Just smart enough to be dangerous!

[Rednecktek]

I'm thinking that the huge costs are a combination of A: Future proofing, B: Planning for worst case scenario, C: The huge cost of labor and D: Licensing and regulatory fees.

If the estimates were only about $70k that would still be painful, but once you started rough-estimating the equipment costs it'd probably be pretty close. You gotta remember that labor is on average 50+% of any build job.

I'd lean toward the DYI end of things, even if only picking out what kind of equipment you would need and then hiring a professional licensed electrician to do the install so that you can get the inspections and all cleared through.

Utilities are a Take-It-Or-Take-It, but NOT a monopoly, you just don't have any choices.

 

[Porch]

I'm thinking that the huge costs are a combination of A: Future proofing, B: Planning for worst case scenario, C: The huge cost of labor and D: Licensing and regulatory fees.

You forgot E: Dealing with a crazy owner with a weed wacker fee.

 

[Rednecktek]

You forgot E: Dealing with a crazy owner with a weed wacker fee.

Hey! I resemble that remark!

 

[Bri from IA]

My experience with a Sol-Ark 12K in an off-grid setup is that it can run pretty much all the small house and heat-pump AC and microwaves, dish washer, coffee pots, four fridges/freezers. But throw in an electric drier or electric stove (oven) and we're over the limit and the inverter will shut down. By itself, an electric drier or electric stove can run with the inverter, but little else at the same time. Perhaps the two-unit suggestion is more about peak loads. BTW, we have a tank system electric water heater that I re-wired so its rating was 2200watts, and it works just fine too.

Though if you happen to have LP gas stove and LP drier, then you should be in good shape with one unit.

 

[OldMech]

Cool, thank you!
Bri, thats what I was hoping. No dishwasher and the Dryer I was considering running a generator when forced to use it. We already have a line outside, but Iowa winters can be less than fun when the clothes need dried. Like I said I think a lot of it will be learning the limits and then living within those limits, OR expanding if the limits are too strict. What do you think of your Sol-Ark inverter? I was looking at the Sol-Ark and the SunGold Inverters... Also, SunPower panels are the most efficient, but it seems their customer service is non existent? So LG panels instead? What are you all using for your equipment?

 

[Porch]

Outback, Schneider, SMA have all been in the business for 20 years and have UL and code approved options. Sol-Ark is a close section to them, or in line, depends on who you ask.
All the other manufactures are new to the business, and have not weathered the test of time yet, or are not UL or code approved. If you want to play and DIY, then they may be good option.

Best way to pick solar panels is by price. Look for the most watts per dollar. The only reason you want to spend a premium on high efficiently panels is when you have limited roof space and need to get as much power as you can per square foot.

 

[Porch]

Outback, Schneider, SMA have all been in the business for 20 years and have UL and code approved options. Sol-Ark is a close to them, or in line, depends on who you ask.
All the other manufactures are new to the business, and have not weathered the test of time yet, or are not UL or code approved. If you want to play and DIY, then they may be good option.

Best way to pick solar panels is by price. Look for the most watts per dollar. The only reason you want to spend a premium on high efficiently panels is when you have limited roof space and need to get as much power as you can per square foot.

 

[fafrd]

Outback, Schneider, SMA have all been in the business for 20 years and have UL and code approved options. Sol-Ark is a close section to them, or in line, depends on who you ask.
All the other manufactures are new to the business, and have not weathered the test of time yet, or are not UL or code approved. If you want to play and DIY, then they may be good option.

Best way to pick solar panels is by price. Look for the most watts per dollar. The only reason you want to spend a premium on high efficiently panels is when you have limited roof space and need to get as much power as you can per square foot.

I agree with this as long as you are also including the cost of racking as well as cabling / combining into the $/W calculation (and even that is an underestimation since you should factor in something for the additional work/hassle of each additional panel you need to mount).

All-in, the lowest cost I can get racking done on my slanted roof is $40 per panel or $0.08 to $0.16 for panels of 500W to 250W.

The used 230W panels from Santan Solar for $58 are hard to beat ($0.25/W), but once I factored in the ~10% loss of efficiency for 10-year-old degraded efficiency closer to 205W ($0.283/W) and added the $40 cost of racking each panel ($0.195/W) I ended up at over $0.48/W all-in.

I had the opportunity to purchase new (w/ full 30-year warranty) 380W panels for $0.39/W or $0.50/W including racking, which was a much more attractive option, especially once the reduced effort/labor was factored in.

 

[Bri from IA]

Cool, thank you!
Bri, thats what I was hoping. No dishwasher and the Dryer I was considering running a generator when forced to use it. We already have a line outside, but Iowa winters can be less than fun when the clothes need dried. Like I said I think a lot of it will be learning the limits and then living within those limits, OR expanding if the limits are too strict. What do you think of your Sol-Ark inverter? I was looking at the Sol-Ark and the SunGold Inverters... Also, SunPower panels are the most efficient, but it seems their customer service is non existent? So LG panels instead? What are you all using for your equipment?

I've been very happy with the Sol-Ark 12k, and I'm not familiar with the other brands you listed. My main criteria was UL listed and rated for series-connected panels. It supports up to 500VDC of panels in series, 4 strings total. I'm using 9 panels in 3 strings, could have been 10 or 11 panels. My open circuit voltage is in the 350VDC range, but a person also needs to be aware of the -30F panel open-circuit voltage phenomena, so I'm well below that. Higher voltage means smaller wiring... I used #10AWG, but it needs to be PV wire, special for higher voltage DC. Don't use THHN or THWN-2, i.e. common building wire for the solar panel wiring.

The Sol-Ark has cloud interface, which isn't required if you don't want it, but is nice store a crazy amount of historical data and be able to access with phone/computer to check on things. I can't change settings remotely, but can see what's happening. I've also had a trip/error once, and Sol-Ark contacted me about it... impressive. If I ever feel like big-brother is watching too closely, I'll pull the WIFI interface, and run in dark-ops mode.

My panels are Mission Solar. got them from PowerStore in (Houston?) Texas anyway. They are made in USA, but that might be just final assembly, not the whole ball of wax. I wouldn't pay extra for "efficient" panels, unless you are space-limited, and I generally agree with the lowest $/watt. But keep an eye on the frame dimensions and thickness so they remain rigid. I have a ground-mounted rack system of my own creation, and it was quite expensive, a little more than the panels if I recall. You'll want to plan ahead for that. I didn't have a good roof to do it, and several local installers encouraged me to build a dedicated building with a roof that angled south. My terrain and house location didn't permit that, but it would have been close in cost if my terrain worked... and I would have had a nice shed for acreage toys. Maybe next time.

I have 27 panels at 320watts each, for a total of 8,640W. On some days when they were new, I'd get 9,500-10,000 watts at times (in winter with snow on the ground). This summer, with hotter temps and dirty glass, I'd peak out around 7,500 watts, so I'm curious how they will perform in this next winter. Time will tell if I add more panels or not. I'm in a year-long learning mode for now.

My battery is custom DIY, bought them from Michael Caro in the group buy section, took about 3 months. Shipping was slow and with log-jams at Long Beach then, and I think it might be worse now. I recommend him: didn't know him at all, but it worked out great... saved a bunch of money. 272AH cells, 80 of them. I have two strings. One string is 3P16S, the other is 2P16S, for a grand total of 1360AH. Each string is protected with Class T fuse, don't use the ANL style. The Class T fuse is rated to interupt large short-circuit DC currents. I used 2/0 welding cable from the battery to the Sol-Ark, but if I did it over, I'd use 4/0. When the battery charge/discharge is high, i.e. 100amps or more, I get notable voltage drop, about 0.5V or so. But it just annoys my psyche, doesn't seem to affect anything.

For the battery, I got a JK active balancer and a JBD (aka Overkill Solar) BMS/protection, one pair for each string. The balancer and BMS are both bluetooth, so I can get close with my phone and check into them. The BMS's are wired to a "Electric Car Parts" DC power relay, 200A, to disconnect the battery if there's a battery cell that's too high/low voltage or too cold.

The battery can get me through about 3 days of care-free power useage during full clouds. Keep in mind that full overcast, can still eak out some (roughly 10%) solar generation, but is highly dependent on how thick the clouds are. If I cut back usage to just essentials, I could probably get about a week without sun.

I still have utility power, and have re-wired my house to be split into 4 different interlocked panels, which I can individually put on solar or on utilty. During winter all geothermal will be on utility, unless an emergency. If it were just a LP gas furnace, that could be on solar, but geothermal is too much for my system. I don't have a generator to charge the battery.

 

[John Frum]

Don't use THHN or THWN-2, i.e. common building wire for the solar panel wiring.

Its generally a good idea to say why not.

 

[Bri from IA]

Its generally a good idea to say why not.

The PV wire is UV rated (i.e. direct sun-exposure), which common building wire isn't. Also common buiding wire is rated for 600V AC systems. A series-connected PV system is up to 500VDC. I'm pretty sure the PV wire is rated up to 1000VDC.

 

[OldMech]

Holy crap you guys are worth your weight in gold. Thank you for taking the time to write that Up Bri !!! Very helpful!
I have built the system in my head a few times, but am working on getting it all on paper. I am also going with a ground mount. I will set poles, I have the auger, cement mixer, poles etc. I REALLY don't want to put extra holes in my roof, and have several hundred acres to put the ground mount in... Fortunately VERY close to my house so it should be a short wire run, even shorter than from the power pole. My outdoor wood furnace, which is mounted inside my wood shed has a blower and a water circulation pump on it. That heats the floors which heat the house. I am trying to get information on them to see what they draw. I am certain it will be less than the AC system, which will ONLY run in the bedroom where my wife requires -30 degree F temperatures in order to even sleep... :/ Honestly keeping HER cold at night is my greatest concern in the heat of summer..

 

[OldMech]

figured it out already!! deleted the dumb question!

 

[OldMech]

Is going with a larger than necessary Inverter a good idea? I believe my house, when it is ready should run on a 12000 watt inverter. But I am currently investigating the 15000, and 18000 watt SunGold inverters. I like the Dakota 48 volt 96ah LifePo 4 batteries as well, but I do not understand why they are claimed to be better VALUE WISE than lead acid or AGM....
Does anyone have experience with them? Everyone says do NOT use the Lead Acid or AGM Batteries... But looking at the prices and lifespans, I could replace the Lead Acid almost three times at the initial cost of the lithium batteries. In considering lifespans and value the lead Acid still come out quite far ahead when the 20 to 30 year COST is figured in? Yes I know you cannot discharge them as much and they have a shorter cycle life. The Lead Acid were what we used at our Camp in Maine. Maintaining them wasnt that difficult at all. So I don't really understand the huge dislike?
Cost is not the limiting factor here. Spending money needlessly is, which is how I see sending a check to the utility company every month, when the power is freely available. I built my own truck, I built my own car, I built my own house, I intend to build my own solar/wind system, and save myself three hundred + a month.
ELECTRIC BILL you all asked for... This is the month my sons wedding was here at the house, with campers plugged in, the big walk in freezer running, three refrigerators, full AC in the house, lot of people using hot water, etc etc...
Avg Daily 61.87 kWh Monthly usage was 1,918 kWh.
In 2020, the average annual electricity consumption for a U.S. residential utility customer was 10,715 (kWh), an average of about 893 kWh per month.
1000 kWh a month/33kWh a day, is what i am going to try to base my system on, and then I am going to try to come in below that number.
I like the idea of staying connected now that I have considered it, and using GRID power to charge the batteries when necessary, with the generators available in the event of long term grid power loss (Which has happened more than once due to tornadoes and straight line winds. Provided, Alliant doesnt throw a FIT like they have for other people nearby..

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

As long as you realize that you shouldn't go below 50% (and thus need twice the capacity to equal LiFePO4), sure, why not. LiFePO4 has additional advantages of absorbing much faster to 100% etc., but if that's not a deal breaker... You could DIY a LiFePO4 as well instead of off the shelf to save a ton of money, or use one (or several) of those that Will recently reviewed.

 

[fafrd]

I like the Dakota 48 volt 96ah LifePo 4 batteries as well, but I do not understand why they are claimed to be better VALUE WISE than lead acid or AGM....

Everyone says do NOT use the Lead Acid or AGM Batteries... But looking at the prices and lifespans, I could replace the Lead Acid almost three times at the initial cost of the lithium batteries.

In considering lifespans and value the [b{lead Acid still come out quite far ahead when the 20 to 30 year COST is figured in? [/b] Yes I know you cannot discharge them as much and they have a shorter cycle life. The Lead Acid were what we used at our Camp in Maine. Maintaining them wasnt that difficult at all. So I don't really understand the huge dislike?

Cost is not the limiting factor here. Spending money needlessly is, which is how I see sending a check to the utility company every month, when the power is freely available.

You have experience with LA, so your in the best position to know $/kWh/usable cycle.

With LiFePO4, if properly built, you can get ~3500 cycles @ 100% SOC to 80% capacity and more than that if you limit to 80% SOC from the start.

Add in the fact that the usable energy density of LiFePO4 is -2.9-3.6 that of LA as well as the fact that many of us paid less for 900Wh of LiFePO4 than we’d pay for 600Wh of usable LA, and it becomes pretty much of a no brainer.

Of course, finished LiFePO4 batteries cost more, but they are getting closer to DIY costs with each passing year.

For example here is a turnkey 5.1kWh LiFePO4 battery costing $1500: https://www.signaturesolar.com/products/48v-100ah-lifepower4-battery-by-eg4

5.12kWh limited to 80% translates to >3500 cycles @ 4.1kWh or 14,336kWh total cycled through a battery that can deliver 4.1kWh each and every day for over 10 years straight.

A total of 14,336kWh cycled for $1500 translates to 10.5 cents per kWh cycled through the battery - curious how you think a LA will measure up against that?

4.1kW of usable LA batteries is going to take 7 100Ah cells @ 50% and in my experience, will w hard to acquire for much under $750 (half the cost of the Signature Solar LiFePO4 battery).

So those 7 LA cells would need to deliver over 1750 charge/discharge cycles to outperform that LiFePO4 on cost.

1750 cycles translates to 4.8 years which in my experience, is pretty close to the most I can generally expect from a LA battery…

 

[OldMech]

Our batteries were 8 years old when we sold the camp and still functioning without complaint.The only time we had trouble was usually in the winter when we hit a two week or more period of VERY cloudy and storms. At which times we would run the generator about 4 hours to recharge the batteries. and we were good to go for another three or four days if it remained cloudy..
That was my only experience with LA batteries.
As far as prices? I am basing my prices off what I see I can look up the Lithium batteries for online.. as you stated if I can actually get them cheaper through another means that would seriously impact my current "assumptions"

Dakota lithium lifepo 4, 48 volt, 96AH = 2700 dollars Ea x 12 = 1152 AH… $32,400.00

Cedar Creek battery.., 200AH battery 1900 Ea. x12 = 2400AH @ $22,800.00

Renogy… 200AH AGM Battery 371.00 ea x 12 = 2400AH @ $4,452.00

The batteries we used at the camp were Die Hard Deep Cycle 200AH 4D I can get at 221.99 ea Yes must check water, Vent etc…

12 of them will cost 2,663.88

I can replace them twice compared to the AGM’s, Eight and a half times compared to the Cedar Creek LifePo’s and 12.16 times for the Dakota Batteries….

Your right, LA will need a lot of fussing and care by comparison, but not so much fussing and care that it will bother me, if that makes any sense?

HOWEVER, I do not understand the correlation between a 12 volt 200AH Battery hooked in series to get 48 volts and the 48 Volt 96AH battery in parallel, so I might be very wrong…. Without this knowledge I am just comparing AH to AH, and am not very happy with the 96 AH Rating.

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

Stop thinking in Ah and put it in Wh. 12V x 200Ah x 4 = 9.6kWh and 48V x 96Ah x 4 = 18.4kWh. In other words, the one you're not happy with has twice the capacity for the same amount of batteries.

12 of them will cost 2,663.88

200Ah x 12V = 2.4kWh - however only 50% usable if lead acid, so 1.2kWh

As far as prices? I am basing my prices off what I see I can look up the Lithium batteries for online.. as you stated if I can actually get them cheaper through another means that would seriously impact my current "assumptions"

EG4 48V 100AH LiFePower4 Battery

ADD-ON CHARGER DEAL Get the EG4 LiFePo4 Battery Charger for 33% off in cart DESCRIPTION SPECS & MANUAL VIDEOS SHIPPING 48V EG4-Lifepower4 Signature Solar’s premier lithium battery, GYLL, has been rebranded to EG4. You can expect the same great battery with the same top-of-the-line, Tier One, A+...

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48V x 100Ah = 4.8kWh. If you take your 12V x 200Ah x 12 = 28.kkWh of which 50% usable = 14.4kWh. You'd need 3 of those to match the capacity, coming in at $4500.

 

[fafrd]

Our batteries were 8 years old when we sold the camp and still functioning without complaint.The only time we had trouble was usually in the winter when we hit a two week or more period of VERY cloudy and storms.

The only problem with that ‘metric’ is that is sounds as though you might have been cycling your LA batteries well below 50% SOC for the vast majority of days. Cycle LiFePO4 at much lower SOC most of the time and will get much more than 3500 cycles…

At which times we would run the generator about 4 hours to recharge the batteries. and we were good to go for another three or four days if it remained cloudy..

that makes it sound like you were cycling less than 1/3rd of 50% or only 17% of your batteries rated capacity for the vast majority of days. If true, you’d get 10 years of use from a LiFePO4 battery with only 1-6th the rated capacity…

That was my only experience with LA batteries.”
As far as prices? I am basing my prices off what I see I can look up the Lithium batteries for online.. as you stated if I can actually get them cheaper through another means that would seriously impact my current "assumptions"

For sure you can spend a fortune if you want to get into the tax break ‘racket’ and overpay for high-end batteries like the Tesla Powerwall.

I spent ~$1500 for a 560Ah / 14kWh DIY LiFePO4 battery, so that gives you some idea of material costs involved.

Many/most decent-quality off-the-shelf LiFePO batteries cost at least 4x or even 5x that much, but the 5.1kWh GYLL LiFePO4 battery I linked to appears to be very well made (welded connections) and only costs ~2.8x the material cost of a DIY LiFePO4 battery.

Dakota lithium lifepo 4, 48 volt, 96AH = 2700 dollars Ea x 12 = 1152 AH… $32,400.00

$2700 / 4.8kWh = $562/kWh

Cedar Creek battery.., 200AH battery 1900 Ea. x12 = 2400AH @ $22,800.00

$1900 / 10kWh = $19/kWh (assuming 48V)

Renogy… 200AH AGM Battery 371.00 ea x 12 = 2400AH @ $4,452.00

These are 12V batteries and you can only use 100Ah (50%), so each is 1.2kWh usable and $371 / 1.2kWh = $309/kWh usable.

12 of these AGM batteries is only providing you with 600Ah or 14.4kWh of usable capacity at a cost of $4.5K.

For that same $4.5K you could purchase 3 of the 5.1kW GYLL LiFePO4 batteries that would give you 15.3kWh of usable capacity or 6% more capacity for 3500 cycles to 80% capacity.

And in terms of the Dakota Battery you referenced, it is 12V not 48V, so you only need 3 of them to get 14.4kWh at a cost of $8100, not 12 at a cost of $32,400.

So the Dakota battery costs 182% the cost of the Renelogy AGM battery for equivalent usable capacity while the GYLL battery costs the same price for longer lifetime at the same usable capacity…

The batteries we used at the camp were Die Hard Deep Cycle 200AH 4D I can get at 221.99 ea Yes must check water, Vent etc…

12 of them will cost 2,663.88

100Ah of usable capacity translates to $2663.88 for 14.4kWh usable or $185/jWh usable (60% the cost per usable kWh of the AGM and GYLL batteries but for much shorter cycle life).

I can replace them twice compared to the AGM’s, Eight and a half times compared to the Cedar Creek LifePo’s and 12.16 times for the Dakota Batteries….

I think your math is wrong because you have not factored in equivalent usable capacity as I have outlined above.

The cost of the diehard batteries is $371/$222= 167% the cost of the AGMs (meaning you can replace the diehards 5 times for every 3 times you replace the AGMs).

And the cost per usable kWh of the Dakota Creek batteries is $562/kWw usable, or 253% the cost of the Diehards (so you can replace 2-1/2 times for every replacement of the Dakota LiFePO4s). If you get 1400 cycles or close to 4 years from your DieHards, it’s pretty much a wash.

If you compare to the GYLL LiFePO4 batteries at the equivalent 67% premium as the AGMs, your Diehards will have to deliver 2100 cycles or 5.75 years of daily cycling before needing replacement to break even.

Maybe not impossible, but certainly not a no-brainer…

Your right, LA will need a lot of fussing and care by comparison, but not so much fussing and care that it will bother me, if that makes any sense?

My suspicion is that if you actually characterize the usable capacity you actually need, you can probably get away with a battery that is at least 1/3rd as big if not 1/4 or even 1/5th as big as you’ve been using (if you can accept the hassle of running your generator every other day rather than every 4-5 days on cloudy spells.

This means you can probably get by with a single 200Ah / 5.1kWh GYLL LiFePO4 costing you $1500 rather than replacing all 12 diehards at a cost of nearly twice amount.

HOWEVER, I do not understand the correlation between a 12 volt 200AH Battery hooked in series to get 48 volts and the 48 Volt 96AH battery in parallel, so I might be very wrong…. Without this knowledge I am just comparing AH to AH, and am not very happy with the 96 AH Rating.

Yes, that’s one of the factors you got wrong. 200Ah x 48V = 9.6kWh = 800Ah x 12V (so you only need 1/4 as many Ah at 48V as you do at 12V).

In addition, you have to factor in the 50% usable capacity of LA versus the 100% usable capacity of LiFePO4 (another factor of 2).

Combined, those two factors threw off your relative comparison to the Dakota battery by 800%…

 

[fafrd]

Stop thinking in Ah and put it in Wh. 12V x 200Ah x 4 = 9.6kWh and 48V x 96Ah x 4 = 18.4kWh. In other words, the one you're not happy with has twice the capacity for the same amount of batteries.



200Ah x 12V = 2.4kWh - however only 50% usable if lead acid, so 1.2kWh

EG4 48V 100AH LiFePower4 Battery

ADD-ON CHARGER DEAL Get the EG4 LiFePo4 Battery Charger for 33% off in cart DESCRIPTION SPECS & MANUAL VIDEOS SHIPPING 48V EG4-Lifepower4 Signature Solar’s premier lithium battery, GYLL, has been rebranded to EG4. You can expect the same great battery with the same top-of-the-line, Tier One, A+...

shop.signaturesolar.us

48V x 100Ah = 4.8kWh. If you take your 12V x 200Ah x 12 = 28.kkWh of which 50% usable = 14.4kWh. You'd need 3 of those to match the capacity, coming in at $4500.

Thanks for getting that point across much more succinctly than I did .