Japan’s SUPERB vaccine ethics…USA, Europe, Oz Governments: please TAKE NOTE

[noenegdod]

Japan has had the lowest rates of covid infection, hospitalization and death, anywhere. Here is why IMO: Honesty.

 

[MurphyGuy]

Japan's success is due to the fact that their population has a good understanding of science.. it really is as simple as that.

Scroll down the list to the next in line, and we find Singapore is next strongest and also has a ridiculously low level of covid problems.

Taiwan, which is number 4 on the list of highest ranking for science education, also has a ridiculously low covid rate.

Further down the list, way down.. you might have to scroll the page down, we find the USA, where the average person is a moron.. where 1 in 4 people don't understand such basic science that the Earth revolves around the Sun.. and where 70% of the population believes in magical invisible sky fairies..

Of course, the virus doesn't care how much a specific population knows about science.. variables such as population density, government resources, geography, and other attributes all have an effect.. but the pattern seems to hold. The better educated the population is with science scores, the fewer covid problems they have.

 

[Bob B]

In the early 70's, I had a house in southern Japan for a couple of years. It was only about 25 miles from Nagasaki.

The social norms were different in that area than anywhere else I have been in the world. They had an extreme respect for the "personal space" of others.
Many of the things in their culture are almost impossible to understand for the western mind. They were a closed society for centuries ..... I could go on for a long time about the difference in the culture and their ethic ... but most of it wouldn't be relevant.

While northern Japan is a completely different place .... I had a hard time understanding the atrocities the Japanese military committed after getting to know the people in southern Japan.
I don't think they had any great love of science .... they just had completely different customs and social norms from western societies.

 

[MurphyGuy]

In the early 70's, I had a house in southern Japan for a couple of years. It was only about 25 miles from Nagasaki.

The social norms were different in that area than anywhere else I have been in the world. They had an extreme respect for the "personal space" of others.
Many of the things in their culture are almost impossible to understand for the western mind. They were a closed society for centuries ..... I could go on for a long time about the difference in the culture and their ethic ... but most of it wouldn't be relevant.

While northern Japan is a completely different place .... I had a hard time understanding the atrocities the Japanese military committed after getting to know the people in southern Japan.
I don't think they had any great love of science .... they just had completely different customs and social norms from western societies.

Science and morality are two different measuring sticks, and while they do have an affect on each other, it is limited in scope and application.

The Nazi's were fantastic scientists in their day.. the best in the world at that time.. and yet I think the rest speaks for itself on that note.

The general population of Japan has a far better understanding of science than the general population of the USA. Japan's problem isn't cultural or scientific, its geographic due to the small land area.

 

[Bob B]

Science and morality are two different measuring sticks, and while they do have an affect on each other, it is limited in scope and application.

The Nazi's were fantastic scientists in their day.. the best in the world at that time.. and yet I think the rest speaks for itself on that note.

The general population of Japan has a far better understanding of science than the general population of the USA. Japan's problem isn't cultural or scientific, its geographic due to the small land area.

While I believe schools are failing us now and the knowledge of science it hasn't always been that way .... a significant number of adults in the US have as good an understanding of science as the rest of the world.

I'm not talking about moral issues in Japan .... I am talking about social and cultural difference that would affect things like social distancing .... we have to be schooled to do that while they do it automatically. They would get the vaccine because they didn't want to be responsible for infecting someone else .... this is not understanding the science of Covid ... it is that they relate to each other in a totally different way that can't be understood without being exposed to it.

When they work ... they are much more focused on working as a team .... I have seen 10 or 15 of them work on a project in a way that seemed impossible for that many people to work on it simultaneously .... they would manage to do it fast an in an unbelievably coordinated way.
Their social thinking is much more focused on the "greater good" .... while in western society we have more value on the individual.

 

[MurphyGuy]

While I believe schools are failing us now and the knowledge of science it hasn't always been that way .... a significant number of adults in the US have as good an understanding of science as the rest of the world.

From my experience, and my experience in dealing with my own child, our schools are not failing us.. It is the parents that are failing their children, not the schools.. But no parent complaining about their child's ignorance is ever EVER going to admit their own fault(s). Most of these parents can't even admit to their child being behind or having a deficit in some area.

I see the kids in my 8 year old's school.. I see how their parents raise them and I'm not optimistic. These parents bury their kids in any electronics that keep the kid busy.. video games, television, anything that keeps the child off their backs.

And while your statement of "a significant number of adults have good understanding of science", is mostly true, it is also mostly meaningless. Within a country of over 300 million, there's going to be a significant number of everything from geniuses to serial killers. The percentage is what's more important, especially when we consider that everyone has a right to vote.. percentage is really the only thing that is important on that level, and the percentage of adults with any reasonable level of scientific understanding is alarmingly low.

NPR study: 1 in 4 adults don't understand the earth revolves around the sun:

1 In 4 Americans Thinks The Sun Goes Around The Earth, Survey Says

Twenty-six percent in a survey of 2,200 people conducted in 2012 answered that the Sun revolves around the Earth, and fewer than half correctly answered a question about human origins.

www.npr.org

Sorry man, I'm a science guy.. I'm an engineer.. I can't talk history, English literature, cooking, art, legal codes, or a lot of other subjects.. but I can talk science, and while I don't expect the average person to have an engineering or science degree, they should know the basics... and the fact is, it is rare for anyone to be able to even tell you the four fundamental forces, or the difference between a covalent bond and an ionic bond, or even the difference between a molecule and an element.. I was talking with someone at the hardware store about covid and mentioned Brownian Motion, and they just stared at me with a blank look on their face because I had already lost them.

But ask them what a celebrity did yesterday or a sports team, and they'll brighten right up with comments.

I don't expect the average person to understand stellar nucleosynthesis, or the details of a neutron star.. I don't expect them to explain how spectroscopy works, but I do expect them to understand the basic grade school relationship between the sun and the planet they live on.

I'm not talking about moral issues in Japan .... I am talking about social and cultural difference that would affect things like social distancing .... we have to be schooled to do that while they do it automatically. They would get the vaccine because they didn't want to be responsible for infecting someone else .... this is not understanding the science of Covid ... it is that they relate to each other in a totally different way that can't be understood without being exposed to it.

I understand your argument here.. but I think its worth pointing out that a significant percentage of our population doesn't seem to care if they harm someone else, or they simply don't believe it.. We have an entire demographic that militantly resists anything the scientifically based medical research is saying. And they don't just resist, they've turned it into an enemy.

That is not normal behavior.. it is, at its core, irrational in every sense.

 

[Samsonite801]

They would get the vaccine because they didn't want to be responsible for infecting someone else ....

Yeah maybe if it wasn't a 'leaky vaccine' that would be perceived as the best thing to do. With the leaky vaccines, the vaccinated people may unknowingly have it and hand it over to other people without ever suspecting they could be a carrier.

 

[MurphyGuy]

Yeah maybe if it wasn't a 'leaky vaccine' that would be perceived as the best thing to do. With the leaky vaccines, the vaccinated people may unknowingly have it and hand it over to other people without ever suspecting they could be a carrier.

Still much better than no vaccine.

 

[Samsonite801]

Still much better than no vaccine.

Better for who?

 

[MurphyGuy]

Better for who?

Everyone...

 

[Samsonite801]

Everyone...

Not true, you can't speak for everyone.

If I don't take the leaky vaccine, and I get Covid, then I will see the signals and symptoms (might be at my own risk of death), but I will see the signals, go home and quarantine myself, which helps not get everyone else sick.

On the other hand, if I take the leaky vaccine, I will never know I contracted Covid if I did, go out and live the dream just like every day, maybe infect 100s of other people whom may or may not be vaccinated, which continues the fiasco.

I guess it depends on which side of the fence you sit on, like protect me, or potentially sacrifice me to offer a better potential of protecting more people other than self.

Either way to me it does not matter, but there are 2 sides to every coin. I have natural immunity so I will go about my normal life now. If I get it again, I will see the signs and symptoms, go home, and stay away from people like I always do whenever I get sick.

 

[MurphyGuy]

While I believe schools are failing us now and the knowledge of science it hasn't always been that way .... a significant number of adults in the US have as good an understanding of science as the rest of the world.

Read the reply below and tell me if you want to stick to the spirit of that statement...

You can't teach these people 15 to 20 years of basic fundamental science comprehension with a few forum postings.

Not true, you can't speak for everyone.

If I don't take the leaky vaccine, and I get Covid, then I will see the signals and symptoms (might be at my own risk of death), but I will see the signals, go home and quarantine myself, which helps not get everyone else sick.

On the other hand, if I take the leaky vaccine, I will never know I contracted Covid if I did, go out and live the dream just like every day, maybe infect 100s of other people whom may or may not be vaccinated, which continues the fiasco.

I guess it depends on which side of the fence you sit on, like protect me, or potentially sacrifice me to offer a better potential of protecting more people other than self.

Either way to me it does not matter, but there are 2 sides to every coin. I have natural immunity so I will go about my normal life now. If I get it again, I will see the signs and symptoms, go home, and stay away from people like I always do whenever I get sick.

 

[Samsonite801]

Read the reply below and tell me if you want to stick to the spirit of that statement...

You can't teach these people 15 to 20 years of basic fundamental science comprehension with a few forum postings.

Theres more to life than science right? You should know this if your title is true 'GOD ALMIGHTY'...

 

[MurphyGuy]

Theres more to life than science right?

Yes there is, but not when we're dealing with a virus.

You should know this if your title is true 'GOD ALMIGHTY'...

LOL.

 

[Bob B]

From my experience, and my experience in dealing with my own child, our schools are not failing us.. It is the parents that are failing their children, not the schools.. But no parent complaining about their child's ignorance is ever EVER going to admit their own fault(s). Most of these parents can't even admit to their child being behind or having a deficit in some area.

I see the kids in my 8 year old's school.. I see how their parents raise them and I'm not optimistic. These parents bury their kids in any electronics that keep the kid busy.. video games, television, anything that keeps the child off their backs.

And while your statement of "a significant number of adults have good understanding of science", is mostly true, it is also mostly meaningless. Within a country of over 300 million, there's going to be a significant number of everything from geniuses to serial killers. The percentage is what's more important, especially when we consider that everyone has a right to vote.. percentage is really the only thing that is important on that level, and the percentage of adults with any reasonable level of scientific understanding is alarmingly low.

NPR study: 1 in 4 adults don't understand the earth revolves around the sun:

1 In 4 Americans Thinks The Sun Goes Around The Earth, Survey Says

Twenty-six percent in a survey of 2,200 people conducted in 2012 answered that the Sun revolves around the Earth, and fewer than half correctly answered a question about human origins.

www.npr.org

Sorry man, I'm a science guy.. I'm an engineer.. I can't talk history, English literature, cooking, art, legal codes, or a lot of other subjects.. but I can talk science, and while I don't expect the average person to have an engineering or science degree, they should know the basics... and the fact is, it is rare for anyone to be able to even tell you the four fundamental forces, or the difference between a covalent bond and an ionic bond, or even the difference between a molecule and an element.. I was talking with someone at the hardware store about covid and mentioned Brownian Motion, and they just stared at me with a blank look on their face because I had already lost them.

But ask them what a celebrity did yesterday or a sports team, and they'll brighten right up with comments.

I don't expect the average person to understand stellar nucleosynthesis, or the details of a neutron star.. I don't expect them to explain how spectroscopy works, but I do expect them to understand the basic grade school relationship between the sun and the planet they live on.

I understand your argument here.. but I think its worth pointing out that a significant percentage of our population doesn't seem to care if they harm someone else, or they simply don't believe it.. We have an entire demographic that militantly resists anything the scientifically based medical research is saying. And they don't just resist, they've turned it into an enemy.

That is not normal behavior.. it is, at its core, irrational in every sense.

I understand your arguments about science .... and parents. I think there is plenty of blame to go around when it comes to the current state of our education system.

I really think that social and cultural difference are the main driver for the high vaccination and low covid rates in Japan.

Yeah maybe if it wasn't a 'leaky vaccine' that would be perceived as the best thing to do. With the leaky vaccines, the vaccinated people may unknowingly have it and hand it over to other people without ever suspecting they could be a carrier.

I was speaking more to the motivations of the Japanese people .... I'm not trying to argue that there are no side effects from the vaccines .... or that everyone should get it. I personally think there are some who have good scientific reasons for not getting vaccinated.

 

[MurphyGuy]

I understand your arguments about science .... and parents. I think there is plenty of blame to go around when it comes to the current state of our education system.

The schools are doing their job.. I was very worried about that when my child started but my concerns have been for nothing. No.. I'm not happy with every single thing, who would be right? But there is nothing alarming. I started off thinking that because I was in the middle of a sea of bible thumping trump supporters that they were going to sneak religion into the school or some other right wing vice.. When that didn't materialize, (and I was on that like a hawk), I started to think I had it backwards and they were going to be teaching crazy progressive liberal crap.. But that didn't materialize either... I've since come to the conclusion that the entire issue is just another false propaganda campaign launched by the radical right wing.
Yeah, there's a little bit of right wing(ish) stuff, and there's a little bit of liberal baloney too.. but it is all legitimate, and if I'm being fair about it, pretty tough to avoid if your job is to teach a child and remain honest with the teachings.

I really think that social and cultural difference are the main driver for the high vaccination and low covid rates in Japan.

I disagree, and I'll tell you why..

There is no social or cultural differences between my neighbor and I. We are both hunters, both have guns, both have off road toys, we both work on things around our houses, we're both married and have children, our houses are about equal in value, we're both white and we're within 3 years of age with each other.... In fact, his wife has some of the same Ukrainian roots as my wife.

My neighbors are hard-core anti-vaxxers...

The biggest difference between us is that my wife and I are both educated and he (they) are not.. I almost said I'm educated and he's a blue collar worker, but that would have been inaccurate since I was both an administrator/manager and a machine builder.. In fact, I've spent more time tools in my hands than I have a keyboard.

At the end of the day, the only significant difference between us is that I'm educated in the sciences.. In fact, even the pew research stats show that education is the leading factor in vaccination attitudes.

Education is now a bigger factor than race in desire for COVID-19 vaccine

Results from a USC study show that adults with more education are more likely to get a COVID-19 vaccine and to believe in its safety and effectiveness.

news.usc.edu

COVID-19 vaccination and intent among younger adults by education U.S. 2021 | Statista

As of May 2021, whether adults aged 18-39 would or would not get a COVID-19 vaccination varied greatly by education level.

www.statista.com

10 facts about Americans and coronavirus vaccines

As the drive to inoculate more people continues, here are 10 facts about Americans and COVID-19 vaccines.

www.pewresearch.org

I am not a doctor, and my scientific education is not rooted in biology or medicine, this is why I don't participate in the silly discussions of the finer details of the virus.. I recognize it is not my area, and while it can be interesting, I'm not going to read any real virus science that I'm going to comprehend.. Oh sure, I'll understand the words, but the comprehension and value of those words will be of little use without 6 or 8 years of subject specific education behind me.

Its like me trying to explain the functional differences between ionizing radiation and non ionizing radiation at the atomic level and why one photon of light is harmless while another (exactly the same) photon can kill you. You would hear the words, you would understand the English, but you wouldn't comprehend the physics involved without years of specialized education, and more mathematics than I care to think about.

At the end of the day, those who work with science, tend to trust science.. Science is always your safest bet.. it is not always the correct bet as science has gotten things wrong, but it always your safest bet. Anything else is a 50/50 flip of a coin.

I was speaking more to the motivations of the Japanese people .... I'm not trying to argue that there are no side effects from the vaccines .... or that everyone should get it. I personally think there are some who have good scientific reasons for not getting vaccinated.

I agree there are always exceptions.... and I also agree that there are lots of factors that affect vaccination rates as measured through various demographics, but educational level seems to be the biggest, by far.

 

[Bob B]

The schools are doing their job.. I was very worried about that when my child started but my concerns have been for nothing. No.. I'm not happy with every single thing, who would be right? But there is nothing alarming. I started off thinking that because I was in the middle of a sea of bible thumping trump supporters that they were going to sneak religion into the school or some other right wing vice.. When that didn't materialize, (and I was on that like a hawk), I started to think I had it backwards and they were going to be teaching crazy progressive liberal crap.. But that didn't materialize either... I've since come to the conclusion that the entire issue is just another false propaganda campaign launched by the radical right wing.
Yeah, there's a little bit of right wing(ish) stuff, and there's a little bit of liberal baloney too.. but it is all legitimate, and if I'm being fair about it, pretty tough to avoid if your job is to teach a child and remain honest with the teachings.


I disagree, and I'll tell you why..

There is no social or cultural differences between my neighbor and I. We are both hunters, both have guns, both have off road toys, we both work on things around our houses, we're both married and have children, our houses are about equal in value, we're both white and we're within 3 years of age with each other.... In fact, his wife has some of the same Ukrainian roots as my wife.

My neighbors are hard-core anti-vaxxers...

The biggest difference between us is that my wife and I are both educated and he (they) are not.. I almost said I'm educated and he's a blue collar worker, but that would have been inaccurate since I was both an administrator/manager and a machine builder.. In fact, I've spent more time tools in my hands than I have a keyboard.

At the end of the day, the only significant difference between us is that I'm educated in the sciences.. In fact, even the pew research stats show that education is the leading factor in vaccination attitudes.

Education is now a bigger factor than race in desire for COVID-19 vaccine

Results from a USC study show that adults with more education are more likely to get a COVID-19 vaccine and to believe in its safety and effectiveness.

news.usc.edu

COVID-19 vaccination and intent among younger adults by education U.S. 2021 | Statista

As of May 2021, whether adults aged 18-39 would or would not get a COVID-19 vaccination varied greatly by education level.

www.statista.com

10 facts about Americans and coronavirus vaccines

As the drive to inoculate more people continues, here are 10 facts about Americans and COVID-19 vaccines.

www.pewresearch.org

I am not a doctor, and my scientific education is not rooted in biology or medicine, this is why I don't participate in the silly discussions of the finer details of the virus.. I recognize it is not my area, and while it can be interesting, I'm not going to read any real virus science that I'm going to comprehend.. Oh sure, I'll understand the words, but the comprehension and value of those words will be of little use without 6 or 8 years of subject specific education behind me.

Its like me trying to explain the functional differences between ionizing radiation and non ionizing radiation at the atomic level and why one photon of light is harmless while another (exactly the same) photon can kill you. You would hear the words, you would understand the English, but you wouldn't comprehend the physics involved without years of specialized education, and more mathematics than I care to think about.

At the end of the day, those who work with science, tend to trust science.. Science is always your safest bet.. it is not always the correct bet as science has gotten things wrong, but it always your safest bet. Anything else is a 50/50 flip of a coin.



I agree there are always exceptions.... and I also agree that there are lots of factors that affect vaccination rates as measured through various demographics, but educational level seems to be the biggest, by far.

But ... in all that ... You are relating to your own experiences ... and your own understanding of culture in the US.
Without experiencing first hand how much different people in other countries see things because of their cultural norms, it is hard to understand the big difference in what motivates them.

In the case of you and your neighbor ... there is probably more going on than his knowledge of science ... Maybe he knows some things you don't know....
Just kidding .... don't go off on me over a little humor.

 

[MurphyGuy]

But ... in all that ... You are relating to your own experiences ... and your own understanding of culture in the US.
Without experiencing first hand how much different people in other countries see things because of their cultural norms, it is hard to understand the big difference in what motivates them.

Well you're right.. I'm not intimately familiar with every culture or country.. But I do have some experience.. My wife is from Ukraine and is a Russian.. She speaks 5 languages fluently.. Seven actually but she won't admit to the other two because its broken.. Her extended family is spread out all over eastern Europe.

So yes, you are correct in that different cultures have different motivations.. and you may find it difficult to believe this, but when it comes to matters of science, education still rules supreme.

Go look up the stats of any country or culture and you'll find that the educated carry higher vaccination rates.

You are correct, and as I said, lots of attributes come into play on whether someone is vaccinated or not.. but education is the biggest in general.

Of course, none of that means the guy listening to tunes in his beater vehicle with $2000 rims and a gun under the seat in the middle of Detroit is, or isn't, vaccinated.. but the statistics don't lie in this case. Feel free to look up other countries.

I find that setting my VPN to another country and making Google and DuckDuckGo think I'm searching in that country, brings better results.

In the case of you and your neighbor ... there is probably more going on than his knowledge of science ... Maybe he knows some things you don't know....
Just kidding .... don't go off on me over a little humor.

You know, the funny thing is, their entire family just had Covid.. For two weeks I was calling him every day asking if he needed anything. Had to take care of the chickens and give his dog a bath in the middle of winter because it rolled in deer crap.. They were in rough shape over there.. a hair's breath from going to the hospital.. He lost 35 pounds.. his wife, I swear.. turned ghost white/gray for like 3 days.. I've never seen anything like it.. I usually get red and puffy when I'm sick.. she looked like the Syth (Sith?) from Star Wars.

They recovered.. still recovering after 3 weeks now.. Husband and I talked and he said she broke out every "essential oil" she had in her bag..
I'm like "Yeah baby! You go Essential Oils!".. But I know him.. and the look he gave me was "Screw that, next time I'm getting the shot"..

I'm on good terms with them because, while we all judge the choices of others regardless of whether we admit it or not, I don't hold it against them.. I don't treat them any differently because of their religion or anti-vax status.. They are people, they are my neighbors, and I never wish ill will on them.

I'm not religious, but I still have a Christmas tree because its fun.

 

[Cdkipp]

But ... in all that ... You are relating to your own experiences ... and your own understanding of culture in the US.
Without experiencing first hand how much different people in other countries see things because of their cultural norms, it is hard to understand the big difference in what motivates them.

In the case of you and your neighbor ... there is probably more going on than his knowledge of science ... Maybe he knows some things you don't know....
Just kidding .... don't go off on me over a little humor.

I shockingly am going to agree with Bob on something. Individualism is off the charts in the US (especially now). We are a nation of immigrants with a recent past of frontier values and still a very strong influence of capitalism and resistance of authority.

Japan is much more of a collective society with the focus more on the achievement of the society than the individual. Someone like Samsonite would be ostracized.

Country Comparison - Hofstede Insights

Country comparison Select one or several countries/regions in the menu below to see the values for the 6 dimensions. Go further, discover our cultural survey tool, the Culture Compass™ or join our…

www.hofstede-insights.com

 

[eXodus]

Japan's success is due to the fact that their population has a good understanding of science.. it really is as simple as that.

My home country of Germany is also very science oriented. Still vaccine proportions are underwhelming.

Some part of the German culture is just adverse to any sort of fast change. The focus of this is always in the long term.. Something which isn't on the market for a decade or two will be miss trusted. (Electric Cars and Vaccines)