everything down before doing this since there is always a risk of shorts, shocks, or sparks if you to manage pull something loose.

And assuming the person that installed the gear did a good job on all the connections. If anything is hot when running best to shut it down and check that connection.
 
That sort is ideal for a ferrule using a square shape. The hex and penta shapes don't make as good a contact patch.

I forgot about that, ferrule crimpers come in different shapes and different ones are better for different terminals.
See these sort of nuances don't strike me as appropriate for high amperage DC. Ferrules to me are something the german technician uses when he wires up the controls system on an industrial machine. Does AT&T ever use ferrules on fine strand wire in their 48v telco systems? I doubt it. Every time I see their work it's lug city.
 
See these sort of nuances don't strike me as appropriate for high amperage DC. Ferrules to me are something the german technician uses when he wires up the controls system on an industrial machine. Does AT&T ever use ferrules on fine strand wire in their 48v telco systems? I doubt it. Every time I see their work it's lug city.

Well, I haven't been in a CO battery room in years but back then it was all lugs and large cables.

And no, I don't like the ferrules much either with all the different types and chances of making a mistake. But we are left to the mercy of the vendors as long as we use their equipment. And this is another reason the knock-off relabels suck a lot of the time. No engineering goes into making the box cheaper so they tend to fail quicker or burn up and be a hazard.

I have seen some terminal block to lug converters from time to time, but I have not used them. From what I can tell it is a screw through a piece of plated copper then the strip sticks into the terminal. I can see they would work well for the straight screw type, but not for the others.
 
This is what I ordered from ali...
Will find out when I use it instead of ferrules.
Those may work if you use the right sized wire (should have all strands inside the loop and little to no extra space). And from the look of them the crimper should be one that presses down in the center and rolls the edges in. Watch the video in the ad. Seems like rather than just punching the middle down it should press the edges as well

I never seem to trust the quality of anything from ALIexpress personally, but hopefully they are good. Caveat - if you are doing something grid-tied and they aren't UL listed they won't pass.
 
I have seen some terminal block to lug converters from time to time, but I have not used them. From what I can tell it is a screw through a piece of plated copper then the strip sticks into the terminal. I can see they would work well for the straight screw type, but not for the others.
Yeah I'm ok with it while I've got my CC under paneled, but I have thoughts about significant over paneling it in the future. If it's gonna be running floored at 100 amps I might think about attempting some kind of lug mod.
 
I think this is what I'm working with:

View attachment 207284
And I think it's just plainly not that good of a connector for a 100 amp sustained load. Fine strand wire is too likely to become loose in it and ferrules reduce the contact patch. I will probably end up going with a ferrule, and I might try using the screw terminal to sort of crush the ferrule into a form fit in place.

But I think if we looked up at the more intensely designed systems like grid scale ESS, EVs, Tesla Powerwalls, etc. we would find not one fine stranded wire ever connected to a screw down terminal in those products. I believe it's an irredeemable compromise.
Yeah, that’s not the best connector but it’s what you have to work with on an increasing amount of imported gear. This article discusses square ferrule crimpers and might be worth looking in to.

 
Code for ESS indoors allows it in closet or garage, not living area. Walls to have fire resistant materials. Smoke alarm, or for place like garage where not a listed application, heat alarm wired into home's smoke alarm system.

I think something which vents to exterior rather than interior would be good.

Make sure that a conflagration started at the batteries won't block path to exits.

I'd think you could go a bit overboard, fire rated door etc. so it was possible for battery fire to burn itself out without spreading to rest of house.
 
Code for ESS indoors allows it in closet or garage, not living area. Walls to have fire resistant materials. Smoke alarm, or for place like garage where not a listed application, heat alarm wired into home's smoke alarm system.

I think something which vents to exterior rather than interior would be good.

Make sure that a conflagration started at the batteries won't block path to exits.

I'd think you could go a bit overboard, fire rated door etc. so it was possible for battery fire to burn itself out without spreading to rest of house.


Building code in the states is for a 4 hour burn time between the garage and the living space. This means either a double layer of sheetrock of a layer of 5/8 fire rock on the wall from the floor all the way to the roof. Any penetrations must be sealed around so the fire can't follow a wire through. This also means a steel door between.

In more modern national building code there is also a requirement for a steel door with a self closing hing on it. This is a requirement that was piecemeal until about 15 years ago when it was adopted nationally.

Where I live it has been code for more than 20 years and some folks get into trouble by replacing the spring loaded hinge with a regular one and then when they sell the house they have to go back the other way or it won't pass inspection.
 
WARNING - Chatgpt answers below - but they do align with other research I have done on th subject

Q - What gasses are generate when a LiFePO4 battery vents?

A -
When a LiFePO4 (Lithium Iron Phosphate) battery vents, it typically releases a mixture of gases. These gases can include:

1. **Carbon Dioxide (CO2):** A common byproduct of the chemical reactions occurring within the battery.

2. **Carbon Monoxide (CO):** Can be produced in small amounts, especially if the battery is overheating or if there is a short circuit.

3. **Hydrogen (H2):** May be released if the battery's electrolyte decomposes.

4. **Phosphorus Oxyfluoride (POF3):** Can be produced if the battery's phosphate-based cathode material decomposes.

5. **Lithium Fluoride (LiF):** May be formed and released as a gas or vapor, particularly if the battery is subjected to extreme abuse conditions.

6. **Various Organic Compounds:** Depending on the specific electrolyte and binder materials used in the battery, various organic vapors can be released.

It's important to note that venting is a sign of battery failure and can pose safety risks. The gases released can be flammable, toxic, or both, so proper ventilation and safety measures should be in place when handling or using LiFePO4 batteries.


Q - how hazardous are these to humans and pets?

A -
The gases released when a LiFePO4 battery vents can be hazardous to both humans and pets, depending on the concentration and exposure duration. Here's a breakdown of the potential hazards:

1. **Carbon Dioxide (CO2):** In small amounts, CO2 is not harmful. However, in high concentrations, it can lead to respiratory distress and, in extreme cases, suffocation.

2. **Carbon Monoxide (CO):** CO is a highly toxic gas that can be lethal. It binds to hemoglobin in the blood, reducing the blood's ability to carry oxygen. Exposure can lead to headaches, dizziness, nausea, confusion, and in severe cases, death.

3. **Hydrogen (H2):** Hydrogen is not toxic, but it is highly flammable. Accumulation of hydrogen gas can create an explosion risk if ignited.

4. **Phosphorus Oxyfluoride (POF3):** This is a toxic and corrosive gas. Inhalation can cause respiratory irritation, coughing, and shortness of breath. Long-term exposure can lead to more severe respiratory problems.

5. **Lithium Fluoride (LiF):** While not typically a major concern in its gaseous form, any particulate matter from LiF can irritate the respiratory system if inhaled.

6. **Various Organic Compounds:** The toxicity of these compounds varies depending on their specific nature. Some may cause irritation of the eyes, skin, and respiratory system, while others could have more severe toxic effects.

To minimize risks, it's crucial to handle LiFePO4 batteries according to manufacturer guidelines and to ensure proper ventilation in areas where batteries are used or stored. In the event of battery venting, evacuate the area and seek fresh air immediately. If symptoms of exposure occur, seek medical attention promptly.
Typical AI response, not wrong, but not useful
 
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