• Have you tried out dark mode?! Scroll to the bottom of any page to find a sun or moon icon to turn dark mode on or off!

diy solar

diy solar

I'm arguing with my solar installer. Please fact check me!

This absolutely isn't true. My panels often produce above their rating, and not just for a few seconds, but for many minutes.
Definitely agree. Mine produce over specification sustained. Not momentary. This happens only in the peak of summer, obviously at peak sun time.

Outside Summer of course they aren't producing the same as your optimal summer angle. It's in Captain Obvious' Solar 101 manuscript.
 
This is odd, but I ran a regression to show how many panels of what voltage and amperage could be stacked to optimize power supplied to a 15K without exceeding Sol-Ark's recommended voltage and amperage ratings. The optimum size panels to max out power for 6500 watt MPPT's is between 720 watts per panel and 810 watts per panel. This presumes 48.1 volts output which is pretty close to standard for oversize panels.

With 810 watt panels, you could make 3 strings of 8 panels giving a nominal total power of 6480 watts per string with input voltage per string of 385 volts (well within safety range of 500 volt MPPT max) and 16.8 amps per string. This would be inside of all required Sol-Ark requirements yet would total 19,440 watts going into the 3 MPPT's. Getting late and I'm tired so somebody check my math. Somebody else can figure the optimum for other panel voltages.

Good luck finding 810 watt solar panels rated 48.1 volts! JA Solar makes 810's but VOC is way out of line.
I checked your math. You may be missing the simple fact that there are panels around 48 volts which can be paralleled. In fact since the Sol-Ark has two inputs per MPPT, it is designed for such a setup.

Source: It is how my panels are configured. Think 400 watt range vs. 800, and double it up. No need for 800 watt panels.
 
You may be missing the simple fact that there are panels around 48 volts which can be paralleled.
Not missing it. I deliberately looked for the optimum size panel that would fit squarely inside both voltage and amperage range for maximum overall efficiency both in terms of panels to be mounted and feeds to the inverter. Any even multiples that add up to 810 watts would work. It could be done with parallel strings of 200 watt panels presuming they are available in 48 volt output. Look at it as 810 watt panels would require 24 panels in 3 strings of 8. 405 watt panels would double to 6 strings of 8 which fit the wattage/voltage/amperage requirements but incur a lot more mounting hardware cost.
 
Way to pick and choose which number to quote. If you're going to go with Imp, might as well go with Vmp too, then? Why are you quoting Imp in 1 scenario and Voc in another?
what current would you pick to 'pair up' with Voc? Ioc = 0 :) Seriously Voc is 'picked' to account for worst possible condition in 'voltage' sense plus it needs to be pro-rated up to account for coldest temp at the location. Impp is 'picked' to ensure it is within acceptable range during actual operation.
 
With 810 watt panels, you could make 3 strings of 8 panels giving a nominal total power of 6480 watts per string with input voltage per string of 385 volts (well within safety range of 500 volt MPPT max) and 16.8 amps per string. This would be inside of all required Sol-Ark requirements yet would total 19,440 watts going into the 3 MPPT's. Getting late and I'm tired so somebody check my math. Somebody else can figure the optimum for other panel voltages.

Good luck finding 810 watt solar panels rated 48.1 volts! JA Solar makes 810's but VOC is way out of line.
 
what current would you pick to 'pair up' with Voc? Ioc = 0 :) Seriously Voc is 'picked' to account for worst possible condition in 'voltage' sense plus it needs to be pro-rated up to account for coldest temp at the location. Impp is 'picked' to ensure it is within acceptable range during actual operation.
It's not about pairing up. No professional company would exceed any of the 3 ratings when it comes to PV: total Voc, total Isc, or total KW. You can argue with them until you're blue in the face. I'm just telling you that that's what they're going to stick to.
 
It's not about pairing up. No professional company would exceed any of the 3 ratings when it comes to PV: total Voc, total Isc, or total KW. You can argue with them until you're blue in the face. I'm just telling you that that's what they're going to stick to.
are you saying Isc is checked against Imppt of inverter, what for? Isc is only used to specify PV wires amperage (in case of short they have to sustain it), it's nothing to do with 'exceeding' inverter's input.

In this case OP came up with perfect fit I think with 25.3A Impp x 258Vmpp - 6,527Wmpp With common inefficiencies and panel aging his power production 'bell' is never going to be clipped even though it wouldn't be an issue either. What is the problem?
 
In this case OP came up with perfect fit I think with 25.3A Impp x 258Vmpp - 6,527Wmpp With common inefficiencies and panel aging his power production 'bell' is never going to be clipped even though it wouldn't be an issue either. What is the problem?
I don't think there is even an argument among forum members on this point.

The OP found a config they like, but they want to hire someone to do the install. When you hire someone, they work to their specifications, especially if they have to support it in the future.

So it's not a matter of can't. It's a matter of if you want to do it exactly how you want it, then it's hard to hire someone to do that. Picking every detail is common among DIY, and one of the benefits. I hit the same frustrations when getting quotes myself, so I did end up putting up my own array. It was a ton of work.

In my experience, it also seemed like the installers were picking poor panel configurations. But they had relationships with the vendors, were familiar with the products and their warranties, knew how to install them, etc. Basically I'm saying that both sides of the situation have their reasons, and both sides have solutions.
 
I don't think there is even an argument among forum members on this point.

The OP found a config they like, but they want to hire someone to do the install. When you hire someone, they work to their specifications, especially if they have to support it in the future.

So it's not a matter of can't. It's a matter of if you want to do it exactly how you want it, then it's hard to hire someone to do that. Picking every detail is common among DIY, and one of the benefits. I hit the same frustrations when getting quotes myself, so I did end up putting up my own array. It was a ton of work.

In my experience, it also seemed like the installers were picking poor panel configurations. But they had relationships with the vendors, were familiar with the products and their warranties, knew how to install them, etc. Basically I'm saying that both sides of the situation have their reasons, and both sides have solutions.
do you mean the inverter specs are overly 'optimistic' and installer would be left holding the bag? That's a possibility and makes their position understandable, I was mostly interested to see if I'm missing something.
 
do you mean the inverter specs are overly 'optimistic' and installer would be left holding the bag? That's a possibility and makes their position understandable, I was mostly interested to see if I'm missing something.
I think the specs are under-rated if anything, but the installer does what the installer does is my point. Imagine if you get someone to roof your house, but then you tell them to do it differently, or use different products that they normally do. The installer will likely get cold feet, or refuse to change because they know how what they use performs. They know where to buy it, what to expect performance wise, how to get it to seal up.

Picking every spec is something that those of us that DIY have the luxury of, but it comes at the expense of a lot of time in research, and a lot of effort in install. When you choose to hire someone, you often have to release at least some of that control to the contractor.
 
are you saying Isc is checked against Imppt of inverter, what for? Isc is only used to specify PV wires amperage (in case of short they have to sustain it), it's nothing to do with 'exceeding' inverter's input.

In this case OP came up with perfect fit I think with 25.3A Impp x 258Vmpp - 6,527Wmpp With common inefficiencies and panel aging his power production 'bell' is never going to be clipped even though it wouldn't be an issue either. What is the problem?
Yes, that is what I'm saying. I myself over-panel my inverter, so I never disagreed with OP in the first place. But that's DIY, I've yet found/seen any company that does that.
 
Can we assume the professional installer has done more than a few of these? And they know what works for them and is easiest to support over time?

Their reluctance could be as simple as the installer wants nothing to do with the Y connections needed to make OP's design work. We've certainly all seen a few of those fail here on the forum.
 
I have a string of panels at 62° for winter. I have regularly seen 2600 W when they're only rated for 2200. But it's when it's 0° F and their rating is at ~75°.

I would be fine doing calculations of Imp. It's only going to draw the current it can use. Research over panelling and how it behaves. Worst case get another SCC (or just a cheap AIO) to handle the panels the installer considers extra. A spare AIO also gives you backup/extra power output.
 
I have a string of panels at 62° for winter. I have regularly seen 2600 W when they're only rated for 2200. But it's when it's 0° F and their rating is at ~75°.

I would be fine doing calculations of Imp. It's only going to draw the current it can use. Research over panelling and how it behaves. Worst case get another SCC (or just a cheap AIO) to handle the panels the installer considers extra. A spare AIO also gives you backup/extra power output.
it must be that 62° angle and low temp of course. Here in sunny CA I've only seen 80% max from the panels (LG mono feeding to SMA inverters well within their specs), but the panels are at 17°, just laying parallel to the roof. PV Watts gave pretty close estimate for location/azimuth/inclination so I'm not even trying to improve that.

Anyway, OP installer must have their reasons, I'd try to discuss it with them as technically OP proposal is sound but he also wants installer to support the warranty and that changes things for the installer. As was said it could be as simple as unwillingness to use those Y connectors, perhaps because they never used them or used and suffered warranty calls. Warranty calls is pure expense for the installer and this business is tough as it is.
 
Is it too late to find panels with a higher wattage:voltage ratio? I have 455w panels that have a VOC of 39.94.
 
If they don't understand that "current is pulled, not pushed", and that the Max Operating Input current is simply what the inverter will use, then I would have someone else do the work.
That's true, if they pretend to be solar experts. It might be - barely - fine if they were just electricians for doing the AC out side.
 
Well, technically it's neither "pulled" not "pushed", it's "allowed to flow", panels are just like a well, just imagine that the well is self pressurized. It can deliver the Max Flow (Isc) that it has and nothing more, even if the "pipe out" can flow more. As you choke the "pipe out" the pressure will rise and the flow decrease, up the Max pressure (Voltage) that it can deliver, when you get to the max pressure it can self pressurize to (Voc) the flow stops completely.
 
Well, technically it's neither "pulled" not "pushed", it's "allowed to flow", panels are just like a well, just imagine that the well is self pressurized. It can deliver the Max Flow (Isc) that it has and nothing more, even if the "pipe out" can flow more. As you choke the "pipe out" the pressure will rise and the flow decrease, up the Max pressure (Voltage) that it can deliver, when you get to the max pressure it can self pressurize to (Voc) the flow stops completely.
Batteries and loads don't push or pull either, that's not special to panels. The V * I considerations for MPPT tracking are not battery or loads related but a different subject.
 
Put the remaining 3 panels on gen input using micro inverters
 
Last edited:
I've been measuring output from my 705 watt Canadian Solar panels for the last 2 weeks. Even when facing full on direct at the sun, they do not reach 705 watts. The best I have gotten out of them was about 650 watts per panel.

Also, 8.29 amps is the rating for 450 watt panels. OP specified 460's.
Keep in mind that they will produce a substantially higher output when cold. So measuring them right now isn't going to show you that. IIRC there was someone on here back in January complaining about blown MPPTs because their panels had over-performed in the cold weather.
 
Keep in mind that they will produce a substantially higher output when cold.
That is why I only have 8 in series to an MPPT. Each panel is rated 48.1V for Voc or about 385 volts total for the string. I can safely add one more panel if needed. I've been told these panels can produce close to 900 watts at -20F. Fortunately, the lowest we get is usually about 0F.
 

diy solar

diy solar
Back
Top