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Inverter overload alarm after grid outage

aalejandro

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Joined
Jun 23, 2021
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Hello, I have an 8K inverter (https://www.deyeinverter.com/product/single-phase-string-inverter/sun7-5-8kg.html).

When the grid is UP everything works perfectly however when we simulate a grid outage so the inverter switches to PV+Battery then it shutdowns with a AC current overload alarm.

The only thing connected to the inverter is the walkin cooler which pulls 16A running, specs here: https://www.tecumseh.com/en/na/products/recip/AWA7515ZXD?fromsearch=1

Anything we could check why its overloading when the equipment is only pulling 16A and the inverter is rated for 34Amps?

Thanks
 
Do you any other loads that you can try with that will draw may be 10 ~ 16A and see what happens?
 
The only thing connected to the inverter is the walkin cooler which pulls 16A running, specs here: https://www.tecumseh.com/en/na/products/recip/AWA7515ZXD?fromsearch=1

Anything we could check why its overloading when the equipment is only pulling 16A and the inverter is rated for 34Amps?

Thanks


"

Locked Rotor Amps (LRA):​

96.8
"

Therein lies your problem. It is normal for motors to draw 5x their nameplate rating for a fraction of a second.

I don't see a surge rating for the inverter, just:

"
Max. AC Output Current(A)35.938.3
"

You need about 22kW surge. Two of my Sunny Island would do that. The lighter weigh high frequency inverters probably need to be larger or more of them paralleled to start such a load.

Some of the people here have used an "easy start" which learns the motor characteristics, starts it more gradually with pulses. Usually for an air conditioner in an RV powered by generator or inverter. Another device might be called "hard start" that is just a capacitor and relay, intended I think to provide more starting torque but doesn't reduce current.

Test out the inverter with refrigerator off, load it with electric heater, stove, oven, water heater, something like that which doesn't have a starting surge.
 
"

Locked Rotor Amps (LRA):​

96.8
"

Therein lies your problem. It is normal for motors to draw 5x their nameplate rating for a fraction of a second.

I don't see a surge rating for the inverter, just:

"
Max. AC Output Current(A)35.938.3
"

You need about 22kW surge. Two of my Sunny Island would do that. The lighter weigh high frequency inverters probably need to be larger or more of them paralleled to start such a load.

Some of the people here have used an "easy start" which learns the motor characteristics, starts it more gradually with pulses. Usually for an air conditioner in an RV powered by generator or inverter. Another device might be called "hard start" that is just a capacitor and relay, intended I think to provide more starting torque but doesn't reduce current.

Test out the inverter with refrigerator off, load it with electric heater, stove, oven, water heater, something like that which doesn't have a starting surge.
I see, I thought the LRA would only matter when the compressor is first started. However we are only interested in keeping the cooler running when the grid fails.

So when the inverter switches from grid to PV+Battery, the compressor can pull the LRA sometimes even thou it was already started already?

With other loads yes it seems to work fine.
 
I see, I thought the LRA would only matter when the compressor is first started. However we are only interested in keeping the cooler running when the grid fails.

So when the inverter switches from grid to PV+Battery, the compressor can pull the LRA sometimes even thou it was already started already?

With other loads yes it seems to work fine.

If motor was already running and inverter picked up the load quickly enough that motor didn't stop, then it ought to keep running.
Relay transfer time is typically 30 milliseconds, so don't expect motor to stop.

Of course, a refrigerator is expected to cycle on and off to regulate temperature, so this isn't going to be a usable system unless inverter can start the motor.

When inverter turns on unsynchronized to the grid which just failed, motor would hit it hard for an instant. I would expect that high current to go away much more quickly than from a stop because motor only has to adjust timing slightly. But this could be the issue, if inverter is protecting itself.

(There are stories of larger grid-synchronous rotating generators that were accidentally connected to grid out of phase rather than in phase. They ripped their mounting bolts out of the concrete.)

The "VA" (volts x amps) of a motor is more than watts, because waveforms are misshapen and current is out of phase with voltage.

The ratings do say,

"

Rated Load Amps (RLA 60 Hz):​

12.5

Max. Continuous Current (MCC in Amps):​

25
"

I'm not clear when it is expected to draw maximum.


AC current is normally specified as RMS, root-mean-square average over a cycle. Perfect sine wave in phase produces PF = 1.0 "Power Factor", same apparent power as actual power that a resistive load would. Any other current waveform results in PF < 1.0, excess current for a given power. It is the higher current which heats things like transistors. The inverter has to protect itself from overheating, and may directly measure current to shut down quickly and prevent damage. Some cheap inverters don't protect themselves and fail.

It seems like your compressor, rated less than half the power of the inverter, ought to be able to keep operating if already running. But it may be the inverter just can't handle that large a motor load.

There is something called "reactive power", which is part of the power factor issue. Waveforms other than sine wave draw excess current during part of the cycle. Reactive power draws current from the supply, then later shoves current back in. The inverter may not be good at handling reactive loads. Motors were designed back when AC power sources were rotating generators. Transistorized inverters were designed to power various loads, but often for consumer applications without large motors.

You're going to need an inverter which can start that compressor. A "Soft start" kit might let a smaller inverter start it, but wouldn't help with this transition from grid to inverter if surge due to out of phase is the problem.
 
If motor was already running and inverter picked up the load quickly enough that motor didn't stop, then it ought to keep running.
Relay transfer time is typically 30 milliseconds, so don't expect motor to stop.

Of course, a refrigerator is expected to cycle on and off to regulate temperature, so this isn't going to be a usable system unless inverter can start the motor.

When inverter turns on unsynchronized to the grid which just failed, motor would hit it hard for an instant. I would expect that high current to go away much more quickly than from a stop because motor only has to adjust timing slightly. But this could be the issue, if inverter is protecting itself.

(There are stories of larger grid-synchronous rotating generators that were accidentally connected to grid out of phase rather than in phase. They ripped their mounting bolts out of the concrete.)

The "VA" (volts x amps) of a motor is more than watts, because waveforms are misshapen and current is out of phase with voltage.

The ratings do say,

"

Rated Load Amps (RLA 60 Hz):​

12.5

Max. Continuous Current (MCC in Amps):​

25
"

I'm not clear when it is expected to draw maximum.


AC current is normally specified as RMS, root-mean-square average over a cycle. Perfect sine wave in phase produces PF = 1.0 "Power Factor", same apparent power as actual power that a resistive load would. Any other current waveform results in PF < 1.0, excess current for a given power. It is the higher current which heats things like transistors. The inverter has to protect itself from overheating, and may directly measure current to shut down quickly and prevent damage. Some cheap inverters don't protect themselves and fail.

It seems like your compressor, rated less than half the power of the inverter, ought to be able to keep operating if already running. But it may be the inverter just can't handle that large a motor load.

There is something called "reactive power", which is part of the power factor issue. Waveforms other than sine wave draw excess current during part of the cycle. Reactive power draws current from the supply, then later shoves current back in. The inverter may not be good at handling reactive loads. Motors were designed back when AC power sources were rotating generators. Transistorized inverters were designed to power various loads, but often for consumer applications without large motors.

You're going to need an inverter which can start that compressor. A "Soft start" kit might let a smaller inverter start it, but wouldn't help with this transition from grid to inverter if surge due to out of phase is the problem.
Thank for your detailed response, if I understood correctly you gave possible causes:

1. In rush current spike if the relay transfer is slow enough and motor has to start again or;
2. When inverters turn up unsynchronized the current goes up for motor to adjust or;
3. Inverter is not able to handle reactive loads

For reasons 1 & 2, if we had another inverter that we can setup as parallel, would this help this scenario?
 
More inverters working together would help with those, even with #3 because it can probably handle some size of reactive load.
Can you get your hands on something with an induction motor about half the size, to test the one inverter you already have? Maybe an air compressor or something like that.

There are other inverters which could be better at starting motor loads.
The one I use is 120V, rated 11 kW surge for 3 seconds. Two of them wired 2s for 120/240V would put out 22 kW. The Europe/rest of world model is 220V so wired 2p would put out 22 kW.


Other brands such as Victron, Outback, Trace with "low frequency" rather than high frequency design are likely to have similar ratings.
 
More inverters working together would help with those, even with #3 because it can probably handle some size of reactive load.
Can you get your hands on something with an induction motor about half the size, to test the one inverter you already have? Maybe an air compressor or something like that.

There are other inverters which could be better at starting motor loads.
The one I use is 120V, rated 11 kW surge for 3 seconds. Two of them wired 2s for 120/240V would put out 22 kW. The Europe/rest of world model is 220V so wired 2p would put out 22 kW.


Other brands such as Victron, Outback, Trace with "low frequency" rather than high frequency design are likely to have similar ratings.
Thank you for all your feedback.

We will try a few things based on all the information.
 
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