I'm interested in a hiked-in wilderness water collection setup using solar energy

[WildernessMan]

My bestie and I have been trail building in the wilderness for quite a number of years. We have developed this one trail and cleared out a large area of undergrowth on the top of a majestic coastal mountain with an awesome view and call it Red Corn Camp. There is no water supply on the top of a mountain. I've been obsessing about using solar power to power a dehumidifier to collect water from the air, and then possibly drill a hole in the tank and run a tube out of it to a large 5 gallon tank we then run through a water filter for drinkable water. Every component in this mix would need to be hiked in. There are those flexible solar panels. Would they be sufficient to power a dehumidifier?

After looking at many dehumidifiers for sale, I focused on this model which appears to take a 12v input: https://www.bestbuy.com/site/spt-sd...d-ti02-black-platinum/3933091.p?skuId=3933091

I believe the flexible solar panels rated at 100 - 130 watts mostly output at 12v. But would I need several of them to power this one device? I don't really know how to work this out. The specifications do not indicate wattage or amperage requirements.

As far as water filter is concerned, I realize that end of this topic is likely out of range of the expertise here, but so that you know, my idea would utilize a double liner nearly indestructible 5 gallon water tank that is designed to use an in-line filter like a Sawyer filter, and then drain into another 5 gallon tank. It could be suspended by a tree branch, which is what we do on some backpacking trips. We normally fill one 5 gallon tank, then hang it up, put the filter on the bottom, hang another tank underneath and then turn the spigot on to the water filter and let it just gravity feed the bottom tank. We would use the same concept.

Likely we would tie the solar panels up to tree branches and have it suspended near the canopy between two trees and place the dehumidifier above the top 5 gallon tank.

What I would like to know is how do I figure out the power needs. Do I need only one solar panel or more than one?

And also I'd like to know if anyone else has done anything like this before. And if you did, what did you do? Have any advice on which panels and which dehumidifier would be best? Everything has to be hiked in. I can't being flat bulky panels they are too big and too heavy. Not sure if the flexible ones could be rolled up and stuffed in a backpack or not. Maybe I'd have to tie them onto the back of my backpack and let them drape down.

 

[Bubba1]

What is the average humidity at your location? Is it high enough to make enough water? One 100 watt panel is not much power. I would guess you would need 400 w at least.

 

[WildernessMan]

What is the average humidity at your location? Is it high enough to make enough water? One 100 watt panel is not much power. I would guess you would need 400 w at least.

Well it is the Central Coast of California which is a very temperate region of California. Our highs lately have been 60's and 70's. The humidity is relatively high through the nights, it's on the top of the mountains. But that higher humidity time doesn't have solar energy so that's a negative. There's water condensation that runs off from the leaves hitting the ground that are still moist even by noon (this time of the year) in the shade. I think maybe the humidity would be higher than 65% but lower than 80%. I would assume there's enough humidity to make water because I run a dehumidifier in my bathroom 24/7/365 since my exhaust fan does not work and it makes water.

 

[WildernessMan]

Hmm.. looks like Best Buy doesn't show the wattage but Amazon does. I did some searching around and found on Amazon the listing there of the same device shows: 12V DC adaptor (UL listed) Power consumption: 60 (±5) WUnitws:

Amazon.com

So does this mean a single panel could power one of these units since a single panel provides 100 - 130 watts at 12 volts?

 

[Bubba1]

Perhaps try it from a similar elevation with a generator to get idea of the volume of water available. If you use a kil-a-watt meter between generator and dehumidifier you can see how many watts per gallon and go from there.

 

[curiouscarbon]

dear @experthiker your project interests me intensely and i hope it succeeds

i think peltier thermoelectric type will be easier to power for small scale than compressor heat pump. even though heat transfer efficiency is lower with peltier it’s much easier to manage in my opinion.

interesting option with UV light and TiO2 mesh.

maybe use berkey filter with gravity to filter the water

maybe send a sample out to a lab

check out what this person did for ideas: https://hackaday.io/project/5103-smart-dew-point-water-harvester

edit: also check out the aqua boy device to analyze their approach. https://www.atmosphericwatersolutions.com/faqs.html https://www.atmosphericwatersolutions.com/why-aquaboy.html
HEPA filter the air first then condense onto cold fins, etc. check out the diagram below



highly recommend consideration of using air filter on intake and exhaust to make downstream water filtration easier

if you want to go absolutely insane with the air filtering i would recommend buying an IQAir filter (i repurpose the whole house air filter packs) they will filter the everliving heck out of the air before it deposits water. i breathe IQAir filtered air every day and it smells like nothing, simply the absence of a scent.

ultra edit: you can DIY this with a peltier thermoelectric cooling module, this is the route i am taking because of considerations about water safety. https://www.amazon.com/BQLZR-TEC1-12730-Thermoelectric-Peltier-Cooling/dp/B00EQ1X5EC


i’m happy to keep linking more modules that handle the DIY path but will stop here don’t want to oversaturate with detail.

after thinking a lot about this problem (what material should i make cold so water condenses onto it and drips away?) and copper or food grade silicone were two high on my list of feel good for drinking. i would use the peltier to cool down a working fluid (water or glycol water mix) and circulate through tubing (copper or silicone or…) coil it up in a vertical tower. put a fan on top that pumps air out. filtered air intake go onto vertical coil. small stainless steel pan below vertical coil is entry point into water filter loop.

filtered air intake also helps address issue of bugs etc getting into water.

ok i have rambled enough thanks

combo edit:

maybe do that for the last step of water filtration. that’s what i’m gonna do eventually. stainless steel reservoir plus berkey filter gravity drain with spigot gravity fed outlet. then just before that is like UV lamps and water prefiltration.

too many edits: if you at some point decide you want a copper tube radiator with aluminum fins, i can recommend this type (i tested a larger size but this one is 12”x12” which might be able to keep a peltier element or handful of their hot side at near ambient for good performance. https://www.amazon.com/AB-Exchanger-Copper-Furnace-Plenum/dp/B0716J6SMY

regarding moving fluid. i have this pump on order but the materials it is made out of seem very promising to me from a reliability standpoint. (PPS, ceramic, stainless) 12V 0.7A ~9W power use https://www.amazon.com/bayite-BYT-7A006-Heater-Circulation-Discharge/dp/B0196WL55G

previously i tried using computer pc water cooling pumps found expensive and low capacity

regarding protecting the air filter. haven’t tested this yet by the way, i’m considering placing stainless steel mesh like this https://www.amazon.com/Packs-Stainless-Screen-Filter-Filtration/dp/B07XFMPQR1 on the outside of each HEPA filter to reduce dust entering. probably good to get one of the prefilters embedded with a small amount of activated charcoal or something to max out lifetime.


if you pass warmed air from a radiator into cold coils i think the condensation effect might be more because warm air can hold more moisture and cold less. could be negligible difference. i’ve rambled enough for one post ? thanks

good luck ?

 

[WildernessMan]

dear @experthiker your project interests me intensely and i hope it succeeds

i think peltier thermoelectric type will be easier to power for small scale than compressor heat pump. even though heat transfer efficiency is lower with peltier it’s much easier to manage in my opinion.

interesting option with UV light and TiO2 mesh.

maybe use berkey filter with gravity to filter the water

maybe send a sample out to a lab

check out what this person did for ideas: https://hackaday.io/project/5103-smart-dew-point-water-harvester

edit: also check out the aqua boy device to analyze their approach. https://www.atmosphericwatersolutions.com/faqs.html https://www.atmosphericwatersolutions.com/why-aquaboy.html
HEPA filter the air first then condense onto cold fins, etc. check out the diagram below

View attachment 47956

highly recommend consideration of using air filter on intake and exhaust to make downstream water filtration easier

if you want to go absolutely insane with the air filtering i would recommend buying an IQAir filter (i repurpose the whole house air filter packs) they will filter the everliving heck out of the air before it deposits water. i breathe IQAir filtered air every day and it smells like nothing, simply the absence of a scent.

ultra edit: you can DIY this with a peltier thermoelectric cooling module, this is the route i am taking because of considerations about water safety. https://www.amazon.com/BQLZR-TEC1-12730-Thermoelectric-Peltier-Cooling/dp/B00EQ1X5EC
View attachment 47973

i’m happy to keep linking more modules that handle the DIY path but will stop here don’t want to oversaturate with detail.

after thinking a lot about this problem (what material should i make cold so water condenses onto it and drips away?) and copper or food grade silicone were two high on my list of feel good for drinking. i would use the peltier to cool down a working fluid (water or glycol water mix) and circulate through tubing (copper or silicone or…) coil it up in a vertical tower. put a fan on top that pumps air out. filtered air intake go onto vertical coil. small stainless steel pan below vertical coil is entry point into water filter loop.

filtered air intake also helps address issue of bugs etc getting into water.

ok i have rambled enough thanks

combo edit:

maybe do that for the last step of water filtration. that’s what i’m gonna do eventually. stainless steel reservoir plus berkey filter gravity drain with spigot gravity fed outlet. then just before that is like UV lamps and water prefiltration.

This is an awesome post! I have much to check out. And will be doing exactly that. Thanks so much, bud!

 

[Hedges]

How about a different technology, evaporating and catching water from the earth?
On a slope, could have the collector gravity-feed a reservoir.

How to Make Water in the Desert: 2 Simple Ways

Get potable water to quench your thirst in dry climates Dehydration can set in quickly in the desert. If you are lost in a barren landscape you can actually extract water from soil or plants through the process of condensation, using the...

www.wikihow.com

 

[curiouscarbon]

bamboo frame + polyester mesh

 

[WildernessMan]

bamboo frame + polyester mesh

Yeah I saw this invention some years ago. It's a great idea. But it's too big and would take too long to put together. This location I'm talking about is a difficult bushwhack hike to get in, and the device should not be able to be discovered by others. Being that we're talking about a mountain top that would be a bit difficult for such a height would be easily spotted from surrounding areas. Still, it's remarkable how much water it can develop.

 

[WildernessMan]

How about a different technology, evaporating and catching water from the earth?
On a slope, could have the collector gravity-feed a reservoir.

How to Make Water in the Desert: 2 Simple Ways

Get potable water to quench your thirst in dry climates Dehydration can set in quickly in the desert. If you are lost in a barren landscape you can actually extract water from soil or plants through the process of condensation, using the...

www.wikihow.com

Unfortunately this is a very low yielding method of obtaining water and it requires much energy to dig that hole and also takes a lot of vegetation to "feed" it. It's something to consider for survival reasons when you have no other alternatives.

 

[Leocorno]

You may want to check to see if this is cool with PG&E Diablo Canyon power station or Montana de Oro State Park first since it appears to be on that property from your videos.

​

 

[HRTKD]

If this is true wilderness area, you'll get busted for it.

Restrictions
• Constructing, placing, or maintaining any kind of road, trail, structure, fence, enclosure, communication equipment, significant surface disturbance, or other improvement on National Forest System lands. 36 CFR 261.10.
• Constructing, reconstructing, improving, maintaining, occupying or using a residence on National Forest System lands. 36 CFR 261.10.
• Abandoning any personal property. 36 CFR 261.10

 

[WildernessMan]

If this is true wilderness area, you'll get busted for it.

Restrictions
• Constructing, placing, or maintaining any kind of road, trail, structure, fence, enclosure, communication equipment, significant surface disturbance, or other improvement on National Forest System lands. 36 CFR 261.10.
• Constructing, reconstructing, improving, maintaining, occupying or using a residence on National Forest System lands. 36 CFR 261.10.
• Abandoning any personal property. 36 CFR 261.10

Hi I am aware of those rules. I live by them. As a matter of fact I wind up doing a lot of trail cleanup of "personal property" left behind whether trash left behind by hunters (they seem to dominate the trash making) or items that fall off backpacks like jackets, hats, gloves, socks, etc. Nearly every backpacking trip I make in Big Sur I seem to come home with at least one or two items that I didn't leave with. I am also a volunteer with several organizations performing trail maintenance from year to year in my favorite hiking locations like the Los Padres National Forest.

Just so you know, this property is not I guess what you would call true wilderness by the definition of what you quoted. But it is wilderness from the perspective of being so far out there. It's private property and I have permission to be there. I wanted to purchase the property but the owner doesn't want to sell. But I was able to obtain permission to create a trail to and through the property on various ridges of it. I was also given permission to camp there but there's no water so I haven't camped there. My buddy and I just call it a camp because sometimes we day hike there and set up hammocks just to enjoy our stay a bit longer.

As far as the land use specifically, it is very far off the grid so to speak. It's a nasty bushwhack to get to, lots of poison oak, and lots of elevation change, very steep terrain, and as such nobody could realistically build anything there. I know because I spent a great deal of time checking before I approached the owner. The land is in a general region on a land use map identified as "recreational" even though it's got agricultural zoning. Therefore the land use won't allow any permanent structures of any kind. So this idea I have of water harvesting is not permanent structures since that is a legal term that applies to permanently affixed to the land (i.e. concrete foundation, or some kind of permanent method). Also, recreational land use doesn't allow us to alter the land so that it alters the view from other locations. It's supposed to remain pristine looking. So therefore I figured tying flexible solar panels up by their grommets between tree branches is fine. You won't be able to see it from afar and it won't add any height or obstruct any views. The rest of the equipment will be under forest canopy and therefore not visible. And since all of these materials could be removed very easily within minutes, nothing is permanent.

So rest your mind, nothing nefarious or shady is going on here. That said I'm not sharing exactly where this location is because it's a nice little secret for my buddy and I to enjoy. We put all the time into building a trail there.

 

[WildernessMan]

You may want to check to see if this is cool with PG&E Diablo Canyon power station or Montana de Oro State Park first

​

Hi, we have permission to be there. It's private property. I just saw your post after another post which I responded to at more length. We just can't build any permanent structures but we can install a water collection feature. Permission granted.

 

[HRTKD]

That's cool. I've camped/hiked in wilderness areas in Wyoming and getting caught violating the rules is a costly experience from what I hear.

 

[Leocorno]

Expert - finding both you and the exact location of your camp is trivial since you have left internet breadcrumbs all over the place that anyone with an extra 90 seconds can easily discover. You appear to adopt the same philosophy in your wilderness explorations. Obviously, what you enjoy about being in that place is that it is remote and undisturbed. I hope you one day discover the joy you can have from leaving it that way when you exit.

 

[Alphacarina]

I predict that to make any significant amount of water, you're going to need to run the little Peltier dehumidifier 24/7, so you're going to need a few panels, a charge controller and a battery pack - The sizes of all 3 to be determined when you trial run the dehumidifier in a similar environment (humidity) to the location where you need the water. With only a 60 watt draw, nothing needs to be all that large. 60 watts for 24 hours is about 1.5Kw, so 400 watts of panels and a 12 volt 100 AH battery would be a good start. Getting a 35 pound battery up there would be the hardest part I suspect. If four 100 watt panels won't keep the battery charged, you can always add a couple more later

But, if anybody else figures out where you are, all of the above could disappear just as easily as you got it all up there . . . .

Don

 

[Bubba1]

I find that in remote location that you can't access by vehicle thieft is not that common.

 

[curiouscarbon]

I predict that to make any significant amount of water, you're going to need to run the little Peltier dehumidifier 24/7, so you're going to need a few panels, a charge controller and a battery pack - The sizes of all 3 to be determined when you trial run the dehumidifier in a similar environment (humidity) to the location where you need the water. With only a 60 watt draw, nothing needs to be all that large. 60 watts for 24 hours is about 1.5Kw, so 400 watts of panels and a 12 volt 100 AH battery would be a good start. Getting a 35 pound battery up there would be the hardest part I suspect. If four 100 watt panels won't keep the battery charged, you can always add a couple more later

But, if anybody else figures out where you are, all of the above could disappear just as easily as you got it all up there . . . .

Don

dawn and dusk are two times of day that are great to collect humidity from the atmosphere in many climates. maybe worth it to soak up energy during day and “spend” it when more optimal conditions arise based on sensors

a sensor and thoughtful firmware can go a long way

maybe a sign “leave this alone and come again when you’re thirsty” would discourage theft ?