IMO Fire Raptor vs TIGO Rapid Shutdown

[EJansen]

I'm putting 6KW of solar on my roof via two arrays of panels, that are going to my string inverters and being that my local county goes by 2017 NEC, I need per panel / module level shutdown. I was wondering what others liked / recommend for rapid shutdown, but specifically, I haven't seen much in regard to the IMO Fire Raptors and was wondering if anyone would be able to compare / contrast those vs the TIGO options? I've heard people say that the TIGOs have had issues, but I don't specifically know what they're talking about.

Thanks,
Eric

 

[onokai]

I have tigos on 24, 400 watt panels. I have the TS4-A-O which I only use to optimize (they do fire control) I'm not using them for fire control. I have the system (the tab unit and the CCA wired in) but I have yet to activate it. The tigo's are striaght DC units which is what I have.I also have a sol arc inverter not connected to the Tigo system at all.
They optimize right out of the box-for the fire control you need a Tab unit that comes with the CCA unit-that also requires a cable to run from tap un it in array to the cca which needs internet to use the app. In a power outage they shut the panels off. That have worked the bugs out and are solid units now. Thats about all I know on them I have not heard about fire raptors

 

[EJansen]

Thanks for the info! In my case, I actually don't want the panels to get shut off if the power goes out because my inverters will power a separate 'grid disconnected' panel to feed the loads - just not sure how I'd disable that feature. I just need to read the install manuals / for both options. I emailed the Alt-E store asking for feedback, but never got a response. I'll have some time this weekend to research a bit more. Glad to hear that they got the bugs got worked out and that they've been solid for you.

 

[Ampster]

I actually don't want the panels to get shut off if the power goes out because my inverters will power a separate 'grid disconnected' panel to feed the loads

It will depend on the building and fire codes in your area but if there is a fire I think there needs to be some way for first responders to also turn off your inverter. Otherwise they are at risk with some of the conductors being energized. I am not talking about panel level shut down, just inverter shut down.

 

[EJansen]

Ah yes, definitely agree that the fireman etc need to be able to turn the system off in case of emergency. I want that capability, but by way of the emergency shutoff switch. I just don't want every power outage to turn my panels and inverters off.

 

[onokai]

The CCA unit has a turn off here sticker (just pull the plug) for firemen

 

[Ampster]

The CCA unit has a turn off here sticker (just pull the plug) for firemen

I simply wired a $60 Fire Raptor button which has a big red button and labels and put it near my main service panel. In my case there was an optional jumper setting on my inverter and two connections to do that. In some cases it could be a serial connection to a on off switch.

 

[EJansen]

I got two of the new EG4 6500 inverters, but I haven't been home long enough to get everything installed with my travel schedule; I'm not even sure how the rapid shutdown options would hook into those inverters to shut them down. Guess i'll need to find some schematics or see if there's some other threads talking about that on the forum here.

 

[ncsolarelectric]

I got two of the new EG4 6500 inverters, but I haven't been home long enough to get everything installed with my travel schedule; I'm not even sure how the rapid shutdown options would hook into those inverters to shut them down. Guess i'll need to find some schematics or see if there's some other threads talking about that on the forum here.

Rapid Shutdown is a requirement for a Grid-tied inverter. I didn't know it was also required for off-grid inverters. (EG4 6500 is NOT utility-interactive.) In the case of battery inverters like the EG4, you would hit the OFF switch, I suppose.

 

[EJansen]

Yeah, I was trying to get clarification from my local fire department since a buddy of mine works there. I want to do things right, but at the same time I'm probably not going to get it inspected since the 6500's aren't truly UL listed, so I'd fail no matter what. This is where I left off before I had to leave for business travel (that and I was waiting on the second inverter and the additional batteries):



The panel on the right is a sub from my main being fed from a 100-amp double pole breaker and 2AWG THHN. The panel on the left is my 'off grid' panel where it would feed some of the loads coming from the main panel that you can see in the ceiling above it to the left. Primarily, I wanted to just power my server rack since its 700 watts of power suck 24/7, and my 2.5 and 4 ton AC units.

I have the panels, racking, roof entry, fuses, any/all wiring etc. I just need to figure out the rapid shutdown option. Right now, I'm leaning towards the TIGO because it does monitoring, where the FireRaptor doesn't. - that is unless anyone has feedback for any other better options. The FireRaptor seems very simple and effective though, and I like that if the unit itself gets to 185 degrees, it shuts the panels off.

My original plan was never to have a sub panel from the main - but since I went through the pain of tearing up my drywall and running the conduit to the main panel and doing the pull, at some point maybe I'll get a Sol-Ark 15K or Deye equivalent should it ever come out, and maybe just feed the whole house instead of select circuits. Any suggestions about anything is welcome.

 

[EJansen]

I simply wired a $60 Fire Raptor button which has a big red button and labels and put it near my main service panel. In my case there was an optional jumper setting on my inverter and two connections to do that. In some cases it could be a serial connection to a on off switch.

By chance do you have a part number for the button that you got and how you wired it? The cheapest FireRaptor switch that I'm seeing is $120 from Alt-E, but maybe the prices jumped due to inflation and supply and demand?

I like the simplicity of these, but the monitoring and optimization of the TIGO, but perhaps I can get the best of both worlds - I need to see the install guide on the TIGO CCA and TAP. Maybe I just use the FireRaptor switch to kill power to the CCA for shutting down just the panels,

 

[Ampster]

By chance do you have a part number for the button that you got and how you wired it

I was wrong about the price. I paid $103 from Industrial Controls Direct and this is the line item from the invoice:
1 x FRS-ESW1 Emergency Rapid Shutdown Unit (for FRS-01) (NON - UL) (FRS-ESW1-NonUL) = $103.00
My inverter has two wires for RSD and I just wired it direct because it is either normally closed or normally open. I eliminated the parts inside that were designed for a more elaborate system. As I mentioned it could also be wired to an inverter on off switch if your inverter has one.

 

[Bluedog225]

For a panel level shut down protection arrangement, Isn’t the right thing to want as follows?
If the house is on fire otherwise, manual shut down is great.
If they system is causing the potential for fire, the others are needed.

I don’t think this is available.

-manual shut down
-series fault shut down
-parallel fault shut down
-ground fault shut down

 

[EJansen]

For a panel level shut down protection arrangement, Isn’t the right thing to want as follows?
If the house is on fire otherwise, manual shut down is great.
If they system is causing the potential for fire, the others are needed.

I don’t think this is available.

-manual shut down
-series fault shut down
-parallel fault shut down
-ground fault shut down

Yea, I want features from both the FireRaptor and Tigo. Basically if the FireRaptor had monitoring and optimization then I'd go with that, since at least if it gets too hot on the roof as a result of some system fault, it'll shut the panel or panels off that are problematic.

What I should do is put a smoke detector above my equipment in the basement and if it goes off, have that somehow initiate a full system shutdown of the battery bank, inverters, and panels.

 

[Bluedog225]

Or micros. Solves all those problems.

 

[Ampster]

What I should do is put a smoke detector above my equipment in the basement

A heat detector directly above your cells would be more effective because by the time there is smoke it is too late. Most good BMSs have temperature sensors that can be placed on several spots on the pack to let the BMS disconnect the pack from the inverter on an over temp situation. I have mine set to 125 F.

 

[EJansen]

Or micros. Solves all those problems.

I don't know a ton about the micro inverter options, but let's say that I took the EG4 inverters out of the mix and went with micro inverters on the roof, would those just feed my 'off grid' panel? How would I integrate the battery bank? Or would the micro inverters feed the AC input for the EG4 inverters?

I assume the bigger name brands like Enphase have some sort of device that does, but I haven't researched it much at all. I just know some of those options are obscenely expensive, but I don't exactly know why. Better UL listed parts perhaps and better automation?

My neighbors a couple of streets over are using the same REC400A panels that I have (granted they also have 20 more than I do at the moment) with Micro inverters, but no energy storage and they paid $80K. I think right now I'm up to $21K with the 6 batteries, two inverters, snap n rack racking, the sub panels, all wiring, conduit, wireways, jboxes, fuses, breakers, and a couple of tools that I didn't have. If I had the same number of panels as them, my cost would be closer to $32K with the additional racking, wiring, conduit, second roof entry, and additional Tigos - I just can't see how / why it cost them that extra 48K, even with install labor, additional racking and micro inverters, and permitting, and still having no ESS.

 

[EJansen]

A heat detector directly above your cells would be more effective because by the time there is smoke it is too late. Most good BMSs have temperature sensors that can be placed on several spots on the pack to let the BMS disconnect the pack from the inverter on an over temp situation. I have mine set to 125 F.

I've never even heard of a heat detector before today - that's awesome. I believe the EG4 batteries have high temp cutoffs on the BMS if I recall correctly, but I wasn't aware of external 3rd party options. What model do you use, and if it gets too hot, how do you have it trigger a shutdown? Also, do you trigger a shutdown just of the batteries, or of the whole system?

 

[onokai]

I don't know a ton about the micro inverter options, but let's say that I took the EG4 inverters out of the mix and went with micro inverters on the roof, would those just feed my 'off grid' panel? How would I integrate the battery bank? Or would the micro inverters feed the AC input for the EG4 inverters?

I assume the bigger name brands like Enphase have some sort of device that does, but I haven't researched it much at all. I just know some of those options are obscenely expensive, but I don't exactly know why. Better UL listed parts perhaps and better automation?

My neighbors a couple of streets over are using the same REC400A panels that I have (granted they also have 20 more than I do at the moment) with Micro inverters, but no energy storage and they paid $80K. I think right now I'm up to $21K with the 6 batteries, two inverters, snap n rack racking, the sub panels, all wiring, conduit, wireways, jboxes, fuses, breakers, and a couple of tools that I didn't have. If I had the same number of panels as them, my cost would be closer to $32K with the additional racking, wiring, conduit, second roof entry, and additional Tigos - I just can't see how / why it cost them that extra 48K, even with install labor, additional racking and micro inverters, and permitting, and still having no ESS.

someone is laughing on the way to the bank

 

[Ampster]

I wasn't aware of external 3rd party options. What model do you use, and if it gets too hot, how do you have it trigger a shutdown?

Mine are temperature sensors on my Orion BMS. It is a $600 BMS designed for EVs. It just opens a contactor that isolates the batteries from the Inverter. The concept is that the batteries are overheating because of too much charge or discharge.