JBD 4S 200A BMS
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DonPhillipe
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After 6 moths going from conception to 3 months waiting for delivery to finaly seeing implementation last week, I finally got everything set up and have been using the system for a couple of weeks now. (Hell-of-a project and note for the impatient - just take out a loan and order the battleborne and be done with it). I bought two 4S 3.2 280A systems and two JBD 200 BMS units, plus an A & B battery switch that works either/or/and to control the two banks to off, separate or in parallel (redundancy setup).
Here are some questions that people posted here that I didn't see answered:
- "yes" to my own question if 2 bluetooths can be used in the same small space (show up in the android list with the names of the BMS that you name them).
- "maybe a good idea" to the poster who wants the USB computer interface as a backup; redundancy is excellent idea but I've been switching between these two devices during testing maybe 50-100 times a day using an android and it's solid as a rock, even through the transmitters are both in an all metal battery case (granted I'm only 12' away)
- "yes" to my own question regarding selecting between multiple bluetooth signals in one location; positives are that the BMS can be named but negative is that xiaoxiang insists on their name as the marque rather than using the name you named your BMS (have to click on settings and "app setting" if you forget which BMS you are attached to)
The poster who wanted to know what that small 2 wire (red/black) lead is for, if you enable the disconnect feature in the BMS settings, then you have to place a switch to short the leads to turn on the discharge capability. (If they only offered a "charge" instead and I could flip on one bank at a time to charge from my alternator - true you can control this with the phone but just another thing to cause a wreck when a couple of switches would serve a driver better).
While I love the concept of this BMS, I'm a little confused on some of it's antics. For example in a run-down test with both banks switch on (in parallel) with about a 20A load, with the two setups with everything exactly the same, including wire size, cell size, type, and shape, with both BMS exactly the same from the same mfg lot, after 12 hours one BMS showed capacity of 78% while the other showed 34% (they were in parallel). The voltage of both BMS units was showing all cells on both banks around 3.21V at this point. Charging is a different story. From 450W solar, both BMS show 15A in (30A split) and the SOC is the same now on both BMS, showing 62% SOC and all cell voltages in the 3.35V range.
The past week of freezing weather allowed me to test my heating setup. I had elected not to use the BMS for heat sensing even though I had ordered the feature. I decided to remote my BMS about 6" away from cells which are in an insulated container. This worked well as I set the ad-on thermostat at 3C cut in and 6C cut out and my cells averaged 4-6C during the entire night of sub freezing temps. The probes for these thermostats were siliconed on the top of each group of 4 and heated the separate aluminum plates with heaters also under each group of 4). The BMS was down into the negative during this time but still was performing of course. Another reason not to rely on BMS controlling heat is the BMS of course is running warmer than ambient temp during a notable load. (Noting here that research needs to be done and if the BMS uses the probe to the cell itself, then the heating feature should be just fine to use.)
Anecdote and not technically related:
I was using lead/acid before and while with a good education in electronics, I first anticipated this would be a breeze to set up and get a handle on, but instead it's quite the learning curve and actually goes in my bucket of life's experiences titled "things I thought I wanted to know but really didn't". With all the cell balancing and intricate piece work, wiring requirements, adjustments, gotchata's and watch-for's and whatchamacall-its, at least at this stage I wish I had the room for lead/acid and thus it would have made my life a lot less complicated LOL (Hoping I change my mind later.) The skill itself is only beneficial if you work in the trade or spend a lot of time helping others or anticipate trouble, and it's a bit frustrating adding this as another maintenance task especially if you exist with a "massive life full of THINGS". I have to laugh because I relate this to my recent experience waiting in a long line for a new cell chip at the phone store. There was an old country couple who was being served by the tech in the back and while waiting they were strolling around the store reading all the glossy ads on the wall. They both are talking loud and the guy turns to his wife and says "hey hon did yew see this here interneta-thangs - do yew thank we need tha-ut". She replied in her slow country voice "I don't thank so and I don't even know what uh interneta-thangs is". So right about now I'm thinking I ordered the interneta-thangs and don't really need it LOL.
Here are some questions that people posted here that I didn't see answered:
- "yes" to my own question if 2 bluetooths can be used in the same small space (show up in the android list with the names of the BMS that you name them).
- "maybe a good idea" to the poster who wants the USB computer interface as a backup; redundancy is excellent idea but I've been switching between these two devices during testing maybe 50-100 times a day using an android and it's solid as a rock, even through the transmitters are both in an all metal battery case (granted I'm only 12' away)
- "yes" to my own question regarding selecting between multiple bluetooth signals in one location; positives are that the BMS can be named but negative is that xiaoxiang insists on their name as the marque rather than using the name you named your BMS (have to click on settings and "app setting" if you forget which BMS you are attached to)
The poster who wanted to know what that small 2 wire (red/black) lead is for, if you enable the disconnect feature in the BMS settings, then you have to place a switch to short the leads to turn on the discharge capability. (If they only offered a "charge" instead and I could flip on one bank at a time to charge from my alternator - true you can control this with the phone but just another thing to cause a wreck when a couple of switches would serve a driver better).
While I love the concept of this BMS, I'm a little confused on some of it's antics. For example in a run-down test with both banks switch on (in parallel) with about a 20A load, with the two setups with everything exactly the same, including wire size, cell size, type, and shape, with both BMS exactly the same from the same mfg lot, after 12 hours one BMS showed capacity of 78% while the other showed 34% (they were in parallel). The voltage of both BMS units was showing all cells on both banks around 3.21V at this point. Charging is a different story. From 450W solar, both BMS show 15A in (30A split) and the SOC is the same now on both BMS, showing 62% SOC and all cell voltages in the 3.35V range.
The past week of freezing weather allowed me to test my heating setup. I had elected not to use the BMS for heat sensing even though I had ordered the feature. I decided to remote my BMS about 6" away from cells which are in an insulated container. This worked well as I set the ad-on thermostat at 3C cut in and 6C cut out and my cells averaged 4-6C during the entire night of sub freezing temps. The probes for these thermostats were siliconed on the top of each group of 4 and heated the separate aluminum plates with heaters also under each group of 4). The BMS was down into the negative during this time but still was performing of course. Another reason not to rely on BMS controlling heat is the BMS of course is running warmer than ambient temp during a notable load. (Noting here that research needs to be done and if the BMS uses the probe to the cell itself, then the heating feature should be just fine to use.)
Anecdote and not technically related:
I was using lead/acid before and while with a good education in electronics, I first anticipated this would be a breeze to set up and get a handle on, but instead it's quite the learning curve and actually goes in my bucket of life's experiences titled "things I thought I wanted to know but really didn't". With all the cell balancing and intricate piece work, wiring requirements, adjustments, gotchata's and watch-for's and whatchamacall-its, at least at this stage I wish I had the room for lead/acid and thus it would have made my life a lot less complicated LOL (Hoping I change my mind later.) The skill itself is only beneficial if you work in the trade or spend a lot of time helping others or anticipate trouble, and it's a bit frustrating adding this as another maintenance task especially if you exist with a "massive life full of THINGS". I have to laugh because I relate this to my recent experience waiting in a long line for a new cell chip at the phone store. There was an old country couple who was being served by the tech in the back and while waiting they were strolling around the store reading all the glossy ads on the wall. They both are talking loud and the guy turns to his wife and says "hey hon did yew see this here interneta-thangs - do yew thank we need tha-ut". She replied in her slow country voice "I don't thank so and I don't even know what uh interneta-thangs is". So right about now I'm thinking I ordered the interneta-thangs and don't really need it LOL.
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For the record and it may be important for someone, the SP04S034 doesn't support series connection. In contrast to older variants it seems not 80V proof. Thus if you ever want to add another battery in series to reach 24V or beyond, you might see magic smoke comming out.
Actually this is the only thing which worries me on that BMS version, cause I am not hundred percent sure I will stay on 12V forever.
Actually this is the only thing which worries me on that BMS version, cause I am not hundred percent sure I will stay on 12V forever.
DonPhillipe
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Home or vehicle? It would be nice if the instructors in this field would form their narratives based on one of the two directions. For a vehicle going off of a base 12V system doesn't seem logical since every road-ready style appliance for a camper made in the last century is 12V. Also only the people who run on an inverter 24x7 and want to save some copper dollars seem to favor higher voltages in a camper. Then there's always the camp with a high amperage buck converter as a solution to supply the house with 12V but my take is why go to the expense of the exposure of adding such a high potential for failure point.
John Frum
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That is one opinion.
IMO if you want a mobile setup with an inverter with continuous wattage rating higher than 2000 ac watts then going to a higher system voltage is indicated.
For a 50amp RV especially, a 12 volt inverter is just not practical.
If you have slides or jacks or a winch then I suggest a dc2dc charger and lead acid battery as part of the legacy system.
If not then an dc2dc converter is the way to go.
This 48 volt inverter charger includes a 48->12 dc2dc converter.
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DonPhillipe
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A few more anecdotes regarding my dual 280aH camper project. I've been running with dual cheap flooded GC2's (230aH of which 115aH was usable) for years and over the past year I was getting closer to the bottom of my allocated daily aH while considering my daily depletion level was regularly sinking below 60%. Another expense I've gone through this week is, since I have two dissimilar sizes of panels, thus I've always needed two controllers. After getting the new LiFePo4 bank set up, the 30A I have always seen from the 480W of panels and the old-tech controllers (seen on the lead/acid bank the week before) the charge amperage went down to between 2-5A at high-noon when I attached the old controllers to the new banks. I first believed since the old controllers were pre-lithium and also since they claimed programmability, I at first hoped I could tweak them for an acceptible output. Not so. And there goes another near $400US into the pile with a couple of modern MPPTs. Good news is that the current seems to be back up to peaking at 25A.
Still the 30A seems to be only a memory and I am disappointed to say that while my old lead/acid setup with clear southern skies showed the ability to totally re-charged my normal nightly depletion by at least noon the next day, after the switch to LiFePo4, my same normal level of depletion means the new bank takes near all day to fully charge (finishing somewhere around 4PM). All I can see as to what may be causing this is the overhead of all the "maintenance electronics" in the solar controllers and BMS's. That's a pretty stiff price to pay. Looks like I'm in too deep to recover at the moment and I may have to finagle adding more panels as a solution. Maybe I could find more amps by tweaking the controllers but while customizing various controllers for this 4 cell manual seup is always suggested, if one adds in the requirement of a MT50 remote read out and an economical price tag, the suggestions seem to mostly evaporate.
Still the 30A seems to be only a memory and I am disappointed to say that while my old lead/acid setup with clear southern skies showed the ability to totally re-charged my normal nightly depletion by at least noon the next day, after the switch to LiFePo4, my same normal level of depletion means the new bank takes near all day to fully charge (finishing somewhere around 4PM). All I can see as to what may be causing this is the overhead of all the "maintenance electronics" in the solar controllers and BMS's. That's a pretty stiff price to pay. Looks like I'm in too deep to recover at the moment and I may have to finagle adding more panels as a solution. Maybe I could find more amps by tweaking the controllers but while customizing various controllers for this 4 cell manual seup is always suggested, if one adds in the requirement of a MT50 remote read out and an economical price tag, the suggestions seem to mostly evaporate.
I've posted on the topic of system voltage quite a bit and what @DonPhillipe posted previously is what I've been saying.
I have to run cable anyhow. 2/0 or 4/0, it still has to be run. For many installs, the length of the big cable is quite short, measured with single digits, not double digits. Adding complexity to a system (with more components) just to save a bit on cable doesn't make sense to me. That's the most important point in the argument.
It could be argued that a 50 amp fifth wheel with three A/C units is an outlier. It requires a very large investment in batteries, inverters and PV to fully power it. The context that I'm mostly addressing is the typical 30 amp RV or 50 amp RV with a single A/C.
I have to run cable anyhow. 2/0 or 4/0, it still has to be run. For many installs, the length of the big cable is quite short, measured with single digits, not double digits. Adding complexity to a system (with more components) just to save a bit on cable doesn't make sense to me. That's the most important point in the argument.
It could be argued that a 50 amp fifth wheel with three A/C units is an outlier. It requires a very large investment in batteries, inverters and PV to fully power it. The context that I'm mostly addressing is the typical 30 amp RV or 50 amp RV with a single A/C.
DonPhillipe
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I have been using a 2000W PSW inverter I got off of Amazon USA that I paid $178 during a sale. Remarkable unit. It's lasted for over 4 years now powering a 155A draw microwave over a 10' run of 4/0 welding cable. Granted, I don't use it more than 2-3 times a week. My Sprinter alternator @150A rating will power the 30A (45A with A/C running) load of the vehicle electronics with a good chunk left over for charging the cells and without a B2B so far. Not a problem charging them to where the BMS shows them "going to sleep while full" with 100% charge. Once depleted to around 35% SOC, each bank pulls about 55A @ 14.2 from the alternator, so I do need to to switch them in an out if they are both near exhausted, but so far the 55A plus 35A for driving lamps, car computer is only 90A load on the 150A alternator. While I've charged the dual set at near 100A for a while, it makes me a little nervous to hold the load on the alternator that high for that long. Eventually I may add a 200A alternator and just let them bulk charge from that.
I'm still trying to figure all this out and that is how the alternator shows 14.2 going into the JDB BMS 200A and on the BMS, the SOC shows 100%, the cell voltages show a total of 13.8V, yet the voltage being fed into the equipment is clearly 14.2 from the alternator when measured at the cell string positive and neg post of the BMS. Somehow the BMS keeps it down to 13.7 or 13.8 across the cells (as indicated on the bluetooth interface) showing 0 current floowing in/out once this cell voltage is reached. No protection voltage indicator has tripped in the process. Gremlins! Hopefully I'll discover the secret soon.
MakeMePower
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what size wire is running from the alternator to the battery's? and how far is it?
DonPhillipe
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I am sure anything that required 50A service might actually be more like a home than a camper, so yes, I would assume an inverter running all the time. I'm just a little Sprinter puttering along on peanuts and don't think in those terms
DonPhillipe
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What kind of a solar controller are you using on your 4S 280 aH group? Did you find something that you can program or use the default settings? I like the remote meter on my equipment because I don't like fooling with the bluetooth. It's funny that I make a lot of comments in the forums about what a hassle bluetooth is and if you want to prove my point, just go to a grocery store these days and watch all the techies shivering the the rain, wind and weather trying to get their car door open while filing through hundreds of phone aps and options LOL. I just use the key these days, much simpler and I needed to get it out of my pocket anyway. Of course I'd need an auto newer than my 30 year old models to be frustrated with bluetooth, so there you go.
You also mentioned an A/C unit and I assume that you must be running off your batteries? I just don't see how that will work, especially the re-charging part particularly but if you have to idle an engine or run a generator for several hours a day to keep them charged, then may as well just power the A/C off the engine A/C or use a generator to power the AC directly. Don't you agree? I am not sure if we are there yet as far as running a A/C unit off a 23' x 6' rooftop of panels, and considering all the other junk that's up there. But still a lot of youtubers making 1/10 a penny a click from telling people they can..
MakeMePower
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does anyone know the max amperage of the heating option? and what heating pads are most people going with?
I use a Victron SmartSolar MPPT 100/50. That's with Bluetooth.
It's programmable and does a nice job. I have two of those. One for the rooftop solar and one for the ground deployed solar. I recently installed a Victron Multiplus as well as a Cerbo GX with the Touch 50 screen. I suspect I'll look at the Touch 50 screen more and use Bluetooth less to see what the Victron components are doing.
I don't use my air conditioner much. But I am going to test it to see how the inverter and LiFePO4 battery bank handle it. If I really want to run the air conditioning much, I'll put the ground deployed panels out so I have a total of 1280 watts of PV. A Micro-air Easy Start module is on my list of things to add to the air conditioner to make it play better with the inverter.
DonPhillipe
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Sounds out of my budget but thank you for the kind reply.
OTRwSolar
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Looks like JBD may have redesigned the B-/C- terminals (or is offering two different versions) of the 200a BMS. I prefer the 1st gen version where the copper terminals extend out from the heat sink about an inch or so and require a nut and bolt to secure. It's much easier to securely tighten the terminal without the possibility of stripping anything, or damaging the circuit board underneath.
John Frum
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Any idea what the "h-" screw terminal is for?
It's to power a heating element/pad for cold weather charging.
Heater port
is powered on when charge is applied AND temp is below the set temperature
DonPhillipe
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I have the exact one in the photo.
A "gotcha" with one the one with the heater port is to figure out if it's the BMS battery probe or the BMS internal temp sensor that is reading the temperature to control the heater and where the BMS is mounted in relation to the battery.) I wasn't sure so even though I have the heater port, I just installed a $5 thermostat rather than experiment to discover how it worked, and that's since my BMS is outside my insulated battery case.
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