I would have not locked the thread, even if there are personal attacks against me.

svetz

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... I think the thread should not have been locked unless it got really out of control....
You'd have to look at the deleted/edited posts and quantity both before and after the initial warnings to decide if I made the right call or not.

But I would appreciate an up or down vote with no ambiguity .... otherwise I'll be worse than useless to you as moderator from this point forward... everything will be challenged.

...Personally, I would have not locked the thread, even if there are personal attacks against me.
<sigh>

My crystal ball says that statement bodes ill if you want to keep the "fudge yous" and racial slurs out of the forums. Because if Will's okay with personal attacks then they're entitled to make them and everyone else will have to lump it and stay silent if they don't like it.

From my experience, most of the people on the forum won't keep silent, they launch back in kind and the thread goes to hell.
 

noenegdod

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Here is the problem:

Instead of being objective, you took it personally, which is hard not to do but as a moderator you should have handed it over to a moderator that was not personally involved. You should not have locked the the thread, period.

Then you went swinging your c@$k around trying to show everyone how big it was. You moved my post and started a thread as if I had made it which if I had not gone in edited it and made it clear I had not made the thread, would have made me look absolutely pointless and retarded.
 
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Bob B

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The only problem I have with edited threads is that they are sometimes edited without the knowledge of the person who made the post.
It's not very often that I go back and read previous posts in a thread ... and if one of my posts were edited or deleted, I think I should be informed of that with the reason why ... and given a chance to respond.
I realize that is going to make the job of the moderator much harder, but it only seems fair.

I don't envy the job of the moderators and won't go around bad mouthing them in a thread .... even if I think they are wrong .... I may message them offline, but think doing it in an open thread undermines their authority.
If they are posting an opinion in a thread ... which isn't an official moderator opinion ... I have no problem disagreeing with them.

I think the thread that was locked was out of control .... and I reported the thread to moderator attention myself. As has been stated .... others did that as well.
I personally like to "debate" things ..... When the other person makes personal attacks instead of debating the subject in a respectful way ..... that is why we need moderators.
A forum that includes members from all over the world coming from all different kinds of backgrounds ...is going to have disagreements.
Sometimes, people have an ego so large that they are enraged by anyone who would dare to challenge their opinion. Narcissism is a real thing.

So .... I think moderators are necessary. Posts sometimes have to be removed, but I think people should be notified of that. If the persons can't then have a civil discussion with the moderator about that post .... they should be booted off the forum.
 

grizzzman

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"Narcissism is a real thing." LOL!! Yep.
 

mrzed001

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The only problem I have with edited threads is that they are sometimes edited without the knowledge of the person who made the post.
It's not very often that I go back and read previous posts in a thread ... and if one of my posts were edited or deleted, I think I should be informed of that with the reason why ... and given a chance to respond.
I realize that is going to make the job of the moderator much harder, but it only seems fair.

I don't envy the job of the moderators and won't go around bad mouthing them in a thread .... even if I think they are wrong .... I may message them offline, but think doing it in an open thread undermines their authority.
If they are posting an opinion in a thread ... which isn't an official moderator opinion ... I have no problem disagreeing with them.

I think the thread that was locked was out of control .... and I reported the thread to moderator attention myself. As has been stated .... others did that as well.
I personally like to "debate" things ..... When the other person makes personal attacks instead of debating the subject in a respectful way ..... that is why we need moderators.
A forum that includes members from all over the world coming from all different kinds of backgrounds ...is going to have disagreements.
Sometimes, people have an ego so large that they are enraged by anyone who would dare to challenge their opinion. Narcissism is a real thing.

So .... I think moderators are necessary. Posts sometimes have to be removed, but I think people should be notified of that. If the persons can't then have a civil discussion with the moderator about that post .... they should be booted off the forum.

You are notified if one of your post is edited.
In the bell icon on top of the page will be an alert for that.
I know ... and I thank svetz for editing one of my post because I know it was too direct. (and I did thank him in the topic too)

I also like debates. The logical collision of arguments and counter arguments. Also like to do brainstorming (part of my job).
This things are productive. This points forward, gets results. The base of all scientific and technological progression.
And the most important thing in a good mood debate (besides to bring facts and proof from what you say is true) ... to understand the others opinion ... to be ready for a consensus ... to let the arguments convince you (yes you can be wrong, no shame in saying you are right you convinced me :) ).

But many people only does quarrel. Goes off topic, attacks the other person (and not the other persons argument).
Totally contra productive. No good comes from that, no consensus, no step forward, no results.
And on that point yes a moderator is good to step in and stop it. I have no problem with that. I want that.
Many times people do not realize what they are saying (and many times they do; or do it intentionally to harm) ... even a simple line can be harsh, attacking, or even in the area of cyberbullying.
None of them should be allowed ... not against a user, not against a moderator.
I support strong moderation and to remove/rewrite any attacks against any person.

This is a good mood technical self-support group and needs to stay that way ... I think ... but anyone can try to convince me on the opposite :)
 

Bob B

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You are notified if one of your post is edited.
In the bell icon on top of the page will be an alert for that.
I know ... and I thank svetz for editing one of my post because I know it was too direct. (and I did thank him in the topic too)
Didn't know that ..... I'm too much in the habit of just relying on emails or messages .... and sometimes look at reactions.
Now I'm gonna have too look thru all those notifications .... thanks a LOT ..... LOL
 

curiouscarbon

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Didn't know that ..... I'm too much in the habit of just relying on emails or messages .... and sometimes look at reactions.
Now I'm gonna have too look thru all those notifications .... thanks a LOT ..... LOL
That's interesting. I turned off all email and rely entirely on the notification bar to be aware of activity!

Anyways, I think svetz is a good mod in general and I say THUMBS UP! Forgive and move forward.. They contribute so much else to this forum, I mean, wow! The wind and solar thread is RAD. Check it out and contribute.

Participation in this forum is dependent on how welcome people feel. People are becoming crabs pinching each other with COVID stuffing them into cabin fever. I love this forum, but the stress people are experiencing and fraying with the global pandemic is palpable to me and I don't know really what to do other than try and observe.

There's a pandemic going on, people are dying everywhere and can barely breathe while their family is far away!!

I really hope we can all move past this honestly small thing and remember that being a mod is challenging (AND UNPAID) and taking it personally is OK! It's very annoying to have people on a forum be rude, and shunting that energy is annoying. If I had to deal with users criticizing me saying I'm siding with this vendor or that vendor, I would be annoyed and want to say "actually..."

The general pattern on the forum of taking personal offense to not following a reccomendation is a sad pattern that I see sometimes here, and it's not like I want to annihilate every remain of the pattern, it's just like, people have different needs, budgets, preferences, etc. I hope this forum can remain CHILL and not be eaten alive by the pandemic vibes.

@svetz is a very valuable mod and I hope people will realize that this small oops is pretty well a mote of dust in relation to their numerous interesting contributions.

Anyways, I hope everyone here is doing OK.


Times are HARD. Even if we are not SOFT with each other on the forum, maybe we find a medium.

I don't know svetz personally, I just like this forum and want to help it be more chill in the face of this insanely brutal world situation. I've witnessed them help around the forum in a very wholesome way many times and I personally want them to remain as a mod. mods are not paid!

☮️☀️
 

curiouscarbon

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Many times people do not realize what they are saying (and many times they do; or do it intentionally to harm) ... even a simple line can be harsh, attacking, or even in the area of cyberbullying.
None of them should be allowed ... not against a user, not against a moderator.
Well said. Widely learned online is the skill of cleverly offending or antagonizing, less widely learned is the skill of cleverly signaling that you have humane intentions. Easy and fast to learn how to demolish strangers, more challenging and slow to learn how to build up strangers....
I support strong moderation and to remove/rewrite any attacks against any person.
YES.
I support forcefully keeping threads technical and humane.
This does not imply an absence of any criticism. This means humane behavior.
This is a good mood technical self-support group and needs to stay that way ... I think ... but anyone can try to convince me on the opposite :)
me too!
 

svetz

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Seems like your to emotionally involved and are now fighting with Will by making this public.
No, I'm just an idiot... meant to post it in the moderator's area. But, done is done. Could have been a Freudian slip I guess.
 
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svetz

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Editing peoples posts is bad,
Changing what people are saying is bad.
Editing or deleting posts that break the T&Cs are what you agreed to when you requested permission to be here.

i see you fighting people then trying to justify it, like with this thread.
Assume all you like, you won't find me fighting people. I do get a say like everyone else though.
 

svetz

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The only problem I have with edited threads is that they are sometimes edited without the knowledge of the person who made the post.
That shouldn't happen, but it probably has. I try to notifiy everyone so they know why something was edited. If I screwed up, like publically posting this thread, I apologize. There's only so many characters allowed so most are very short, but ask if you have questions.

I think I should be informed of that with the reason why ... and given a chance to respond.
You should be and you can. Just report the edited post and ask another moderator for review.

I don't envy the job of the moderators
No one does.

I personally like to "debate" things ..... When the other person makes personal attacks instead of debating the subject in a respectful way
It's not debate when they attack you and you attack them back. It is all too human though.
 
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svetz

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...needs to stay that way ... I think ... but anyone can try to convince me on the opposite :)
Change is the only constant. But hopefully changes are discussed and agreed upon in the complaint corner. Blaming moderators for doing thier jobs is dumb. If you don't like the T&Cs see about getting them changed.
 

svetz

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You moved my post and started a thread as if I had made it which if I had not gone in edited it and made it clear I had not made the thread, would have made me look absolutely pointless and retarded.
Yep, it was moved and I moved it.
It was off-topic in that thread and an important topic in it's own right.
You'll see the T&Cs you signed off on say that we'll do that. Fortunately, I think how you changed the title made it perfectly clear what happened.

I don't think it made you look retarded, more like a person that didn't think it appropriate to have thier posts edited by moderators. A few others felt the same way and had raised those points. Now there's a thread for everyone to discuss that topic, rather than in a thread that wasn't about the topic.
 

Steve_S

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WOWZERS
I fall over the Moderation Line occassionally and sometimes it get's deleted, sometimes edited - I don't go nuts over it, I get it, I respect it even if I may not agree with the edits. Web Toxins must be controlled or things devolve into KRAP ! and Quick ! Great way to MURDER A FORUM is to allow Toxicity. Politics, Religion, Race, Gender and such are all Radioactive Toxins ! Add in VAX/Anti-Vax, EV/Anti-EV (not much of that here) etc too I suppose... it's semi-fluid with the times...

 

noenegdod

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Took what personally?

The original assertion that you were on the take or being crooked in some way. Judges and lawyers are by law required to recuse themselves from anything in which they may have a conflict. You should have done the same. You had a personal vested interest in "Putting this accusation down" and anyone who wasnt blinded by "protecting their honor" would have realized that in using your power as a moderator could potentially make you look corrupt.

Yep, it was moved and I moved it.
It was off-topic in that thread and an important topic in it's own right.
You'll see the T&Cs you signed off on say that we'll do that. Fortunately, I think how you changed the title made it perfectly clear what happened.

I don't think it made you look retarded, more like a person that didn't think it appropriate to have thier posts edited by moderators. A few others felt the same way and had raised those points. Now there's a thread for everyone to discuss that topic, rather than in a thread that wasn't about the topic.

I do believe you didnt intentionally try to make me look dumb, you are "Just doing you job" but again, you are doing your job in a matter in which you are the subject. Moderating this issue should have been passed along to a third party to manage. You have no business managing this subject, you are not objective. Period. This is evidenced by the fact that you are now strictly enforcing the T&C policies to the letter to support your actions when it would take no effort at all to find threads with off-topic content that remained intact simply because it didnt offend you or you were not the subject.

Changing what people are saying is bad.
Editing or deleting posts that break the T&Cs are what you agreed to when you requested permission to be here.
Believing that you can edit a post without changing what is being said is arrogant. The few of mine that have been edited were not done well and were neutered to the point of looking stupid.
 

svetz

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I fall over the Moderation Line occassionally and sometimes it get's deleted, sometimes edited
It's human.
I wish people would just report it though. I don't mind giving points to instigators and trouble-makers. But I always feel bad about giving points to people who were essentially just defending themselves. That's probably the worst thing for me as a moderator. People that think I'm doing a bad job are entitled to their opinion.

I would suggest that if there are things here anyone finds untenable, they discuss it on the complaint forum. If it's making you unhappy and you haven't done anything about, don't blame a moderator for it.
 

svetz

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[Took what personally] The original assertion that you were on the take or being crooked in some way.
Does it bother me? Probably in some ways, hard to be human otherwise. Probably not as much as you think. In some ways, it feels like an annoying waste of time, but in another way it's probably good for members to talk about what they really think and feel.

Many think it's okay to be gruf or "mildly abrasive" as you put it and that they're not hurting other people when they say rude and disrespectful things. Really they are not only hurting other people, but damaging the conversation in the thread. They're people, not unimportant snowflakes that need to grow up in the harsh world.

Judges and lawyers are by law required to recuse themselves from anything in which they may have a conflict. You should have done the same.
Actually, I did. Go back and read the thread. CLOSELY.
Also did that in a number of reports making other mods pick up the load. I know you can't see those reports so can't verify it.

You'll see I didn't edit any posts, delete anything, or close the thread about ME. Talk about me all you like, nice public figure. You won't see any moderator powers being used by me on anything said about me. That doesn't mean I won't report you for T&C violations ; -).

As to "defense" I don't think I need to defend myself as I know the actions taken were above board (except the one I asked Will to look into before it all started) and that the record will clearly show it. Perhaps I'm a self-deluded arrogant ass wildly misusing their powers? I know you guys can't see those posts and edits, but Will can and you trust Will.

Primarily what I voice in that thread is why the thread was closed (a dup of the final post in the closed thread for convenience), verbiage in the thread says that it'll be looked into by Will (and some off-topic conversation (that finally got moved into a new topic)). Whereas others had quite a bit of unfounded things to say that I didn't bother to respond to.

You had a personal vested interest in "Putting this accusation down" and anyone who wasnt blinded by "protecting their honor" would have realized that in using your power as a moderator could potentially make you look corrupt.
This is true. Obvious from the OP.

Moderators must be held to a higher standard. If members can't trust moderators then they should be shown the door. Not doing so is damaging to the forums as a whole. I should be clearly vindicated or wholly convicted. There should be no ambiguous middle ground.

I do believe you didnt intentionally try to make me look dumb, you are "Just doing you job"
Thank you.

but again, you are doing your job in a matter in which you are the subject.
Actually, I wasn't the direct subject of your post. If you're talking about moderators in general modifying your posts it includes all of them and that's the way I took it.

Moderating this issue should have been passed along to a third party to manage.
It was, sorry you don't see it.

This is evidenced by the fact that you are now strictly enforcing the T&C policies
Sorry, what am I enforcing? What are these actions? I'd prefer to discuss them one by one rather than something nebulous. Don't worry about hurting my feelings with any "truths", I'd rather get them all out there.


...take no effort at all to find threads with off-topic content that remained intact simply because it didnt offend you or you were not the subject....
Two possibly mixed things here....

First, if you mean did I leave posts untouched in the thread closed because they supported one side and not the other, please click the report button on them. It's quite possible I'm a crap moderator and need to go, that would be a big help to Will.

But, if it's about splitting off-topic stuff into new threads... generally mods don't do that unless there's been a warning prior that subject is off-topic as was the case here. A lot of times if they're off-topic and not saying anything important (or the same point previously made) they just get deleted.

I thought yours was saying something important, so didn't want to delete it. But I also wanted to kill off-topic discussions because a moderator's integrity is a topic worthy of undiluted discussions. As I said in the op, I think it's important to the forums...members need to be able to unequivocally trust the moderators. If not, they should go. Why would anyone want to dilute that topic?

Believing that you can edit a post without changing what is being said is arrogant.
Pfft. Here's an example edit:
You're a fucking moron. The red wire goes to the green post​
Notice: Edited for being disrespectful, 1 pt awarded
Edited version:​
The red wire goes to the green post​

The few of mine that have been edited were not done well and were neutered to the point of looking stupid.
Please report them. Moderators aren't perfect and a lot of times we delete just the bits breaking the T&Cs less we be accused of altering meaning.
We can tell who edited them and they won't be reviewed by the person who edited them. If they are reviewed by the same person, please let Will know ASAP. If you violated the T&Cs don't expect too much sympathy though, don't want them edited/deleted, don't break the T&Cs. Or, keep going on the other thead and get the policy changed.
 
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svetz

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Judges and lawyers are by law required to recuse themselves
While moderators do generally recuse ourselves, we're not an infinite pool of moderators. Somethings need to be handled as soon as they're spotted, and we do it even if we're the targets. Fortunately, those are rare.
 
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