diy solar

diy solar

Intriguing question - What happens when you hook an on-grid solar inverter to a portable power station in an off-grid situation?

It certainly looks it, but if something is commercial and utility-scale, it is going to cost accordingly, which will price it out of range to encourage even more residential solar adoption. I'm looking for budget friendly, approved solutions that can be spread to everybody. I want to spread our solar panel love to everybody, and that means the cost has to stay down while hopefully keeping the fires to a bare minimum.
The price for the meter, 2 CTs, tax, and shipping came to $559, but I didn't buy it. I don't have the $ right now. I just scrounged up enough to buy the 4 microinverters and an amp clamp. I need to make some $ first.
 
The price for the meter, 2 CTs, tax, and shipping came to $559, but I didn't buy it. I don't have the $ right now. I just scrounged up enough to buy the 4 microinverters and an amp clamp. I need to make some $ first.
That's not terrible for a singular purchase for prototyping or for our own private system purposes. That's certainly not the kind of cost I can imagine trying to pass onto every installation and be as competitive as I would want to be though. It's also kind of ugly, if you don't believe me, ask the misses, they would probably notice something as ugly as that even if it were tucked away in panel on the side of the house, somehow!
 
Good question, without reading the entire thread , I think it would blow up the portable power unit. I'm almost 100% sure.
You could probably do something weird with a mpp solar AIO like the hv lv2424 or the lvx6048 because they actually can grid tie and supplement the load w grid at same time but then the gt inverter would really be of no use, just run a AIO. But definitely cool thinking. ?
 
That's a great point, and I do believe even the GT inverter I mentioned follows UL-1741 as the video for it shows the slow ramp up of power to the grid (following the UL-1741 spec). BUT.... I also think it goes by sequence of how you power everything on. For instance:

Portable power station has power strip with a 100W light bulb plugged in. Light bulb is on and is getting power supplied to it by power station. Then the GT inverter with a 80W solar panel is plugged in to the same power strip. It tests the impedance successfully and then matches voltage and frequency. It then ramps up power to supplement the portable power station. At the conclusion of the test, the power strip is removed from the power station. Island protection causes the GT inverter to stop supplying power and the light bulb goes off. Very simple test, and I'm not seeing magic smoke. This is all theory and I am just having fun with the thought. What do you think?
My comment was based on the startup process that I understand is required. There is a certain wait period and also a test of the line. If you have a 1000w micro inverter (for example) and it can cause a voltage drop or a frequency shift on the AC power that it sees, it is not seeing a power company type (very stiff) line. I think one manufacturer said something like, "a test to see if the unit could perturb the line". I would guess that it varies from mfg to mfg and from the size of the inverter how much it could try to perturb the line in this testing phase of startup. No real experience but I would suspect you would need several KW of solid output to trick a well designed unit. If I were going to do any testing, I would avoid UL1741 units and use something dumber.

Another comment. I have 9.6kw micro inverter grid tied that is about 250 feet from the house with the main wire run not oversized....since you only see max power for like one or two hours. At my meter the voltage is 245v. At the panel array the voltage when the array is at max output is about 250v, with that 5v being dropped across the 250 foot wire run. What those facts say is that the micro inverter will do whatever, including raising the line voltage, in order to deliver its power to the grid. Your portable power station is trying to old a 120v AC output and has controls to regulate that based on the load. The grid tied feed would look like a negative load and taking the real load toward or to zero. The portable unit would try to back off the output to hold its normal output and would soon be swamped by the grid tie output. Now would it shut down nicely or with damage, who know. Maybe, "it depends", which is always a great answer.
 
My comment was based on the startup process that I understand is required. There is a certain wait period and also a test of the line. If you have a 1000w micro inverter (for example) and it can cause a voltage drop or a frequency shift on the AC power that it sees, it is not seeing a power company type (very stiff) line. I think one manufacturer said something like, "a test to see if the unit could perturb the line". I would guess that it varies from mfg to mfg and from the size of the inverter how much it could try to perturb the line in this testing phase of startup. No real experience but I would suspect you would need several KW of solid output to trick a well designed unit. If I were going to do any testing, I would avoid UL1741 units and use something dumber.

Another comment. I have 9.6kw micro inverter grid tied that is about 250 feet from the house with the main wire run not oversized....since you only see max power for like one or two hours. At my meter the voltage is 245v. At the panel array the voltage when the array is at max output is about 250v, with that 5v being dropped across the 250 foot wire run. What those facts say is that the micro inverter will do whatever, including raising the line voltage, in order to deliver its power to the grid. Your portable power station is trying to old a 120v AC output and has controls to regulate that based on the load. The grid tied feed would look like a negative load and taking the real load toward or to zero. The portable unit would try to back off the output to hold its normal output and would soon be swamped by the grid tie output. Now would it shut down nicely or with damage, who know. Maybe, "it depends", which is always a great answer.
Typical microinverters can only go +/- 10% on their output voltage. Manufacturers recommend that the voltage drop on the line be < 2%.

When overdriving the output of a battery inverter, the inverter will try to regulate the output voltage, and it will dump the excess energy back into the battery. The MOSFET bridge in reverse acts like a bridge rectifier to rectify the AC to DC, and feed it directly into the battery without regulation. The MOSFETs don't care. They can run in reverse as long as the power is small compared to their rating. That's what bi-directional inverters for motor control and regenerative braking are designed to do. It's only an issue if it continues for so long that the battery gets overcharged.

In summary, if the size of the battery inverter is large compared to the size of the grid-tied inverter, and the load is larger than the grid-tied inverter's power alone except for brief intervals of light loading, then it should work flawlessly. As an added protection, it would also be pretty easy to put a relay on the output of the grid-tied inverter that opens if the battery voltage gets too high, to disconnect the grid-tied inverter from the circuit and trigger an alarm, but a good reliable BMS does that automatically anyway.
 
Typical microinverters can only go +/- 10% on their output voltage. Manufacturers recommend that the voltage drop on the line be < 2%.

When overdriving the output of a battery inverter, the inverter will try to regulate the output voltage, and it will dump the excess energy back into the battery. The MOSFET bridge in reverse acts like a bridge rectifier to rectify the AC to DC, and feed it directly into the battery without regulation. The MOSFETs don't care. They can run in reverse as long as the power is small compared to their rating. That's what bi-directional inverters for motor control and regenerative braking are designed to do. It's only an issue if it continues for so long that the battery gets overcharged.

In summary, if the size of the battery inverter is large compared to the size of the grid-tied inverter, and the load is larger than the grid-tied inverter's power alone except for brief intervals of light loading, then it should work flawlessly. As an added protection, it would also be pretty easy to put a relay on the output of the grid-tied inverter that opens if the battery voltage gets too high, to disconnect the grid-tied inverter from the circuit and trigger an alarm, but a good reliable BMS does that automatically anyway.
It is my understanding that a HF inverter's output stage is driven from a fairly high voltage power source, 160v+ DC maybe for a 120v AC output. I can understand how that high voltage DC bus could be pumped up by back feeding the output bridge. I can't understand how that power could make its way back to the battery.
 
It is my understanding that a HF inverter's output stage is driven from a fairly high voltage power source, 160v+ DC maybe for a 120v AC output. I can understand how that high voltage DC bus could be pumped up by back feeding the output bridge. I can't understand how that power could make its way back to the battery.
It depends on the inverter topology. A LF inverter with a transformer is what I was explaining, that is what I was designing and manufacturing in the 1990's. The HF inverter is as you say, the capacitors will receive the energy and boost the bus voltage. At which time, again depending on the topology of the battery converter, it will try to regulate the capacitor bus voltage and send the excess energy to the battery. Some topologies are buck-boost converters to allow full control over the capacitor bus voltage. In which case it could do that and also phase shift and store the energy reactively.

However, if the topology is strictly a boost converter or flyback without any buck regulation, then the capacitor bus will quickly overvoltage and blow up the inverter because it doesn't have the capacity to store the extra energy and there is nowhere for it to go.
 
It depends on the inverter topology. A LF inverter with a transformer is what I was explaining, that is what I was designing and manufacturing in the 1990's. The HF inverter is as you say, the capacitors will receive the energy and boost the bus voltage. At which time, again depending on the topology of the battery converter, it will try to regulate the capacitor bus voltage and send the excess energy to the battery. Some topologies are buck-boost converters to allow full control over the capacitor bus voltage. In which case it could do that and also phase shift and store the energy reactively.

However, if the topology is strictly a boost converter or flyback without any buck regulation, then the capacitor bus will quickly overvoltage and blow up the inverter because it doesn't have the capacity to store the extra energy and there is nowhere for it to go.
Powerjack makes low cost LF inverters (still). Not sure if they would work but you can get them on Ebay.
 
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