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diy solar

Inverter, BMS, Battery Compatibility

rustbuckett

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Aug 24, 2020
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I bought a Growatt SPF 3000TL LVM and would like to know if it will work with these batteries (Evo A123 cells 24V 98Ah 2.6 kwh LFP 8S-5P). I'm afraid that I may have wasted a bunch of money by trying to save money. The manual that comes with the Growatt implies that it will only work with a Growatt BMS which doesn't seem to exist yet. So is there a way that I can safely use those batteries with the Growatt?
 
If you waisted money?
Depends if you already bought the cells...

Their price is not cheap!!
280Ah cell (each 0.9 kWh) is 70-75 USD
8 cost 600+ transport and you get 7 kWh..
Not 2.6

For the BMS, don't worry.
The GroWatt will work with any BMS.
No matter what brand.

3000 watt @ 24v = 125A
It's good practice for China products to over rate them.
For you a 150 or 200A BMS will be fine.

Or a type like chargery or DIYBMS.
They use separate contactors.
Not included.
The rating of the contactors determine the max current.

Most BMS can do half the rating as charge.
Depending on your solar panels it might be needed to have larger BMS.
100A or 2400watt on solar (8*300w) would already require 200A BMS.

Many different flavours (and price), all with their own good and bad.
 
I already bought the cells. They should get here Thursday. So the BMS operates independently of the Inverter/Charger? I guess the RJ45 BMS port on the Growatt is just for monitoring?
 
Most hybrid inverter have connection possible to BMS, don't need it, but possible.

They also don't use it. At all.
Except for display BMS information on the screen.....

RS485, CAN, UART..
Chinese companies are famous for own interpretation of protocols.
Don't expect a BMS just because it have RS485 to actually be able to communicate with the Inverter.

Simple things as baud rate already serous can be problematic..

Then the location of what information goes where...
It's like they heard the themology "RS485" and then decide to write the code them selves, only real compatible is the hardware socket...

Amazing. Even for my inverter the fans have "own design" 4 pin layout... :)

If you really want to use the communication... Prepare for a long journey.

BMS is like airbags in a car.
You don't want it to act.
Normally all is controlled by the MPPT and inverter.
Only then things go wrong the BMS stops charge or discharge to protect the cells.

Besides this, it can provide loads of information about the cells and usage.
That doesn't have to be BMS.

Many different monitoring systems that don't have the emergency protection.

BMS is not intended to monitor but to manage.

As people more and more like to know more in-depth information, the builders provide it.

Inverters/ MPPT don't need that information.
They just care about high and low for the whole pack.
 
The Growatt just needs the proper DC voltage supplied to it and it will work.

The link to your refurbished battery states that it has a BMS.
 
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o_O where from?

Please look at the post I made some time ago
My last order 5 weeks ago was $1350,- include transport at Haomi
I got a real good price :)
I promised not to share the cell price
My DDP transport to Thailand was $ 230....
The 16* 280Ah cells are again perfect.

My price isn't yours..
I order on regular basis, sometimes higher quantity like +80.
That does give it's perks.

Up to you to make a good deal with the sellers.

Xuba gives the best pre-sale service by providing video and good tracking information.
At +/- 10% higher cost.

End product is all from the same factory, bulk production.
None of the sellers will handpick and select the cells.
They are all the same, at the same batch.
As long as they take from the same stock, they don't need to check anything..
All will do quick test to see if defective product.
Xuba is kind enough to show this test to you. (At small cost)

Haomi and Donguan billionaire use brokers for cheapest DDP transport.
It will arrive, without worry due the Alibaba purchase protection.
Tracking information just sucks.
I stopped asking :)
Normally the cells arrive at my home before I get the tracking information :)

Xuba doesn't give this "stress", at small cost.
 
The Growatt just needs the proper DC voltage supplied to it and it will work.

The link to your refurbished battery states that it has a BMS.

Yes, but I didn't understand what the BMS actually does. I didn't understand that it's a safety measure that, if everything is setup correctly, isn't actively in use. I thought that the batteries interfaced with the charger/inverter via the BMS somehow.
 
To be able to measure the cells and do it's emergency shutdown it's placed between the negative lead and negative load.
(Normally you connect the negative load cable to the negative lead/terminal now this site in between)
And have a wire to each cell to monitor and, that's important, do cell Balance.

While Daly can do just 35ma, close to nothing, on a daily basis, cells should go even less out of balance.

Close to nothing can be enough :)

Especially with a new setup, many things can go wrong.
Little bit dirt between terminal and bus-bar, and the Voltage of the cell go crazy, out of balance soon.

Sadly it is not just bad reading info, the voltage is too high or low..
That's the moment you need the BMS the most.
After all confirmed good...
It's passive like airbag, up to the moment one cell goes too old and too far out of balance.
 
I am in a similar situation, I bought a Growatt SPF 3000TL LVM and an overkill BMS (and 280AH cells). My problem is that the BMS has a separate connection for charging and discharging. When in "cell undervoltage" it only interrupts the "discharge" connection. Since the growatt only has one connection to battery it is for charging and discharging. I thought by connecting them together I would be in danger of the "discharge" current passing through the "charge" connection when in low cell voltage protection. When I get to low cell voltage protection, the BMS says charge is active and discharge is blocked, but it in actually fact everything is cut off and the Growatt has no power and shuts down, preventing the system from charging, making it impossible to get out of low voltage. At this point I have to manually charge the batteries with an external charger until the BMS gets out of low cell voltage protection. Is there any way I can get around this ? Thanks
 
Most hybrids do not need battery power to start-up the Mppt (solar charge controller), and with it, preventing the problem all together.

Simple solution is to set the lowest battery voltage higher in the Growatt.
Not discharge till the BMS steps on the emergency brake, but prevent the accident from happening.

Usually 5-10% rest SOC is enough.
For 48v setup, S16, BMS college stops at 2.5v per cell or lower (above 2..0v)
That is inverter voltage of. 40 till 32v.

If the inverter stops at 46-48v, really good enough. Wiggle room.
It's standby power consumption should not be too bad to discharge below 40v.

Battery and power consumption/ generation should be in Balance.
On a normal sunny day you should have like 40-50% solar over capacity.
As many days have overcast.
This is without grid, or the wish to be grid independent.

If you have grid....
Charge the battery with it,!
Set the battery is charge voltage from the grid higher then it is now, above 40v, to prevent the emergency brake.
 
The GroWatt will work with any BMS.
No matter what brand
Hi, what do you mean by that? Sure without direct connection with the correct cut-off voltage. But wouldn't it be better that the invert gets the cut-off from the BMS and ergo from the SOC to avoid over-discharging the battery? I also noted that the Growatt inverter turns off the Solar for just a moment to check battery status under load. In my case this causes some times a shutdown during daytime with enough solar power what is very anoying. Maybe with a direct BMS connection this can be avoided. Any suggestions for a Brand? Overkill or Daly?
 
Hi, what do you mean by that?
The inverter does not NEED BMS, it CAN work with Lead Acid, who doesn't have BMS at all.
Direct result:
BMS does not need to be able to talk to the inverter.
Sure without direct connection with the correct cut-off voltage. But wouldn't it be better that the invert gets the cut-off from the BMS and ergo from the SOC to avoid over-discharging the battery?
No.
Your inverter should be perfectly capable of setting high and low voltage for the whole pack.
It doesn't care for, or look at individual cell voltages.
If you love to live dangerous and use 99.5% of battery capacity, your BMS probably will stop you many times when charge goes above 3.65v, or below 2.0v ( most Daly have standard 2.25 and 3.75v )
Most people don't want to use full capacity. the set as low voltage 46 of 48v and top 56v (S16, 51.2v setup)
Where lifepo4 min/max is 40-58.4v
Charging at 3.5 max will give a little faster fully charged then 3.4 (54.4v)

As you see with those SSC and INVERTER settings, the BMS doesn't even need to act, unless there is cell imbalance.
and that is it's job, cell monitoring, and balancing. Only in case of emergency, act.
I also noted that the Growatt inverter turns off the Solar for just a moment to check battery status under load. In my case this causes some times a shutdown during daytime
My Sorotec Revo II inverters do the same. but only start to do this close to the maximal set charging voltage.
I never had any problems with this, if it would give an overload, the other components are not matched!!
what does shutdown?
the inverter?
or BMS?
or??
Thick rain cloud would do just about same, stop solar power production.


with enough solar power what is very anoying. Maybe with a direct BMS connection this can be avoided. Any suggestions for a Brand? Overkill or Daly?

Easy. if you use below 100A discharge / charge mosfet based is OK (Overkill seems to be a lot higher quality then Daly, more detail on quality testing

All mosfet based do give voltage drop.
Above 100A at 48v (51,2v) systems, it is better to use contactor based BMS.

Don't forget the safety margin
Daly/overkill CAN do 100A but you should NOT use 100A
Maximal spike 100A, normal current used 50-75A.
Most BMS give 50% charge capacity, 100A discharge can do 50A charge.

Daly's warranty is for China OK, for the rest of the globe, requiring a product return that you can not repair (full epoxy) what will cost $35-50 is warranty discouragement. Childish they need to do.
If Overkill is the same? I Don't know.
 
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I bought a Growatt SPF 3000TL LVM and would like to know if it will work with these batteries (Evo A123 cells 24V 98Ah 2.6 kwh LFP 8S-5P). I'm afraid that I may have wasted a bunch of money by trying to save money. The manual that comes with the Growatt implies that it will only work with a Growatt BMS which doesn't seem to exist yet. So is there a way that I can safely use those batteries with the Growatt?
seplos bms's work fine
 
The inverter does not NEED BMS, it CAN work with Lead Acid, who doesn't have BMS at all.
Direct result:
BMS does not need to be able to talk to the inverter.

No.
Your inverter should be perfectly capable of setting high and low voltage for the whole pack.
It doesn't care for, or look at individual cell voltages.
If you love to live dangerous and use 99.5% of battery capacity, your BMS probably will stop you many times when charge goes above 3.65v, or below 2.0v ( most Daly have standard 2.25 and 3.75v )
Most people don't want to use full capacity. the set as low voltage 46 of 48v and top 56v (S16, 51.2v setup)
Where lifepo4 min/max is 40-58.4v
Charging at 3.5 max will give a little faster fully charged then 3.4 (54.4v)

As you see with those SSC and INVERTER settings, the BMS doesn't even need to act, unless there is cell imbalance.
and that is it's job, cell monitoring, and balancing. Only in case of emergency, act.

My Sorotec Revo II inverters do the same. but only start to do this close to the maximal set charging voltage.
I never had any problems with this, if it would give an overload, the other components are not matched!!
what does shutdown?
the inverter?
or BMS?
or??
Thick rain cloud would do just about same, stop solar power production.




Easy. if you use below 100A discharge / charge mosfet based is OK (Overkill seems to be a lot higher quality then Daly, more detail on quality testing

All mosfet based do give voltage drop.
Above 100A at 48v (51,2v) systems, it is better to use contactor based BMS.

Don't forget the safety margin
Daly/overkill CAN do 100A but you should NOT use 100A
Maximal spike 100A, normal current used 50-75A.
Most BMS give 50% charge capacity, 100A discharge can do 50A charge.

Daly's warranty is for China OK, for the rest of the globe, requiring a product return that you can not repair (full epoxy) what will cost $35-50 is warranty discouragement. Childish they need to do.
If Overkill is the same?

My issue is the battery pack doesn’t charge past 3 of 4 lights. I use the battery manufacturer recommendation of 56V and 54.4 float, when I asked if setting the voltage higher would correct the issue they said no 56V should get you to 90-95%. Using a Growatt 1200T DVM MPV. Using USE2 as I couldn’t connect despite the battery manufacturers best efforts. Apparently if it could talk it would use these settings anyway.
 
My issue is the battery pack doesn’t charge past 3 of 4 lights.

How long is a piece of straw? 3 or 4 lengths.

That doesn't tell you much, does it :)

The lights are probably a part from the BMS.

We do not know know how many lights are on de BMS, or their capacity.

A real indication about state of charge (SOC) is the cell voltage.
56v would suggest in S16 setup to be 3.5v per cell.

While that isn't empty, it absolutely isn't fully charged.
If you keep the charge for a few days continuous to 3.5, you might get to 95%.

What many people seem to forget is the absorption phase.

Phase, not a voltage.
And even that is 3.65v.
Daly has standard cut off voltage of 3.75v, and that is OK also.

For health charging the first 80 % of the charge takes 20% of the time.
Consequently, the last 20% takes 80% of the time...
Reaching 3.65v isn't fully charged.
Keeping it at 3.65 for longer period of time will fully charge.

Easy to test.
After you reach 3.65, and you stop the charge, wait 3-4 hours, and measure again...
If it dropped to 3.4, it wasn't fully charged.

Many threads here about charging, battery university website, and lots of other sources.

Now the million dollar question:
Does lifepo4 need to be fully charged?
Do you need it?

Lead acid likes 100%.
Lifepo4 doesn't.
85-90% is just fine.

Lead acid doesn't like discharge below 50%.
Lower discharge will reduce the life cycle.

Lifepo4 doesn't like below 10-15%, but can go to 2.0v without damage.
As there is hardly any AH between 2.0 and 2.5v most BMS use 2.5v as safety. (DALY uses 2.25v)

Do you have enough capacity to do what you want it to do?

Assuming you use your battery as power source at night, and solar during daytime.

Light colours and voltages are a really bad indicator for state of charge.

We know that during charge the voltage is higher then rest, more amperage, bigger difference between charge and rest.

We know 3.65v is full, and 2.0 is empty.

Between 3.2 and 3.4v its a rough indication, where 3.2 is probably less SOC then 3.4v.

3.4v during high charge and 3.2v during high discharge both can have the same SOC.

So even those doesn't tell much.

For capacity Knowledge, a shunt and "smart BMS" are used.
It will take several cycles to determine.
As also BMS know just that 3.65 is full, 2.0 is empty.
The shunt will count the ah that is being used, charge or discharge.

Each cell reacts a little different. With bigger difference between manufacturers.

Even the shunt will have some % wrong.
For enough $$$ you can buy the good ones :)

After a few months of usage the BMS together with the shunt can give a good indication of the state of charge.

3 or 4 lights is impossible to say what the state of charge is, except "most likely more towards full" and "most likely towards empty".

The light indicator uses voltage to measure, and we just saw that this is a really bad indicator.

Your seller doesn't give wrong advice.
I have my units set at 54.2v, and absorption 54.1v.

There is a difference between sensing voltage and current voltage use.

Your BMS measures the sensing voltage, the inverter what it uses.

Cables already make a difference.
With 54.2 I have about 54.8 at the cells.

My inverter doesn't measure fully accurate.

Like a garden hose pressure at the tap, and after xx meter hose..
Different pressure.

It doesn't really go one on one, water pressure and battery voltages and sensing.. gives (I hope) better understanding.

If you aren't short on battery capacity, 3 or 4 lights is just fine.
Lifepo4 doesn't need (or like) 100% charge.

Personally I would set the 2 voltages more close to eachother.

There are a lot of factors that influence the lights, for starters how many there are...
On a scale of 10, I would be worried with 3 or 4.
Scale of 5, a little bit.
Without knowing what voltage the lights have to be 3, or 4 or 5...
And even then..
Voltage, a really bad indication.

The only one we can get quickly, and it does tell something, better then nothing. Not a lot better.
 
How long is a piece of straw? 3 or 4 lengths.

That doesn't tell you much, does it :)

The lights are probably a part from the BMS.

We do not know know how many lights are on de BMS, or their capacity.

A real indication about state of charge (SOC) is the cell voltage.
56v would suggest in S16 setup to be 3.5v per cell.

While that isn't empty, it absolutely isn't fully charged.
If you keep the charge for a few days continuous to 3.5, you might get to 95%.

What many people seem to forget is the absorption phase.

Phase, not a voltage.
And even that is 3.65v.
Daly has standard cut off voltage of 3.75v, and that is OK also.

For health charging the first 80 % of the charge takes 20% of the time.
Consequently, the last 20% takes 80% of the time...
Reaching 3.65v isn't fully charged.
Keeping it at 3.65 for longer period of time will fully charge.

Easy to test.
After you reach 3.65, and you stop the charge, wait 3-4 hours, and measure again...
If it dropped to 3.4, it wasn't fully charged.

Many threads here about charging, battery university website, and lots of other sources.

Now the million dollar question:
Does lifepo4 need to be fully charged?
Do you need it?

Lead acid likes 100%.
Lifepo4 doesn't.
85-90% is just fine.

Lead acid doesn't like discharge below 50%.
Lower discharge will reduce the life cycle.

Lifepo4 doesn't like below 10-15%, but can go to 2.0v without damage.
As there is hardly any AH between 2.0 and 2.5v most BMS use 2.5v as safety. (DALY uses 2.25v)

Do you have enough capacity to do what you want it to do?

Assuming you use your battery as power source at night, and solar during daytime.

Light colours and voltages are a really bad indicator for state of charge.

We know that during charge the voltage is higher then rest, more amperage, bigger difference between charge and rest.

We know 3.65v is full, and 2.0 is empty.

Between 3.2 and 3.4v its a rough indication, where 3.2 is probably less SOC then 3.4v.

3.4v during high charge and 3.2v during high discharge both can have the same SOC.

So even those doesn't tell much.

For capacity Knowledge, a shunt and "smart BMS" are used.
It will take several cycles to determine.
As also BMS know just that 3.65 is full, 2.0 is empty.
The shunt will count the ah that is being used, charge or discharge.

Each cell reacts a little different. With bigger difference between manufacturers.

Even the shunt will have some % wrong.
For enough $$$ you can buy the good ones :)

After a few months of usage the BMS together with the shunt can give a good indication of the state of charge.

3 or 4 lights is impossible to say what the state of charge is, except "most likely more towards full" and "most likely towards empty".

The light indicator uses voltage to measure, and we just saw that this is a really bad indicator.

Your seller doesn't give wrong advice.
I have my units set at 54.2v, and absorption 54.1v.

There is a difference between sensing voltage and current voltage use.

Your BMS measures the sensing voltage, the inverter what it uses.

Cables already make a difference.
With 54.2 I have about 54.8 at the cells.

My inverter doesn't measure fully accurate.

Like a garden hose pressure at the tap, and after xx meter hose..
Different pressure.

It doesn't really go one on one, water pressure and battery voltages and sensing.. gives (I hope) better understanding.

If you aren't short on battery capacity, 3 or 4 lights is just fine.
Lifepo4 doesn't need (or like) 100% charge.

Personally I would set the 2 voltages more close to eachother.

There are a lot of factors that influence the lights, for starters how many there are...
On a scale of 10, I would be worried with 3 or 4.
Scale of 5, a little bit.
Without knowing what voltage the lights have to be 3, or 4 or 5...
And even then..
Voltage, a really bad indication.

The only one we can get quickly, and it does tell something, better then nothing. Not a lot better.
Thank you for the very detailed response this is very helpful. I have a question regarding your settings of “I have my units set at 54.2v, and absorption 54.1” How does this change the share cycle having the Bulk and Float settings so close together? I have seen this mentioned before but haven’t found what the outcome is.

Thanks in advance
 
Thank you for the very detailed response this is very helpful. I have a question regarding your settings of “I have my units set at 54.2v, and absorption 54.1” How does this change the share cycle having the Bulk and Float settings so close together? I have seen this mentioned before but haven’t found what the outcome is.

Thanks in advance
Bulk, float, absorption, "Old terms" for lead acid.

I advise to visit battery university. Com and study a bit on the difference between lead acid and lifepo4 charge (and discharge behaviour and cycles.

Depending on the duration of the charge in some charge controllers the bulk charge duration and absorption phase have different lengths.

Others just do 4 hours bulk, then absorption.

Others go to "tickle charge" once the battery reached 14.4v (lead acid)

There are books to write and books have been written on lead acid charging, where AGM, Gel or Flood makes quite a difference.
Then if its standard or deep cycle.
With that many variables:)

Google for different types of chargers, and you will find many, many different options.

To most people this is old information.
Most have a car battery charger at home and most of them are "smart" or "intelligent".
Just explaining that it can do phases.

Lead acid needs this to stay longer healthy, as the chemistry is unstable.

Heck, letting it bubble, produce explosive gasses, only to get rid of deposit on the lead plates is quite an aggressive approach. (Flooded)
It does help to last the (lead acid) battery way more cycles.

Soon there will be a time that most Solar charge controllers (build in or stand alone) will have a lifepo4 setting.

For "48v" that will be 2, as there are 2 approaches S15 that is 48v and lately more adapted S16, 51.2v.

Lifepo4 doesn't need all those variations.
That's for lead acid.
When it doesn't have a lithium setting, you simply set the 2 (or 3) phases close together.

You will find out quickly enough what works best for your setup.

Ideal is (@S16) 16x3.65v = 58.4v.
100% charge.
We all like to get most of our battery...

Not so ideal as lifepo4 doesn't like fully charged.
It ain't lead acid.

3.5v per cell is usually high enough. 56v.
And even that..
Once a cell reach the 3.5v, the rest capacity to 3.65 is small. It will reach it quickly. Depending on the size of your battery bank and charge capacity, like 10 minutes..(or less) (or a whole lot longer depending on charge voltage and capacity.

Slow and steady.
You don't "need" the last 10- 15%. Topping up to 100% will take more hours then you have sunlight in a daily cycle.

And that is OK.
If you absolutely need the 15% capacity, you should invest in larger capacity battery pack.

In parallel they don't even need to be the same capacity:)
It just adds up.

To understand the "why" and "how":
battery university

Or just accept that it doesn't need to have all those different phases for lifepo4.

Lifepo4 has more benefits from regulated capacity, then regulated voltage for phases.

That wil probably be something for the future generations of solar charge controllers.
 
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