I smell a rat...

[MurphyGuy]

Reading this article:

Wood burners cause nearly half of urban air pollution cancer risk – study

Exclusive: Wood smoke is a bigger cancer risk than pollution from vehicles, finds Athens analysis

www.theguardian.com

I'm a bit miffed that they separated petroleum based fuels (Gas and Diesel), but lumped all wood burning into one category. Almost sounds like the petroleum industry had their greedy mittens in the research somehow..

If they're going to separate petroleum fuels, then they should separate wood species as well.

Of course, we're not in Athens, we're in the USA.. We installed our wood stove back in 2010 and it had to meet emissions requirements. The stove has "after-burners".. tubes at the top of the fire box that inject preheated air and cause most of the remaining smoke particles to burn off. And while this sounds like an energy sucking device to reduce pollution like what a car has, these tubes actually make the stove more efficient and help to squeeze the last drops of energy out of the wood being burned.

 

[Bob B]

Yeah .....Wonder why we didn't have much cancer when almost everyone heated their home with wood?

Maybe it's the way wood smoke combines with glyphosate ... tongue in cheek.

 

[MurphyGuy]

Yeah .....Wonder why we didn't have much cancer when almost everyone heated their home with wood?

Maybe it's the way wood smoke combines with glyphosate ... tongue in cheek.

Probably a few attributes come into play.
1) Population density - Lower density means fewer stoves working and more area for smoke to disipate.
2) Back in the old days, life expectancy was far shorter

Interesting wiki:

History of cancer - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The first cause of cancer was identified by British surgeon Percivall Pott, who discovered in 1775 that cancer of the scrotum was a common disease among chimney sweeps. The work of other individual physicians led to various insights, but when physicians started working together they could draw firmer conclusions.

Well that's alarming...

I clean my own chimney, but I'm not exposed to the dust because its such a fast process.. The brush goes down, comes back up, and I'm done. Most of the carbon buildup resembles rice crispies and just falls into the firebox.

 

[Cdkipp]

Probably a few attributes come into play.
1) Population density - Lower density means fewer stoves working and more area for smoke to disipate.
2) Back in the old days, life expectancy was far shorter

Interesting wiki:

History of cancer - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The first cause of cancer was identified by British surgeon Percivall Pott, who discovered in 1775 that cancer of the scrotum was a common disease among chimney sweeps. The work of other individual physicians led to various insights, but when physicians started working together they could draw firmer conclusions.

Well that's alarming...

I clean my own chimney, but I'm not exposed to the dust because its such a fast process.. The brush goes down, comes back up, and I'm done. Most of the carbon buildup resembles rice crispies and just falls into the firebox.

Yes. I would speculate it is a combo of:
1.Short life expectancy
2. Our energy-efficient construction prevents ventilation.
3. population density with a higher baseline of pollutants.

You don't see cancer break the top 10 causes of death until you get in the high-income countries. https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/the-top-10-causes-of-death

 

[MurphyGuy]

Yes. I would speculate it is a combo of:
1.Short life expectancy
2. Our energy-efficient construction prevents ventilation.
3. population density with a higher baseline of pollutants.

You don't see cancer break the top 10 causes of death until you get in the high-income countries. https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/the-top-10-causes-of-death

No $hit.. I didn't know that.

Thank you sir for teaching me something today that I didn't know yesterday. very interesting.

 

[Batvette]

Yes. I would speculate it is a combo of:
1.Short life expectancy
2. Our energy-efficient construction prevents ventilation.
3. population density with a higher baseline of pollutants.

You don't see cancer break the top 10 causes of death until you get in the high-income countries. https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/the-top-10-causes-of-death

There might be other things at play there. Lower income countries have shorter life expectancies, worse health care, and are less likely to perform autopsies or even know what the cause of death actually was.

 

[McCarthy]

There might be other things at play there. Lower income countries have shorter life expectancies, worse health care, and are less likely to perform autopsies or even know what the cause of death actually was.

That applies to some 3rd world countries with other issues. The true underlaying problem in high income countries is a combination of eating unhealthy, lack of physical activities, unhealthy past times that also result in bad mental health. Folks eating processed food a lot, doing desk jobs while sitting for prolonged times, have a high risk of several serious diseases with cancer only being one of them.

Read up on the people living on the Island of Ikaria. While they don't have access to our ""great"" health care system, they also don't have access to garbage food and desk jobs. Most jobs are physical and in the outdoors, often on the farm fields. They live in average 10 years longer than the US population. Many of them work into their 80s. None of them live their lives in-front of screens, games or within social media. They are connected to nature, and not a cell phone.

Our health care system is build on profit first. Its not based on preventing health issues but managing symptoms. A healthy person makes big pharma nor the insurances complex any money. The average American citizen wastes his / her remaining 29 years with chronic health conditions.

Considering how expensive the US health care system is, its a total farce.

 

[Bob B]

That applies to some 3rd world countries with other issues. The true underlaying problem in high income countries is a combination of eating unhealthy, lack of physical activities, unhealthy past times that also result in bad mental health. Folks eating processed food a lot, doing desk jobs while sitting for prolonged times, have a high risk of several serious diseases with cancer only being one of them.

Read up on the people living on the Island of Ikaria. While they don't have access to our ""great"" health care system, they also don't have access to garbage food and desk jobs. Most jobs are physical and in the outdoors, often on the farm fields. They live in average 10 years longer than the US population. Many of them work into their 80s. None of them live their lives in-front of screens, games or within social media. They are connected to nature, and not a cell phone.

Our health care system is build on profit first. Its not based on preventing health issues but managing symptoms. A healthy person makes big pharma nor the insurances complex any money. The average American citizen wastes his / her remaining 29 years with chronic health conditions.

Considering how expensive the US health care system is, its a total farce.

The goal used to be to cure an illness ..... Now, they want to "manage" as many conditions as they can to maximize profits.

 

[noenegdod]

Considering how expensive the US health care system is, its a total farce.

Essentially nothing the "health care system" does is to care for you health. We dont have a "health care system". Its a misnomer. We have a sick care system.

 

[noenegdod]

Back on topic, there is no rat. Burning wood is something that an infinitesimally small number of people that burn wood can actually do well. Having the right appliance helps but you still actually have to understand what is going on, which basically no one does.

The "afterburners" described in the OP are simply supply over fire air. Over fire air is required to complete combusting unburnt volatiles (aka smoke as well as smaller hydrocarbons that are not visible). The issue with wood stoves is that unlike an internal combustion engine that has electronic monitoring and control on basically a cycle to cycle basis, the moron that filled the firebox is also in control of the ongoing combustion process and he/she is busy with other things. It does not matter what species of wood is being burnt, it will not be burnt well. There is no rat. No one is willing to spend the money on a wood stove that requires you to buy fuel that has been prepared properly and has the required monitoring and control systems in place to ensure a consistently good burn. Then require service calls and maintenance to keep them operating in an acceptable range.

Before anyone says but but but pellet stoves......

Pellet stoves are a step in the right direction with prepared fuels. After that though they rely on averages and deteriorating machinery, inconsistent fuel delivery due to pellets binding and dislodging as the auger drives (yes, the hour delivery average is probably spot on but the second to second delivery is not, and that matters). Introducing 1 pellet at a time has a significantly lower influence on combustion chamber emissions than adding 4 or 5 all at once.

I am yet to see a wood or pellet stove that has an O2 sensor and any kind of combustion air control system. Then atmospheric conditions come into play. What happens when the stove is going and someone turns on the dryer and/or range hood while they are cooking? Is there enough air getting into the house to not have an impact on the stove?

Burning gasoline well has challenges, burning diesel well has a lot more challenges. The world has thrown a huge amount of technology at these two problems. Burning wood well has significantly more challenges and for all intents and purposes, we are still just burning it in a box.

The point should be clear by now. You dont burn wood well, yes, I am talking to you. You try, but you are not burning it well.

 

[Batvette]

That applies to some 3rd world countries with other issues. The true underlaying problem in high income countries is a combination of eating unhealthy, lack of physical activities, unhealthy past times that also result in bad mental health. Folks eating processed food a lot, doing desk jobs while sitting for prolonged times, have a high risk of several serious diseases with cancer only being one of them.

Read up on the people living on the Island of Ikaria. While they don't have access to our ""great"" health care system, they also don't have access to garbage food and desk jobs. Most jobs are physical and in the outdoors, often on the farm fields. They live in average 10 years longer than the US population. Many of them work into their 80s. None of them live their lives in-front of screens, games or within social media. They are connected to nature, and not a cell phone.

Our health care system is build on profit first. Its not based on preventing health issues but managing symptoms. A healthy person makes big pharma nor the insurances complex any money. The average American citizen wastes his / her remaining 29 years with chronic health conditions.

Considering how expensive the US health care system is, its a total farce.

Since preventing health issues usually comes with the attachments of dictating and controlling peoples' lifestyles, what else can they do? Do you want your health care provider to limit you to one cookie a day to prevent diabetes? Should people be forced to run 4 laps a day, or should cheeseburgers be outlawed, to reduce heart disease?
People are gonna do what they do, all the health care industry can do is pick up the resulting pieces.
What about all the young adreneline junkies out there posting go pro videos on youtube with mishaps on everything from skateboards to wingsuits and freestyle motocross. Its not uncommon to get six month stays in the hospital for a broken body.
Covered by socialized health care but the average person cant get an appointment to see a doctor for minor problems.
Saw a channel with an amateur motocross racer who became paralyzed from the waist down after a racing accident, amazingly all his viewers are cheering his construction of a special motorcycle to continue his dream and be the first parapalegic stunt rider to perform a backflip.
Loser didnt learn his lesson the first time, I wouldnt care but everyone elses premiums subsidize his stupidity.
And yet they banned lawn darts, best toy we ever had. Nothing put a spark in grandmas stride at the fourth of july party like flinging one of those across the yard.

 

[BMcL]

Back on topic, there is no rat. Burning wood is something that an infinitesimally small number of people that burn wood can actually do well. Having the right appliance helps but you still actually have to understand what is going on, which basically no one does.

The "afterburners" described in the OP are simply supply over fire air. Over fire air is required to complete combusting unburnt volatiles (aka smoke as well as smaller hydrocarbons that are not visible). The issue with wood stoves is that unlike an internal combustion engine that has electronic monitoring and control on basically a cycle to cycle basis, the moron that filled the firebox is also in control of the ongoing combustion process and he/she is busy with other things. It does not matter what species of wood is being burnt, it will not be burnt well. There is no rat. No one is willing to spend the money on a wood stove that requires you to buy fuel that has been prepared properly and has the required monitoring and control systems in place to ensure a consistently good burn. Then require service calls and maintenance to keep them operating in an acceptable range.

Before anyone says but but but pellet stoves......

Pellet stoves are a step in the right direction with prepared fuels. After that though they rely on averages and deteriorating machinery, inconsistent fuel delivery due to pellets binding and dislodging as the auger drives (yes, the hour delivery average is probably spot on but the second to second delivery is not, and that matters). Introducing 1 pellet at a time has a significantly lower influence on combustion chamber emissions than adding 4 or 5 all at once.

I am yet to see a wood or pellet stove that has an O2 sensor and any kind of combustion air control system. Then atmospheric conditions come into play. What happens when the stove is going and someone turns on the dryer and/or range hood while they are cooking? Is there enough air getting into the house to not have an impact on the stove?

Burning gasoline well has challenges, burning diesel well has a lot more challenges. The world has thrown a huge amount of technology at these two problems. Burning wood well has significantly more challenges and for all intents and purposes, we are still just burning it in a box.

The point should be clear by now. You dont burn wood well, yes, I am talking to you. You try, but you are not burning it well.

You are exactly right ! It's very difficult to burn wood efficiently.
But does efficiency matter if you can do it safely ? That's the main thing to me.
The "cancer study" is bogus IMHO. People who use wood heat live in rural areas.
This study just doesn't apply to America.

 

[Cdkipp]

Since preventing health issues usually comes with the attachments of dictating and controlling peoples' lifestyles, what else can they do? Do you want your health care provider to limit you to one cookie a day to prevent diabetes? Should people be forced to run 4 laps a day, or should cheeseburgers be outlawed, to reduce heart disease?
People are gonna do what they do, all the health care industry can do is pick up the resulting pieces.
What about all the young adreneline junkies out there posting go pro videos on youtube with mishaps on everything from skateboards to wingsuits and freestyle motocross. Its not uncommon to get six month stays in the hospital for a broken body.
Covered by socialized health care but the average person cant get an appointment to see a doctor for minor problems.
Saw a channel with an amateur motocross racer who became paralyzed from the waist down after a racing accident, amazingly all his viewers are cheering his construction of a special motorcycle to continue his dream and be the first parapalegic stunt rider to perform a backflip.
Loser didnt learn his lesson the first time, I wouldnt care but everyone elses premiums subsidize his stupidity.
And yet they banned lawn darts, best toy we ever had. Nothing put a spark in grandmas stride at the fourth of july party like flinging one of those across the yard.

The US has had extremely effective vaccination campaigns and public health campaigns in the past including anti smoking. It is doable. What we are seeing is the result of polarization, misinformation, politicalization and the absolute worst of the US health care system. The US can keep a guy alive on ECMO for months and then replace his lungs but they can’t communicate an honest and coherent public health policy to protect the vast majority of the population and prevent the collapse of our health care system.

 

[Batvette]

You are exactly right ! It's very difficult to burn wood efficiently.
But does efficiency matter if you can do it safely ? That's the main thing to me.

If you have a dead tree or one blown down laying on your property who cares about efficiency? Thats the way it worked on our 5 acres when I was a kid. We had live oak, pine, and cedar trees. Every year a number of them were attacked by bark beetles and cut down or blown over by storms, dad cut em into rounds they dried by late summer and I split it into firewood and stacked it and covered it with tarps. Splitting the oak in the days before power splitters was extreme labor for a 12 yo boy and often dangerous.
Every house in the valley we lived in had smoke coming out of the chimneys and if there was a saturday or sunday when you didnt hear the sound of a chainsaw in the distance I dont remember it.
Is there a battery powered chainsaw that can cut rounds out of 36" wet live oak? Thats another thread...

 

[Batvette]

The US has had extremely effective vaccination campaigns and public health campaigns in the past including anti smoking. It is doable. What we are seeing is the result of polarization, misinformation, politicalization and the absolute worst of the US health care system. The US can keep a guy alive on ECMO for months and then replace his lungs but they can’t communicate an honest and coherent public health policy to protect the vast majority of the population and prevent the collapse of our health care system.

LOL, nearly everyone I know is still smoking. (I never started)

 

[Cdkipp]

LOL, nearly everyone I know is still smoking. (I never started)

Nevertheless, smoking in the US population has declined by 66% sine the anti smoking campaign began.

 

[noenegdod]

You are exactly right ! It's very difficult to burn wood efficiently.
But does efficiency matter if you can do it safely ? That's the main thing to me.
The "cancer study" is bogus IMHO. People who use wood heat live in rural areas.
This study just doesn't apply to America.

I never said anything at all about efficiency. Wood stoves are a complete fail at efficiency. Some manufactures claim efficiency as high as 80% but you will never get there. You are doing well if you are actually getting in the 50% range.

Efficiency has nothing to do with the topic of this thread though. The OP and the post you quoted was regarding "tail pipe" emissions.

No one that knows anything at all about combustion would ever say the tail pipe emissions of a wood stove are "good" relative to the tail pipe emissions of a modern vehicle.

To be clear, I am not supporting the findings of the paper in the OP. I am just saying that wood burning emissions are horrific when compared to anything that has had 20th century tech applied to it.

Im not going to get into a philosophical internet argument over what doing it "safely" means. If it means you managed to light a fire and not burn you house down, and your content with that than great. I personally have walked across my street and had a chat with a neighbor about his chimney emissions. He was dismissive and after I made his life as uncomfortable as I possibly could for the next year and made it clear as to why, he finally decided to stop burning wet wood and split it down so it would actually burn instead of smoldering in his fire place. I had three people thank me for it, including him. He was shocked that he didnt have to clean his chimney for the past 4 years not to mention giving the neighborhood a brake from his chimney smoke.

 

[MurphyGuy]

As part of our prepping activities, I built a stainless steel wood gassifier. Its made from a stainless steel 55 gallon drum, stainless tubing, etc.

I'm pretty sure its efficiency is up in the high 85% to 90% range, but it takes around 20 minutes to get there.

The wood gassifier is far more efficient than a wood stove, and even approaches modern day natural gas furnaces.

 

[noenegdod]

As part of our prepping activities, I built a stainless steel wood gassifier. Its made from a stainless steel 55 gallon drum, stainless tubing, etc.

I'm pretty sure its efficiency is up in the high 85% to 90% range, but it takes around 20 minutes to get there.

The wood gassifier is far more efficient than a wood stove, and even approaches modern day natural gas furnaces.

You cant give a wood gasifier an efficiency rating. It is a device that consumes a small amount of the wood that is fed to it to produce heat, to pyrolyze the remaining fuel and water into smaller, gaseous molecules but there is also heavier molecules that will need to be condensed out if you are going to use it in an internal combustion engine.

Gasification, if used to produce wood gas to fuel a proper furnace, and the waste heat from the gasifier was captured to heat the building as well, could result in both very good combustion as well as efficiency. However, you have substantially leveled up complexity, cost and required knowledge. Fuel preparation also requires far more attention. Unless you are planning to run an ICE, gasification is pointless. There are far easier ways to produce heat with wood.

 

[MurphyGuy]

You cant give a wood gasifier an efficiency rating. It is a device that consumes a small amount of the wood that is fed to it to produce heat, to pyrolyze the remaining fuel and water into smaller, gaseous molecules but there is also heavier molecules that will need to be condensed out if you are going to use it in an internal combustion engine.

Gasification, if used to produce wood gas to fuel a proper furnace, and the waste heat from the gasifier was captured to heat the building as well, could result in both very good combustion as well as efficiency. However, you have substantially leveled up complexity, cost and required knowledge. Fuel preparation also requires far more attention. Unless you are planning to run an ICE, gasification is pointless. There are far easier ways to produce heat with wood.

Running an engine like a generator is only one use for the gas.. I can feed the gas into my home's natural gas piping and the furnace and water heater, as well as the stove, run just fine on it.

It is not a perfect solution by any means.. It takes time to bring it up to temperatures and you have to break the wood down into smaller chuncks. Really, picking up small branches and twigs kind of works even better.

Very little heat is wasted.. my chamber is insulated with 2 inches of ceramic wool.. And if I needed, a small modification would allow me to heat water directly from the cooling system. It's more efficient than a wood stove for sure, but is a magnitude more complex.. not a perfect solution.