Inverter recommendations for 48V off-grid installation
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Hedges
I See Electromagnetic Fields!
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Inverter/charger meaning battery DC to AC, and AC charges battery.
Usually that means grid or generator input charges battery.
This one mentions DC or AC coupling, which should mean grid tied PV inverters can be connected, and this unit will draw power from them to charge battery. Probably uses frequency shift to regulate them, so if GT PV inverters have frequency-watts it can play nice.
You might buy your favorite MPPT SCC to go with it. If same brand they could communicate.
www.altestore.com
Usually that means grid or generator input charges battery.
This one mentions DC or AC coupling, which should mean grid tied PV inverters can be connected, and this unit will draw power from them to charge battery. Probably uses frequency shift to regulate them, so if GT PV inverters have frequency-watts it can play nice.
You might buy your favorite MPPT SCC to go with it. If same brand they could communicate.
Schneider Electric XW Pro Inverter/Chargers
Schneider Electric XW Pro Inverter/Chargers can be used for off grid or grid tied applications. Now with higher power ratings and improved battery management.
www.altestore.com
Zwy
Solar Wizard
Also, you would need a Facility Gateway $655 or Home Gateway $343 for the Pro 6848.
That makes perfect sense - thanks. I would need a PV MPPT charge controller. Schneider has one that talks with the Home Gateway - an 80A/600VDC MPPT for $1076 that would probably work.
Looks like the InsightHome gateway would work for my system.
So, with the SCC and the comm device, the cost is $5020. This provides a good, LF inverter, SCC, and communications with 6800W power, 12000W surge for 60 seconds, 120/240 VAC output, and is stackable up to four units.
One concern is that the MPPT SCC says it works up to 6561 ft elevation, and my place is at 9100 ft. Does anyone know what the issue is with altitude on a SCC?
I may have answered my own question. At higher elevations the MPPT SCC may need to be derated. I'll contact the manufacturer to see what they recommend.
Mr-Sandman
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I have the Schneider XW Pro 6848, MPPT 60a 150v SCC, and Home Insight. They work great together.
Just a few comments to questions that probably already been answered.
1. The Schneider equipment is HEAVY DUTY. It's built like a tank.
2. It's Low frequency and does AC Coupling with frequency control, not many do that.
3. Can push up to 140 amps of charge to a battery bank from an AC source (gen or grid). It has generator current control, on AC2, so you don't overload your generator when running it. You tell it the amps it can put out and it curtails charging to match current load and if load get to high will pull from batteries and help the generator.
4. No built in solar charge controller, but can control as many Schneider MPPT charge controller as you want.
5. Can be ran in a master/slave setup with multiple inverters if needed. I think this works OK now with new firmware and PRO models, BUT this was complained about in the past XW+ models some. I just have one, so can't comment on that.
6. Requires Insight Home or Insight Facility to configure and monitor
7. Is UL listed and grid tie capable. Works with all the major codes, like California Rule 21, etc, etc..
8. Can do load shaving and/or sell to the grid
9. It is a 240/120 Split Phase inverter, built for the US. No external transformers with this.
10. It's probably one of the most advanced inverters on the market. Because of it's advanced features, its not going to win any plug and play or easy to program award. It's complicated, but doable. The manual is pretty good.
I haven't had any issues at all out of mine, but it's pretty new, only had it a month or so now. I think previous generations had some software bugs that caused some users frustration and Schneiders support isn't/wasn't that good. I do think they are working on improving their support and I think the PRO software is pretty solid now. I don't know anything about the performance at altitude. I'm at 650', hopefully it performs better than I do when at 9000' feet
One last thing AltE carries the Schneider gear at a good price and they are running a sale (7% off) right now. Probably hard to beat that. One thing that does suck about the XW's, they are too heavy and have to ship freight.
Just a few comments to questions that probably already been answered.
1. The Schneider equipment is HEAVY DUTY. It's built like a tank.
2. It's Low frequency and does AC Coupling with frequency control, not many do that.
3. Can push up to 140 amps of charge to a battery bank from an AC source (gen or grid). It has generator current control, on AC2, so you don't overload your generator when running it. You tell it the amps it can put out and it curtails charging to match current load and if load get to high will pull from batteries and help the generator.
4. No built in solar charge controller, but can control as many Schneider MPPT charge controller as you want.
5. Can be ran in a master/slave setup with multiple inverters if needed. I think this works OK now with new firmware and PRO models, BUT this was complained about in the past XW+ models some. I just have one, so can't comment on that.
6. Requires Insight Home or Insight Facility to configure and monitor
7. Is UL listed and grid tie capable. Works with all the major codes, like California Rule 21, etc, etc..
8. Can do load shaving and/or sell to the grid
9. It is a 240/120 Split Phase inverter, built for the US. No external transformers with this.
10. It's probably one of the most advanced inverters on the market. Because of it's advanced features, its not going to win any plug and play or easy to program award. It's complicated, but doable. The manual is pretty good.
I haven't had any issues at all out of mine, but it's pretty new, only had it a month or so now. I think previous generations had some software bugs that caused some users frustration and Schneiders support isn't/wasn't that good. I do think they are working on improving their support and I think the PRO software is pretty solid now. I don't know anything about the performance at altitude. I'm at 650', hopefully it performs better than I do when at 9000' feet
One last thing AltE carries the Schneider gear at a good price and they are running a sale (7% off) right now. Probably hard to beat that. One thing that does suck about the XW's, they are too heavy and have to ship freight.
Mr-Sandman - thank you for the detailed comments. I laid down the cash tonight and bought the XW Pro 6848, Home Insight, and the Schneider MPPT 100A 600V SCC. 7% off across the board at AltE. Will supposedly ship Monday and be here whenever the truck arrives. I'll be doing the install myself, and would welcome any advice you have along the way.
My current panel choice is the REC 375W REC375TP2SM72 TwinPeak 2S Mono 72 PERC Solar Panel ($165 at signaturesolar.com). 20 panels would give me a roughly 1250 KWh/month system during the winter months at 480 Voc with a 10S2P setup. I plan on ground mounting using galvanized steel pipe and Hollaender structural fittings. Batteries, since I'm going to leave the cabin unattended 3-5 days/week in sub-freezing weather, will need to be lead-acid, and I've not settled on those yet.
Would welcome any thoughts on the current design.
My current panel choice is the REC 375W REC375TP2SM72 TwinPeak 2S Mono 72 PERC Solar Panel ($165 at signaturesolar.com). 20 panels would give me a roughly 1250 KWh/month system during the winter months at 480 Voc with a 10S2P setup. I plan on ground mounting using galvanized steel pipe and Hollaender structural fittings. Batteries, since I'm going to leave the cabin unattended 3-5 days/week in sub-freezing weather, will need to be lead-acid, and I've not settled on those yet.
Would welcome any thoughts on the current design.
Mr-Sandman
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Awesome, Congrats @jsocolof !!!
Random tips that come to mind.
1. IT"S FREAKING HEAVY! You will need at least 2 grown men to move and lift it.
2. You will need Internet to download new firmware and get everything updated. First thing you should do after you have access to the Insight Home.
3. I would say the most confusing part for me initially was getting the Insight Home configured with a static IP and setup in the insight cloud. Not hard, but was a bit weird, as it has a built in access point, which you use initially, then can connect wireless or hardwired. Their usb stick for URL think is a bit weird. i didn't use that. I could see where this might be frustrating for someone if they don't understand networking a little bit. if you don't have internet for the Insight Home to hook to, you'll just access via it's built in access point while onsite.
4. Did I mention it's Heavy? Make sure the mounting plate is on a solid wall lag bolted into studs.
Glad to answer questions that you may come up with. I'm not expert, but I do have one working.
Random tips that come to mind.
1. IT"S FREAKING HEAVY! You will need at least 2 grown men to move and lift it.
2. You will need Internet to download new firmware and get everything updated. First thing you should do after you have access to the Insight Home.
3. I would say the most confusing part for me initially was getting the Insight Home configured with a static IP and setup in the insight cloud. Not hard, but was a bit weird, as it has a built in access point, which you use initially, then can connect wireless or hardwired. Their usb stick for URL think is a bit weird. i didn't use that. I could see where this might be frustrating for someone if they don't understand networking a little bit. if you don't have internet for the Insight Home to hook to, you'll just access via it's built in access point while onsite.
4. Did I mention it's Heavy? Make sure the mounting plate is on a solid wall lag bolted into studs.
Glad to answer questions that you may come up with. I'm not expert, but I do have one working.
Hedges
I See Electromagnetic Fields!
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If you expand beyond what one SCC can handle, and if daytime AC loads might want to exceed inverter specs, consider AC coupling (since the XW supports that.)
Something like SMA Sunny Boy 5000US. Set to offgrid mode, it would add up to 5kW to available AC, and XW can use that power to charge battery. Sometimes they can be had for a song, used or maybe new in the box. Other inverters which support UL-1741-SA "frequency-watts" should work too.
Or an engine hoist (with extension on boom and ballast on the back.)
Something like SMA Sunny Boy 5000US. Set to offgrid mode, it would add up to 5kW to available AC, and XW can use that power to charge battery. Sometimes they can be had for a song, used or maybe new in the box. Other inverters which support UL-1741-SA "frequency-watts" should work too.
Or an engine hoist (with extension on boom and ballast on the back.)
robby
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Sounds like a sweet system. It's double what my system is and four times more batteries. I guess for a true off grid system you really need several days of extra batteries to cover bad weather. What brand of batteries did you buy?
Mr-Sandman
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@jsocolof I just was thinking back of how I learnt.
Schneider has released several pretty good videos covering their solar gear and features with use cases, etc.. I recommend you spend some time browsing and watching the videos. https://www.youtube.com/c/SESolar/videos
You can also download and start reading the latest installation and user manuals for your new equipment: https://solar.schneider-electric.com/
The Grid Code password for it is: XWproGridCodes. You'll need that and it's not in the manuals. I found it in one of their installer training videos on Youtube. I think you can request it from them on their website, but since THEY published it publicly in a YouTube video, I don't see any harm in posting it here.
Schneider has released several pretty good videos covering their solar gear and features with use cases, etc.. I recommend you spend some time browsing and watching the videos. https://www.youtube.com/c/SESolar/videos
You can also download and start reading the latest installation and user manuals for your new equipment: https://solar.schneider-electric.com/
The Grid Code password for it is: XWproGridCodes. You'll need that and it's not in the manuals. I found it in one of their installer training videos on Youtube. I think you can request it from them on their website, but since THEY published it publicly in a YouTube video, I don't see any harm in posting it here.
Quattrohead
Solar Wizard
Look into these batteries - https://watts247.com/product-category/batteries/low-temp-silicate/
I know nothing about them but will be looking into them when I am ready.
I know nothing about them but will be looking into them when I am ready.
Thank you, Mr-Sandman. I've started going through the videos and they offer a wealth of information. Looking at what I ordered Friday: the 6848 inverter, the 100A/600V SCC, and the InsightHome. Of how much worth are other of the cooperative products, like the power distribution panels (AC or DC), the battery monitor, or the system control panel. From the online descriptions, it is not clear what the AC and DC power distribution panels are for - are they literally just very expensive circuit breaker panels, or do they offer something more? I have used battery monitors in two RV solar systems, and found value - is there something in the InsightHome that offers the same functionality of being able to see charge/discharge rate, estimate state of charge, etc.? Also, is the system control panel something that is needed or desirable, or is the same functionality incorporated into the other components in some capacity?
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I have found references on some MPPT SCCs that state at elevations higher than 1000 M, you need to derate the SCC according to IEC60146. Since I don't want to cough up the > $400 for this standard, does anyone have experience with this? I am at ~2775 M (9100 ft).
Mr-Sandman
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The Schneider breaker panels make for a neat and easier installation. Possibly safer too since it handles the bypass breakers, etc. I choose to not go that route "I can be cheap". I already have 2 panels, I turned one into the critical loads panel by installing 60 amp breaker in it to the output of the XW. Installed a new 60 amp breaker for the XW main input. Moved some circuits around, so the important stuff I wanted on inverter was on the critical loads panel, shut the sub panel feeder breaker off "now my by pass breaker", and turned the XW on.
For the DC side I'm using a din rail breaker box with some DC breakers for the Solar and battery to the SCC.
My batteries have breakers built into them "EG4's" and I have 3, so I'm letting them handle over current protection, everything combines on a 300amp buss bar.
All that said, if. you want a clean install and don't like piece milling things together, the Schneider panels are nice. If I was doing multiple XW's i think I would certainly buy their setup for that, as things get much more complicated.
Schneiders battery monitor is a very expensive battery shunt that talks Xantrex to the other equipment. It gives you SOC for you batteries and allows you to use that to program features in the XW, like when to charge, low battery cut off, etc, etc.... Without it it will use battery voltage to make all those types of decisions. With Lithium you can tell when you batteries are full and dead, but in between, it's a guess. The Battery Monitor allows you and the XW system to know this. I chose to not get it "did I mention I'm cheap sometimes". I bought a simple $50 shunt battery monitor with LCD readout and it works great. Using it I know the SOC, but the XW doesn't, it uses voltage still.
The system control panel is not fully compatible with the XW PRO's. You cannot access all the features the new XW Pro's have from them. I do think they will work and you will be able to monitor and control some functions. They are discontinuing the SCP. I chose to not get one and just use my laptop with the Insist Home. For those that don't keep a laptop handy it's good to have something to see what's going on with the system.
Mr-Sandman
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I wonder what makes them "de-rate" at altitude? It has to be related to thin air and cooling I would think. Maybe someone at high altitude will chime in and give a real world experience with this.
400bird
Solar Wizard
The power distribution panels are really nice. Possibly required for permitting approvals. But basically yes, they are expensive breaker panels.
If you're using lead acid batteries this is probably a good thing to have. If your using lithium, the BMS for the battery will do a better job and isn't needed.
This provides some controls right on the unit. I don't have one, but I always have a running computer or phone to make adjustments if needed. This might come in handy if your system and internet goes down and making an adjustment on the inverter would bring your home power back up. I can't figure out that situation, but I've heard others being up this concern.
InsightHome gives you access to everything the inverter knows. Discharge/charge current or wattage is included. The system does not attempt to guestimate SOC anywhere unless you use their battery monitor. I'd rather trust the BMS's SOC.
As far as I know, nothing additional is available in the SCP. It's more of a legacy product from before the online portals (currently InsightHome, there have been previous versions)
400bird
Solar Wizard
I should add that the InsightHome does support CAN communication with some 3rd party BMSs. Mostly fully assembled, off the shelf, big name (big dollar) batteries.
I have two shunt battery monitors in RVs - one by Victron (~$250), and one generic $35. I like them both, but if I am looking for a remote monitoring capability over WiFi and the cloud, I am thinking the Schneider one may be the best option. And yes, initially since I will be charging in sub-freezing temps, I will have lead-acid batteries and I believe I will need a battery monitor.
Glad to hear it - I won't worry about the SCP.
Are there Single Line Diagrams around from Schneider on how to best use all the equipment? I am not opposed to buying their power distribution panels if I understand how to integrate them into the system and they provide value. Like the DC panel - is it just used to shut off the PV array, or does it supply other needs? And for the AC side, I will have a house 240 VAC breaker panel that ordinarily I would just feed off the L1/L2 legs off the inverter, but does the AC PDP add some value?
