diy solar

diy solar

IMO Fire Raptor vs TIGO Rapid Shutdown

I don't know a ton about the micro inverter options, but let's say that I took the EG4 inverters out of the mix and went with micro inverters on the roof, would those just feed my 'off grid' panel? How would I integrate the battery bank? Or would the micro inverters feed the AC input for the EG4 inverters?

I assume the bigger name brands like Enphase have some sort of device that does, but I haven't researched it much at all. I just know some of those options are obscenely expensive, but I don't exactly know why. Better UL listed parts perhaps and better automation?

My neighbors a couple of streets over are using the same REC400A panels that I have (granted they also have 20 more than I do at the moment) with Micro inverters, but no energy storage and they paid $80K. I think right now I'm up to $21K with the 6 batteries, two inverters, snap n rack racking, the sub panels, all wiring, conduit, wireways, jboxes, fuses, breakers, and a couple of tools that I didn't have. If I had the same number of panels as them, my cost would be closer to $32K with the additional racking, wiring, conduit, second roof entry, and additional Tigos - I just can't see how / why it cost them that extra 48K, even with install labor, additional racking and micro inverters, and permitting, and still having no ESS.
I don't know of any other off-grid capable microinverters other than Enphase IQ8, and while they can do it, Enphase won't let you do it. In order to use the IQ8's off-grid, you still need the grid and their transfer switch, and 2 Load controllers or an Encharge battery, and their Gateway with both wifi and a cellular modem to connect them all. Once you have all that in place, then you can provision the inverters to work off-grid. Unfortunately, I didn't do it right so now I'm waiting on the battery to arrive, so I can install it and turn my off-grid system on.

If anyone knows of an off-grid capable microinverter, I'd love to hear about it. The closest I've found can work in parallel with a generator or off-grid inverter, but can't operate without an existing microgrid.
 
OK, here's another monkey wrench to throw into the scenario, when reading through how to set up the Tigo CCA for rapid shutdown.

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In my case, I have a standby generator for the whole house that kicks on within about 15 seconds of the grid going down. If the CCA is supposed to be on the same branch circuit it'd just turn the panels right back on after the generator kicked on. Just one more reason that I only want to use the big red button rapid shut down option, vs any time the power goes out, it turns my panels off, especially since it'll only be powering a few circuits in the house again, 'off-grid'.

Let's say that I was grid connected, and the firefighters turned the power off, that'd just kick the transfer switch over and generator on anyhow- I don't know of a rapid shutdown requirement for generators?

Again, any feedback is appreciated.

Cheers,
Eric
 
I did mention this in my Tigo post-thats one reson I just installed them (they work without the CCA on) and did not power up the CCA myself-I do not need fire protection . I can turn off array at array if needed or at sol arc as well.
In terms if micro inverters and batteries I found it easier to keep it all DC for the batteries as well expecially with a sol arc.
 
No, but it looks like an interesting alternative to consider before I drop the cash Tigo.

They can handle 900W, so I was thinking about using 1 per 2 modules. My modules are bifacial with STC = 460W, and NMOT = 341W.

The email I received was: “A single NMax RSD/Optimizer can handle up to 900W total either per module or shared between two modules if < = 450W each. Unfortunately, if you’re using 460W panels, then you’ll need one RSD/Optimizer per module. ”

But isn’t the STC number under ideal conditions in a lab? And panels generally degrade the first year ~3%? Would I ever expect to reach such a number?
 
They can handle 900W, so I was thinking about using 1 per 2 modules. My modules are bifacial with STC = 460W, and NMOT = 341W.

The email I received was: “A single NMax RSD/Optimizer can handle up to 900W total either per module or shared between two modules if < = 450W each. Unfortunately, if you’re using 460W panels, then you’ll need one RSD/Optimizer per module. ”

But isn’t the STC number under ideal conditions in a lab? And panels generally degrade the first year ~3%? Would I ever expect to reach such a number?
Yeah, unfortunately you have to do all of the calculations based on STC, but for good reason.

One example, in my own testing on my REC400AA panels, the STC for max power output is 400 (as denoted by the panel version), but the NMOT is only rated at 305W, however I've had 3 in series plugged into my Ecoflow Delta Pro, just testing the panels in my back yard. In full sunlight they got over 1125 watts combined - so if we broke it up evenly that's 375W per panel. I was pretty happy with that.

Regarding their optimizer, I emailed them with a few questions - we'll see what they come back with. I did find it odd that their RSS transmitter doesn't even have install instructions, and just says 'coming soon' - Are these guys that new? I've never heard of them, but that doesn't mean they haven't been around for 50 years.
 
Yeah, unfortunately you have to do all of the calculations based on STC, but for good reason.

One example, in my own testing on my REC400AA panels, the STC for max power output is 400 (as denoted by the panel version), but the NMOT is only rated at 305W, however I've had 3 in series plugged into my Ecoflow Delta Pro, just testing the panels in my back yard. In full sunlight they got over 1125 watts combined - so if we broke it up evenly that's 375W per panel. I was pretty happy with that.

Regarding their optimizer, I emailed them with a few questions - we'll see what they come back with. I did find it odd that their RSS transmitter doesn't even have install instructions, and just says 'coming soon' - Are these guys that new? I've never heard of them, but that doesn't mean they haven't been around for 50 years.

Well, that just doubled my cost for optimizers!

They are new, I think they just started selling last fall.
 
Here was the response that I got back from them - great details!:

Smart MLPE RSD with Optimization: Enteligent’s NMaxTM M900Ax, Rapid Shut Down with Optimization. Shipping now.

Embedded microprocessor controlled adaptive technology

Ensures maximum PV module output, in full sun or shade

900W of PV module input – single & dual configurations

Intelligently adapts to MPPT inverter schemes

Compatible with industry-leading PV string inverters

Panel-level monitoring ready

UL 1741, FCC B, SunSpec RSD Certified, 25-year warranty

Bi-directional PLC Transmitter: Enteligent NMaxTM RSS Transmitter. Shipping next month.

Panel Level Monitoring with NMax RSD/Optimizers

Crosstalk prevention and False AFCI avoidance

DIN rail, PCBA and External wall-mount box configurations

UL 1741, CSA C22.2#107.1, NEC 2017 & 2020 (690.12), FCC Part 15 B, SunSpec RSD Certified, 10-year warranty



NMaxTM RSD/Optimizer Products:

NMaxTM M900A1:
Is a single input SKU that can be installed on each module of less than 900W or shared across two modules as long as the combined module wattage < 900W.

NMaxTM M900A2: Is a dual input SKU that can be installed on each module of less than 900W or shared across two modules as long as the combined module wattage < 900W.



Configuration Options: Please keep in mind that our NMaxTM devices have both RSD and Optimizer functionality. They are not RSD only devices.

Option 1: The NMaxTM M900A1 can be installed so that it is shared across two modules with combined module wattages < 900W. In this configuration the unit will provide independent RSD functionality for each module and shared optimization across both modules. This is the least expensive option when shared optimization is sufficient because the cost of the NMaxTM M900A1 can be spread across two solar modules.

Option 2: The NMaxTM M900A1 can be installed on each module. In this configuration the unit will provide module level RSD functionality as well as module level optimization again up to a total module wattage of 900W. This option works well when solar modules > 450W. This is the least expensive option when one NMaxTM device is required per solar module.

Option 3: The NMaxTM M900A2 can be installed so that it is shared across two modules with combined wattages < 900W. This option will provide both module level RSD functionality as well as module level Optimization. This is your lowest cost option when module level optimization is required and one unit per module is not required because the cost of the NMaxTM M900A2 can be spread across two solar modules.



Feature
SolarEdge
Tigo TS4-A-O
Tigo TS4-A-F
APS
NEP
Enteligent
Panel-level optimization
X​
X​
X​
Optimization by-pass
X​
X​
No derating of optimization
X​
X​
Panel-level monitoring
X​
X​
X​
X​
Panel-level data local to premises
X​
X​
Power Line Communications
X​
X​
X​
X​
X​
SunSpec RSD Certified
X​
X​
X​
No PV module limitations per PV string
X​
Some​
Some​
?​
X​
Straight-forward installation
X​
X​
X​
X​
X​
 
The pure TS4-A-F don’t use a CCA/TAP and just need a signal injector. I’m actually going to install TS4-A-Os in the near future for rapid shutdown (and they didn’t cost that much more to add per-panel optimization IMO).

I caught this video the other day:
 
Let's say that I was grid connected, and the firefighters turned the power off, that'd just kick the transfer switch over and generator on anyhow- I don't know of a rapid shutdown requirement for generators?

You just need some sort of switch that is properly labeled for the rapid shutdown. I’m using an e-stop mushroom button for which powers the CCA, a relay for the inverter power button, and also a Tyco EV200 contactor for the batteries. My inverter falls to off-grid mode if the grid goes down or someone turns off the grid disconnect. This is accounted for in NEC.

Most municipalities seem to find a TUV certification to UL specifications acceptable:
 

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You just need some sort of switch that is properly labeled for the rapid shutdown. I’m using an e-stop mushroom button for which powers the CCA, a relay for the inverter power button, and also a Tyco EV200 contactor for the batteries. My inverter falls to off-grid mode if the grid goes down or someone turns off the grid disconnect. This is accounted for in NEC.

Most municipalities seem to find a TUV certification to UL specifications acceptable:
I finally got back to my install after coming back from vacation and tested out the TIGOs yesterday. Doesn't get much easier. Install the TIGO's on the panel, Create your account, do a quick diagram of your panels, upload the spreadsheet full of TS4-A-Os, associated to the specific panels that you added to the diagram, put the panels out in the sun, do a discovery for your CCA, TAPs, and TS4s, and then test. I just removed power from the CCA, retested voltage on each the panels, and verified that all power was off (where each panel had power before).

I'm actually thinking about using both the E-Stop IMO button in addition to either a smart plug or smart relay, so I could remotely shut the system down, pending internet accessibility, or physically via the button. I have a spare emporia smart plug, so I may just use that.
 
You just need some sort of switch that is properly labeled for the rapid shutdown. I’m using an e-stop mushroom button for which powers the CCA, a relay for the inverter power button, and also a Tyco EV200 contactor for the batteries. My inverter falls to off-grid mode if the grid goes down or someone turns off the grid disconnect. This is accounted for in NEC.

Most municipalities seem to find a TUV certification to UL specifications acceptable:
So for the battery shutdown, I assume your connection to the battery looks something like this: Inverter Pos Batt Term ----> DC Disconnect ----> DC Pos Bus Bar ----> Tyco EV200 contactor ----> Pos Battery Bus Bar ----> Each Battery connected to said bus bar? Or do you have a contactor for Pos and one for Neg?

Those contactors are pretty nice from what I'm seeing - may have to adopt your strategy. I just need to figure out how I'm going to shut down my EG4 6500s now. Hoping to have my system 'comissioned' by this weekend.
 
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