Hybrid Inverter and Grid Tied Solar questions

[1201]

You can easily put a Micro Air soft start on the AC. I’m running my 4 ton with a 6000XP which saves a ton over a hybrid. Also, you don’t have to power the whole house and charge an EV on the off grid inverter. He has a subpanel already that he can tie into. I’m running a subpanel, pool pump, AC, blower fan, and have the microwave and dishwasher tied in for when the grid goes down. Of course every one’s usage is different but if measure it with a clamp meter or Emporia Vue, you can make a wise selection on critical loads and where the big savings are on one’s utility bill. Our power went out on the 4th for four hours. Most of the homes around us have whole home generators they did not miss a beat. We did not either and far a fraction of the up front cost and expenses. In the greater Houston area, you just need AC in the summer and be able to keep the fridge(s) and freezer(s) going and a few lights in case of an extended power outage.

Hybrids are nice. If someone gave me one, I’d install it but I would not pay the premium for it. But that’s just me. Your situation could be different.

It looks like “Offthewall” has a similar perspective to me on post #47. You might want to disagree strongly with him

I understand your point that hybrids are expensive. This was true last year when 18kpv was $5k and 6000xp was 1500. Now there are several hybrids in the $2500 range.


Do you understand my point that with an off grid inverter, anything that's not connected to that inverter is always on grid?

In the ops case he has a free night's plan so those loads not on the off grid inverter are going to be consuming very expensive power during the day vs using a hybrid inverter where he can use all available power for all circuits?

Is your have to install two or three easy starts, are your really saving money over a hybrid?

 

[woe]

I understand your point that hybrids are expensive. This was true last year when 18kpv was $5k and 6000xp was 1500. Now there are several hybrids in the $2500 range.


Do you understand my point that with an off grid inverter, anything that's not connected to that inverter is always on grid?

In the ops case he has a free night's plan so those loads not on the off grid inverter are going to be consuming very expensive power during the day vs using a hybrid inverter where he can use all available power for all circuits?

Is your have to install two or three easy starts, are your really saving money over a hybrid?

Thank you @1201 and @bhbaker220 . This discussion has been very helpful to me.

I already installed an ez start on my 5tn AC brought the start from a out 90A in my test to about 29A. It's rated at 135LRA. I did then as I have been using a 12kw generator (closer to 8kw running on NG.

@1201 is right. Feeding the grid panel from my solar is absolutely needed for my case. My daytime usage is almost entirely covered by solar even on very cloudy days like yesterday. See attached.

It may seem silly since my power usage off the batteries will be so minimal but there is a reason (stupid or not) in my head.

When summer hits the AC will run non stop and my daytime usage will be higher in cloudy days. And with my free nights plan my daytime cost is very VERY high. 33c/KwH all in. Anything I can do to reduce that will be good. I don't know exactly the numbers will pan out in the summer as I just switched to the free nights (and changed it usage pattern) in January. We also only installed the pool in October so don't have an idea how that will affect costs too.

I also know I'm going to be kicked out my free nights plan in 2 years and hopefully will be able to find another. But this also gives me the baseline to easily expand my batteries if I end up needing more evening usage.

@bhbaker220 I actually already have 2 x Emporia Vue's installed. 1 V2 l installed years ago and 1 V3 i just added. They are excellent but again I don't have enough historical data since changing it usage patterns to really know the numbers exactly yet. I also completely moved all the CTs when I installed the v3 so most of my historical numbers are all mixed up.

I created a spreadsheet which I import my usage numbers from smartmetertexas.com and it calculates my energy costs to within a few cents. This is what convinced me to switch to free nights. On my usage it made sense of I could move 60% of my usage to the evening. Since Jan I've been about to move 89.3% to evening. I'm really trying to get to 90% (for no real reason) before the weather heats up.

 

[1201]

@woe

The growatt sph 10000 is $2500 at signature solar. Lv, $1k less than the ruixu.

It's confirmed that ac coupling works.

Why not this one?

Growatt 10kW Hybrid Inverter | SPH 10000TL-HU-US

Discover the Growatt SPH 10000TL-HU-US 10KW Hybrid Inverter. This high-efficiency inverter supports 120/240Vac output, configurable battery charging, and versatile compatibility with grid or generator power. Features include smart battery charging, advanced monitoring with WIFI/4G/Bluetooth...

signaturesolar.com

 

[bhbaker220]

I understand your point. My suggestion would be to look at more than one option. Certainly, one of those is swapping out the inverter to a hybrid with batteries. Another would be to continue to run the grid-tied unit, but utilize some of the PV to power the subpanel with an off-grid inverter with batteries or perhaps just use the grid-tied AC (via AC Coupling to an off-grid inverter) to charge batteries on an off-grid inverter powering the subpanel (and perhaps moving more loads over to the subpanel). Given that he has free electricity at night, he could look at charging the batteries at night and utilizing the electricity from PV and batteries during the day. If he has multiple AC units, he could look at an inverter with a higher surge rating (12000XP can start a 5 ton unit).

I say analyze multiple options and chose what you think is the most optimum for your specific case. Again, most of our own situations is unique.

 

[Capt Bill]

Wow, had no clue that SS was now selling the Solis S6, great to have more retail options.

Running HV is much simpler for high power than 48V, most don't understand the true costs for 400-800 amp battery banks until they build one, it isn't cheap, or easy to work with.

I added 50kWh recently for ~5k USD, so the hit for HV is just the initial battery, parallel more as needed and they don't require communication's to work as the primary battery will proportionally provide energy and SOC will be close enough for the pack.

Re: I added 50kWh for $5k USD: I must be missing something. Was that a typo? If not, I want to know more.

 

[Offthewall]

Yes I certainly am looking for AC Coupling.

I need 12kw output so was looking at the EG4 18kpv. But wanted to spend a little less if possible. I need to look more into the Schneider but I was under the impression they were more expensive.

Cam

No need in the EG4 18kpv, the 12000xp would be a better choice for you and cheaper.

 

[Capt Bill]

Hello All,

I installed a 14.8kw Grid Tied Enphase solar system in 2019. It's been great but generation buy back has really taken a hit in Texas to the point it's no longer worth it.

I'm pretty close to pulling the trigger on installing a Hybrid Inverter and some batteries so I have somewhere to put the excess power I produce. I also have switched to a Free Nights plans which has been great as I have moved my EV Charging and Pool pump to run during the free times and I've been able to move almost 90% of my usage (in winter) to the free period. I know in summer in the Houston Area the AC will change this a lot. So I'm hoping the battery will help offset this and maybe even be able to get me a negligible power bill.

And of course I want to be able to run my critical loads if the grid goes down which has happened a number of times in recent years.

Cost is a pretty big factor for me as I'm trying to justify this to my boss (wife) by cost savings.

My hope is to have Solar and Battery run all my power requirements during the day, and free nights to cover me in the evenings - while I charge my car run the pool pump and charge the solar battery.

So to my questions.
After some research I am learning towards the RUiXU RX-12K Hybrid inverter. I was looking at the EG4-18kPV but it's over $1K more and I'm not sure it will provide any benefit. Same as the Grid/FlexBoss combination. Is there anything with the RUiXU RX-12K I should be considering that I'm not? I was looking a the DEYE inverters as they are a great price point but then I read about the whole Sol-Ark debacle and the bricking so obviously that's not an option. Are there any other options I am not considering that I should.

I am looking at combining 8 x EcoWorthy 12V 280ah battery's. 4S2P. Giving me 26.88kWh. Sorry if this is a silly question but do I need a battery balancer for each of the 4 Series connected battery. I'm assuming an additional BMS connected to 4 batteries with built in BMS"s isn't something you should do.

I already have 2 panels one main one sub. The plan was to move all my critical loads to my sub panel and wire that to the load of the inverter. Wire the Enphase combiner to the GEN connectors, And the main panel to the Grid connectors. I assume the Grid panel will still be powered by my excess solar, is this correct? and the system will continue to sell back unused solar to the grid?

Maybe another silly question but in the event of Grid Down, with the critical load panel running off the battery, will excess solar produced power the Grid panel while we have enough solar production?

I also have a 12kw "portable" generator that I converted to Tri-Fuel that I have wired to an interlock in my main panel. My plan was to wire this to a dual throw manual transfer switch so I can switch from the Generator to Solar in the event of Grid down. This give me the ability to switch to the generator during extended outages if I run out of battery when the Sun isn't out (night or cloudy). Does anyone see any issues with this?

I think that's all I have for now. Any thoughts or advise you may have would be greatly appreciated.

TIA

Cam

I wonder about leaning on 12 v batteries for that many kWh. If you had two 14+ kWh batteries, that would be just two BMSs, and hopefully you could read all their internal values and settings too.

 

[Offthewall]

Re: I added 50kWh for $5k USD: I must be missing something. Was that a typo? If not, I want to know more.

64 LF280k for $4608 shipped + $240 for BMS + $150 for breakers and wiring…. 57.4kwh for $5k…

 

[Offthewall]

I understand your point that hybrids are expensive. This was true last year when 18kpv was $5k and 6000xp was 1500. Now there are several hybrids in the $2500 range.


Do you understand my point that with an off grid inverter, anything that's not connected to that inverter is always on grid?

In the ops case he has a free night's plan so those loads not on the off grid inverter are going to be consuming very expensive power during the day vs using a hybrid inverter where he can use all available power for all circuits?

Is your have to install two or three easy starts, are your really saving money over a hybrid?

I dont get why you say a hybrid vs off grid if the OP is NOT selling to the grid via this inverter…. 12000xp will pass thru 100amps.

 

[1201]

I dont get why you say a hybrid vs off grid if the OP is NOT selling to the grid…. 12000xp will pass thru 100amps.

Doesn't matter if op is selling or not. Or is interconnected so a hybrid is better.

As far as passing amps - to backup loads only.

Also, to use grid you are switching the grid relay in an out. There is going to be a blip and it's going to put cycles on the relay. With the hybrid the grid relay is always connected and there are no books switching between grid and battery

 

[woe]

No need in the EG4 18kpv, the 12000xp would be a better choice for you and cheaper.

The 12000XP only has an 8kw output. The 18kpv has a 12kw. The faceplate number on EG4 is the solar input number. 8kw would be lower than I'd want as I want to be able to comfortably run my AC off it.

 

[woe]

@woe

The growatt sph 10000 is $2500 at signature solar. Lv, $1k less than the ruixu.

It's confirmed that ac coupling works.

Why not this one?

Growatt 10kW Hybrid Inverter | SPH 10000TL-HU-US

Discover the Growatt SPH 10000TL-HU-US 10KW Hybrid Inverter. This high-efficiency inverter supports 120/240Vac output, configurable battery charging, and versatile compatibility with grid or generator power. Features include smart battery charging, advanced monitoring with WIFI/4G/Bluetooth...

signaturesolar.com

Thanks I'll check it out. I'm a little concerned about the 10kw output but I may be able to make it work. I'll do some reading.

 

[woe]

Doesn't matter if op is selling or not. Or is interconnected so a hybrid is better.

As far as passing amps - to backup loads only.

Also, to use grid you are switching the grid relay in an out. There is going to be a blip and it's going to put cycles on the relay. With the hybrid the grid relay is always connected and there are no books switching between grid and battery

As I plan on switching throughout the day based on solar production, the switching time needs to be small enough that devices won't notice. That's important for me.

 

[1201]

As I plan on switching throughout the day based on solar production, the switching time needs to be small enough that devices won't notice. That's important for me.

That's the beauty of the hybrid-there is no switching. The grid is permanently connected to the loads but as long as there is enough solar or battery the inverter simply injects power into the connection to reduce or zero what you're pulling from the grid. When there is not enough solar or battery it stops injecting and the grid seamlessly takes over.

With an off-grid inverter you are switching back and forth

 

[woe]

That's the beauty of the hybrid-there is no switching. The grid is permanently connected to the loads but as long as there is enough solar or battery the inverter simply injects power into the connection to reduce or zero what you're pulling from the grid. When there is not enough solar or battery it stops injecting and the grid seamlessly takes over.

With an off-grid inverter you are switching back and forth

I didn't know that. Thanks

I thought most of them quoted a small cut over time. 5-10ms which is more than fast enough. This may be when the grid goes down switching to battery.

But yes I'm pretty sure Hybrid of really the only real option for me.

 

[Offthewall]

The 12000XP only has an 8kw output. The 18kpv has a 12kw. The faceplate number on EG4 is the solar input number. 8kw would be lower than I'd want as I want to be able to comfortably run my AC off it.

Incorrect, the 12000xp has 12000watts output. The 12kpv has 8,000watts output… 2 different inverters.

 

[woe]

Incorrect, the 12000xp has 12000watts output. The 12kpv has 8,000watts output… 2 different inverters.

My mistake you're right! But it's off grid. As @1201 said, I agree all the benefits he mentioned of hybrid are needed for my requirements.

 

[1201]

I didn't know that. Thanks

I thought most of them quoted a small cut over time. 5-10ms which is more than fast enough. This may be when the grid goes down switching to battery.

Correct. That's only if the grid goes down.

 

[Offthewall]

If you look at the XW, you will need a insight home as well. PDP and conduit box is optional but makes for a cleaner install.

 

[LanePilot]

That's not the big benefit. Still, 3 cents can be better than zero cents. With off grid, when the battery is full you just lose all the potential power. Why not get the 0.03 per kWh for it?

Since the op is already connected he can support ALL loads via solar and battery. With an off grid inverter he can only support BACKUP loads and never home loads. So with interconnection he can get by with a smaller inverter and less battery and still save the same or more

I’m also in Texas with a RTW based buyback plan. My payout last month was less than 1cent/kwh. It has been steadily dropping every month due to the increasing installed base of Texas Solar. I have just switched out my two 6kw Fronius inverters for a Solis S6 11.4, and added 24.8 kwh of Pylontech HV batteries. Hoping to reap the benefits of the Solis S6 self-use mode.

 

[1201]

I’m also in Texas with a RTW based buyback plan. My payout last month was less than 1cent/kwh. It has been steadily dropping every month due to the increasing installed base of Texas Solar. I have just switched out my two 6kw Fronius inverters for a Solis S6 11.4, and added 24.8 kwh of Pylontech HV batteries. Hoping to reap the benefits of the Solis S6 self-use mode.

Having that interconnection agreement and the hybrid opens up a lot of grid arbitrage options in the future

 

[woe]

So I just jumped in. The EG4s all just went up in price due to the tariffs, and we know even if the tariffs go away prices take time to drop.

So since that happened I jumped in the RUiXU RX-12k before it goes up too. Being from China. All in $3376

I just ordered 8 x 12V Eco-Worthy 280ah batteries using the eBay coupon. Split into 2 purchases of 4 batteries to max out the coupon. All in 28.6kWh for $2895 including tax, delivered.

At that's 12kw AC output and 28.6kWh for $6270 so far which sounds pretty good. I'm hoping to keep it around $7000 all in installed. All my cable runs are short. So after tax rebate about $5k.

We'll see. Thanks everyone for your help. Now just to wait patiently for some very heavy boxes to be delivered.

 

[1201]

So I just jumped in. The EG4s all just went up in price due to the tariffs, and we know even if the tariffs go away prices take time to drop.

So since that happened I jumped in the RUiXU RX-12k before it goes up too. Being from China. All in $3376

I just ordered 8 x 12V Eco-Worthy 280ah batteries using the eBay coupon. Split info 2 purchases of 4 batteries to max out the coupon. All in 28.6kWh for $2895 including tax, delivered.

At that's 12kw AC output and 28.6kWh for $6270 so far which sounds pretty good. I'm hoping to keep it around $7000 all in installed. All my babies l cable runs are short. So after tax rebate about $5k.

We'll see. Thanks everyone for your help. Now just to wait patiently for some very heavy boxes to be delivered.

Congrats.

Please let us know how your like the rx12. It will help other prospective buyers

 

[woe]

Congrats.

Please let us know how your like the rx12. It will help other prospective buyers

I absolutely will. I was seriously considering the eg4 18kpv but it's now $5220 all in. Considered the refurb for $41 all in but my wife wasn't happy with the 2 year warranty.

 

[Offthewall]

I absolutely will. I was seriously considering the eg4 18kpv but it's now $5220 all in. Considered the refurb for $41 all in but my wife wasn't happy with the 2 year warranty.

I received my 3 XW Pro’s from RES Supply yesterday. $3899 delivered ($1250 each + $149 S/H) If I am not mistaken Schneider has a 10 year warranty when you register it.