Is this 12V battery better than Battle Born?

Kish

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Just a quick point about 1. (Recommended Charge Current 20 A):

Yes, you're welcome to use whatever charge current you want. My point is that if you continuously charge above 20A, and then try to make a warranty claim due to failure, they will deny it because you went against the spec/recommendation. If you go above the spec, you're on your own.
Whether or not the cells can handle > 20A regularly is another story (it probably can, 20A is pretty low for 100Ah cells). Without access to the cell datasheet, we cannot verify.

So much for that "7-year warranty". My guess is they'll do anything to deny warranty repair/replacement.

in my opinion it is not the BMS that should be protecting the wire, the wire should have an overcurrent protection device (fuse or breaker) close to battery positive, and should be protected regardless of what occurs with the BMS. At least this is what I would do.
100% agreed. But remember this is marketed as a drop-in 12V replacement for lead acid "Deep Cycle Battery".
They even tout: Capacity @ 20A 300 Min 🤦‍♂️ .
Don't count on your average Joe to be as educated as us forum members.
 
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cinergi

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I'm emailing Min @SOK right now.

BTW I wonder if the low temp disconnect listed at 23 is simply a typo (transposition of "3" and "2"). I'll get answers.
 

wtrjock

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I just opened the box on the 200ah version and it says recommended max charge current up to 50amps. The sinopoly dataset shows continuous 66amps for the cells.
 

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Kish

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I just opened the box on the 200ah version and it says recommended max charge current up to 50amps. The sinopoly dataset shows continuous 66amps for the cells.

If they do indeed use Sinopoly cells, and yet they recommend max charge current up to 50A, then likely BMS is the culprit here.
They want you to stay well under 50A do avoid any damage. Thus the 20A recommendation for daily use.

Either that or they are using "grade C" cells that are damaged and cannot withstand high charging currents.
 

cinergi

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OK, as I suspected, simple documentation errors and whatnot. Here are relevant excerpts from Min's response to me:

* The battery discharge cut-off voltage at about 10V, but we can not set exactly at 10V, it's a range from 9.9V~10.2V, we discussed a lot with the battery cells manufacturer, finally we set at this number. The BMS cut off at 10.1V, the cells would still have about 8%~12% capacity.

* For the 100ah battery, the recommend current on the spec sheet is 20A.but we mark it on the website, the maximum charge current is 50A, we think 20A is a little bit low for most customers. the BMS we rate: charge Current is 50A, discharge current is 100A, but we design it charge current is 140A~150A, discharge current is 140A~150A
if the charge or discharge current over 150A, the BMS would be cut off in 10 or 15 minutes.But we don't suggest customers do like this, it would short the cycles life of the battery cells.
* [regarding warranty] No, of course not, charge or discharge under 100A would be no issue on warranty. we don't play game on words.
* 320amps is peak current, for example, you connect the battery with 5000watts inverter, and plug in a lot loads, the current up to 320A, it would cut off in few seconds. But if the loads current is about 150A, the BMS will cut off in about 10 or 15 minutes.
* [Regarding temp cutoff] Sorry,we will update this, sorry about this mistake.
* The spec sheet about LVDC > 8.0V is wrong and will be fixed.


By the way, the batteries are from GFB (Ganfeng Lithium), not Sinopoly. They link the spec sheets:

206Ah spec attached (he emailed it to me)
 

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cinergi

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I just opened the box on the 200ah version and it says recommended max charge current up to 50amps. The sinopoly dataset shows continuous 66amps for the cells.

Don't confuse the 206Ah battery with the 200Ah cells. The 200Ah cells are NOT what's used inside the 206Ah battery (see my previous post for spec sheet)
 

wtrjock

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Great info thank you. Seems like SOK is a smaller company and making some mistakes, but still a good value. I am glad that Min is responsive to feedback. At the cost of the cells, I figured the BMS and case were close to Free. The previous datasheet said Sinopoly and the package shipped from SINO-US in Hawthorne, CA so I figured they were Sinopoly cells. I should have opened the case before I installed the battery.
 

Kish

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* The battery discharge cut-off voltage at about 10V, but we can not set exactly at 10V, it's a range from 9.9V~10.2V, we discussed a lot with the battery cells manufacturer, finally we set at this number. The BMS cut off at 10.1V, the cells would still have about 8%~12% capacity.

Three things:
1. 10.1V is still too low. Most people won't realistically go lower than 11V on LiFePO4, or an absolute minimum of 10.5V.
2. Assuming that if you do decide to go to 10.1V:
If at 10.1V the cells "still have 8%~12% capacity", does does mean that the actual capacity of the battery, assuming 10.1V cutoff, is (100 Ah * 88%) = 88 Ah? (likely)
Or are these actually 113 Ah cells that they de-rate 88% to 100Ah to be used until 10.1V? (unlikely)

3. The spec sheet for the 100Ah cell even say cutoff at 2.5V:
Screenshot from 2020-09-10 22-03-52.png

2.0V is only "safe" if your battery temp is < -20C:
Screenshot from 2020-09-10 22-04-47.png
 

Dzl

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My point is that if you continuously charge above 20A, and then try to make a warranty claim due to failure, they will deny it because you went against the spec/recommendation. If you go above the spec, you're on your own.

I think you are misunderstanding what Recommended Charge Current means.


I just peaked at the spec's. The line below the "recommended charge current: 20A" is "max charge current: 100A"

This is inline with what I stated before, about cells manufactures having a maximum charge current spec of usually 1C and a recommended (often called "standard") charge current spec of 0.2C-0.5C. This is also inline with common recommendations given on this forum and what people are referring to when they talk about "fractional C" charging/discharging.

For reference:
Brand (capacity)​
Max Continuous Charge Rate (current)​
Recommended Charge Rate (current)​
CALB CA (100 Ah)1C (100A)0.3C (30A)
Sinopoly (100 Ah)2C (100A)0.3C (30A)
Winston (100 Ah)3C (100A)0.5C (50A)
EVE (105 Ah)1C (105A)0.5C (53A)

Long story short, this specific spec isn't outside of the norm, and shouldn't invalidate any warranty if its worth anything. The big question is, is the warranty worth its salt or just a false sense of security. Battleborn has been around long enough for people to develop some trust in them, this company is one of many new kids on the block, their warranty and support is untested.
 

gripex

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Looking to use the 200ah version of this battery for camping and connect it to an older agm battery box.

would i be able to charge it with a standard car battery charger (2 amp, 12 amp and 75 amp settings)? i dont care about charging speed

and its ok to connect this battery to my agm battery box with jumper cables? (in order to increase the capacity of battery box)

and ok to charge the 200ah battery with car alternator?

including pics of my charger and my battery box. thanksIMG_0693.jpgIMG_0694.jpg
 
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gripex

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looking at the renogy DC to DC chargers, which rating is best for this 200ah battery? 20A? or can a 30 40 or 60 be used?

thanks
 

Forbisher

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Looking to use the 200ah version of this battery for camping and connect it to an older agm battery box

and its ok to connect this battery to my agm battery box with jumper cables? (in order to increase the capacity of battery box)

and ok to charge the 200ah battery with car alternator
Connecting a LFP battery to an AGM battery is a really bad idea if that is what you are asking.
Also best you start a new thread rather than tagging onto this SOK battery thread.
 

cinergi

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Three things:
1. 10.1V is still too low. Most people won't realistically go lower than 11V on LiFePO4, or an absolute minimum of 10.5V.
2. Assuming that if you do decide to go to 10.1V:
If at 10.1V the cells "still have 8%~12% capacity", does does mean that the actual capacity of the battery, assuming 10.1V cutoff, is (100 Ah * 88%) = 88 Ah? (likely)
Or are these actually 113 Ah cells that they de-rate 88% to 100Ah to be used until 10.1V? (unlikely)

3. The spec sheet for the 100Ah cell even say cutoff at 2.5V:
View attachment 22427

2.0V is only "safe" if your battery temp is < -20C:
View attachment 22428

1) Don't LiFePO4 BMSes usually cut off at 2.5 VPC? That's all I've ever seen.
2) No. It's not helpful to speculate. Let's use some facts. Watch my video linked in this thread. I hit 100 Ah at 11.94 volts using a 0.5c load test.
3) See #1 - I see nothing abnormal with these numbers.
 

Dzl

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1) Don't LiFePO4 BMSes usually cut off at 2.5 VPC? That's all I've ever seen.

Its a relatively common value for non-configurable BMSes. It is at the very low end of the normal range, but acceptable, particularly for a non-configurable BMS. 2.5V per cell is what is usually defined as 0% SOC by cell manufacturers (3.65V as 100%), cell manufactures generally recommend 10%-90% SOC bandwidth, and people often set the low voltage limit around 5-20% SOC.
 

cinergi

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Sure - so, perfectly normal and not "too low" ...

Again (for everyone else's sake), the BMS is there to protect the battery (last line of defense), not to turn off your inverter every time you run empty. Set the inverter to cut off at a higher voltage. One generally shouldn't be exercising the BMS cutoff with any regularity. That would be a design flaw IMHO.
 

Dzl

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Sure - so, perfectly normal and not "too low" ...

In my opinion, yes, within the range of 'normal' (too low for some peoples' liking, myself included, but not outside the normal range). The Daly BMS disconnects at 2.5V I believe.


Again (for everyone else's sake), the BMS is there to protect the battery (last line of defense), not to turn off your inverter every time you run empty. Set the inverter to cut off at a higher voltage. One generally shouldn't be exercising the BMS cutoff with any regularity. That would be a design flaw IMHO.

I agree (at least so far as this model (built-in FET based BMS) goes). Unless the BMS is setup to control the inverter and chargers directly (as with the SBMS0 or a higher end BMS), the BMS should not be your primary means of disconnection / bandwidth limiting, or overcurrent protection.
 
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