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Larger mini-split using dramatically more energy than smaller one

Hi all. Thanks for the many comments and ideas.

First, I think I need to use this unit more as the primary heat source for the space before I reach a definitive conclusion and do anything. I'm just surprised by the amount of energy I see it using WHEN it's used (which isn't all that often in the middle of winter) compared to a smaller unit in the same building. I've primarily used it only when we're fully recharged, have hours of sun remaining in the day, and I want to raise the temp in tue space by a couple of degrees (which seems small, but maybe that's the issue).

The line sets are only about 11' long, and all three units were installed late this past summer by a certified Mitsubishi contractor that does a lot of installs. It's a fairly small company but has experienced techs. A manual J was performed separately by both a local Mitsubishi wholesaler (my friend owns it) and me, and we came up with almost identical figures. The installer agreed with the sizing for the units, and all three of us agreed that the 18K unit was on the large size for the load, but we went with that because the space (our garage) would sometimes be subject to larger temperature swings than the other two units.

The unit in question is designed for shoulder season heating, and summer cooling, as it's in our garage area, which is primarily heated with a hydronic slab. However, it's not a typical garage. Walls are R43 (same as the home), the back wall has other rooms facing it (so no exterior exposure), and there are no windows other than small ones in the garage doors, which are rated R17. There are two insulated fiberglass "man doors" that are the same as the rest of the building's doors. The slab underneath has R10 insulation (again, hydronic slab). The space is 12' tall with R65 insulation between the garage and the living space above it and the indoor unit is mounted about 9' high, midway along a long wall of the space. All walls and ceiling are air-sealed with vapor-variable material applied by a professional insulating company. We do not struggle to heat the space with the hydronic slab and can easily keep it at 65F (without the heat pump on at all) even at -10F. You cannot hear vehicles running or people working in the garage, from the living space above it. I don't think we're losing much heat anywhere other than the garage doors, and R17 isn't shabby for those. The heating load is only about 14,500 BTUs/hour (not much more than the living space above it).

Other than possibly low refrigerant and the size difference compared to the 12K unit, the only thing that might be throwing me off is the need to make up a 2-3 degree difference after the garage doors have been opened, but that only happens a couple of times per day, most days, and we have a 3-degree night setback for the 12K unit in the living area, that doesn't have as drastic a consumption difference when it makes up that difference in the morning (yes, I'm well aware of the advice to "set it and forget it, but we like cooler sleeping temps).

So...... I'm going to go with "watchful waiting" once we turn off the slab heat in spring, and see what happens, especially on days when we're away and there's no activity in the building. Time (and the Emporia Vue data) will tell... I'm just surprised at how much energy the unit uses even after the temperature in the space has reached the setpoint, we're not opening doors, and it's just maintaining the temperature at a point maybe 2 degrees higher than we would keep it using the hydronic slab. I'll let the installers deal with it if there's an issue.
 
"Open the door a couple of times per day" and no setback compared to the living area is not an apples to apples comparison, you have a higher BTU load for the 18K unit, end of story.
 
"Open the door a couple of times per day" and no setback compared to the living area is not an apples to apples comparison, you have a higher BTU load for the 18K unit, end of story.
Well, it's not "end of story", because

1) Sometimes we don't open them at all
2) The higher usage happens even after temperature is achieved
3) The higher usage is not even some double-digit % difference, it's a multiple.

I do think we need more data, but it's too early to draw the conclusions you are drawing.
 
I'm just surprised at how much energy the unit uses even after the temperature in the space has reached the setpoint
Is it the amount of energy kwh over time that you are concerned about or the amount of power amps that it pulls whilst it is working, subtle but significant difference if you see what I'm getting at.
 
I have an 18K mini split in my rather large three-car garage and I absolutely love that thing. It doesn't take long to pull the temperature and humidity down to keep me and my inverters happy and then it just idles along at a few hundred watts at the most.
It doesn't hurt as much to oversize these variable speed compressor systems because they can slow down to match the load.
 
Hi all. Thanks for the many comments and ideas.

First, I think I need to use this unit more as the primary heat source for the space before I reach a definitive conclusion and do anything. I'm just surprised by the amount of energy I see it using WHEN it's used (which isn't all that often in the middle of winter) compared to a smaller unit in the same building. I've primarily used it only when we're fully recharged, have hours of sun remaining in the day, and I want to raise the temp in tue space by a couple of degrees (which seems small, but maybe that's the issue).

The line sets are only about 11' long, and all three units were installed late this past summer by a certified Mitsubishi contractor that does a lot of installs. It's a fairly small company but has experienced techs. A manual J was performed separately by both a local Mitsubishi wholesaler (my friend owns it) and me, and we came up with almost identical figures. The installer agreed with the sizing for the units, and all three of us agreed that the 18K unit was on the large size for the load, but we went with that because the space (our garage) would sometimes be subject to larger temperature swings than the other two units.

The unit in question is designed for shoulder season heating, and summer cooling, as it's in our garage area, which is primarily heated with a hydronic slab. However, it's not a typical garage. Walls are R43 (same as the home), the back wall has other rooms facing it (so no exterior exposure), and there are no windows other than small ones in the garage doors, which are rated R17. There are two insulated fiberglass "man doors" that are the same as the rest of the building's doors. The slab underneath has R10 insulation (again, hydronic slab). The space is 12' tall with R65 insulation between the garage and the living space above it and the indoor unit is mounted about 9' high, midway along a long wall of the space. All walls and ceiling are air-sealed with vapor-variable material applied by a professional insulating company. We do not struggle to heat the space with the hydronic slab and can easily keep it at 65F (without the heat pump on at all) even at -10F. You cannot hear vehicles running or people working in the garage, from the living space above it. I don't think we're losing much heat anywhere other than the garage doors, and R17 isn't shabby for those. The heating load is only about 14,500 BTUs/hour (not much more than the living space above it).

Other than possibly low refrigerant and the size difference compared to the 12K unit, the only thing that might be throwing me off is the need to make up a 2-3 degree difference after the garage doors have been opened, but that only happens a couple of times per day, most days, and we have a 3-degree night setback for the 12K unit in the living area, that doesn't have as drastic a consumption difference when it makes up that difference in the morning (yes, I'm well aware of the advice to "set it and forget it, but we like cooler sleeping temps).

So...... I'm going to go with "watchful waiting" once we turn off the slab heat in spring, and see what happens, especially on days when we're away and there's no activity in the building. Time (and the Emporia Vue data) will tell... I'm just surprised at how much energy the unit uses even after the temperature in the space has reached the setpoint, we're not opening doors, and it's just maintaining the temperature at a point maybe 2 degrees higher than we would keep it using the hydronic slab. I'll let the installers deal with it if there's an issue.
Damn! That is almost a super insulated house.

Off-topicWhat kind of ventilation system so you have and does it keep CO2 levels in check?
 
You can't compare the two units without factoring in the heat loads of the spaces they serve. Comparing to how well your hydronic can heat the space is a moot point if your boiler has a higher capacity than the mini-split. You could compare consumption history of the hydronic to your mini-split, factor in the COP for the outside temperature, and see if it's reasonable.

You have under slab insulation, but is the edge of your slab or the outside of the stem walls/foundation insulated?

What type of garage doors and how well are they installed? Can you see daylight through the seals? Garage door R-values tend to be misleading. A metal door with R-17 is going to have an assembly R-value well below R-17. Even a well installed door is likely to have air leaks.

Our basement is 10 degrees colder near our walkout garage door. It's R-12.9, but because it's metal, and they don't use a thermal break between the inside and outside panels, it's actually garbage. It's adjusted as well as possible, but still has air leaks unless we clamp it to the wall. The edge of the slab isn't insulated, and the searching I've done shows we lose about 1kbtus per 10' of slab edge at a 70 degree differential. In theory we lose more heat at the slab edge then the rest of the basement floor, which has no insulation underneath.
 
Hi all. Tell ya what, I’ll come back to this in Spring. I really just wanted to get a feel from others about whether you also experienced a rather large difference in energy consumption between different sizes of similar units. It sounds like most don’t.

I’ll compare the units (12k vs 18K) when both units are the full time heat in their respective spaces. Until then, it’s navel gazing. That larger mini-split isn’t even needed during “real” winter, and based on propane used for the hydronic it’s clearly not a situation where the garage is leaking massive amounts of heat. Will (probably) report back later. Thanks.
 
Damn! That is almost a super insulated house.

Off-topicWhat kind of ventilation system so you have and does it keep CO2 levels in check?
Two pairs of Lunos HRVs but not yet installed because of other projects. Have been deliberately leaking air into living space above garage (where the 12K is the only heat) through two known openings from attic and knee wall and I still can’t make that mini-split work hard! That may be my problem: The 12K performs so well, I might be spoiled.
 
Two pairs of Lunos HRVs but not yet installed because of other projects. Have been deliberately leaking air into living space above garage (where the 12K is the only heat) through two known openings from attic and knee wall and I still can’t make that mini-split work hard! That may be my problem: The 12K performs so well, I might be spoiled.
When testing see how many cycles per hour, you could have such a small heat loss the unit is running at its minimum and cycling the compressor on and off. I run into this all the time with radiant floor systems with small zones, I try and find a boiler with the highest turn down ratio and will use a buffer tank to lessen short cycling.
 
Am I misunderstanding something?
Man I wrote that early this AM. Doesnt make enough sense, does it...thanks for being diplomatic.

I meant the 12K unit appears...in practice...to be requiring much much less than the "14500 BTU/hr" Garage 18K unit you said was ~ ballpark similar to what you all had calculated for it (the 12K unit).

I.e. as was said, you may be using 3X as much power on the Garage unit because the real load is 3X as much.
 
Sounds like the only way to solve this is swap out the 18k with a 12k and see how much energy the 12k would use to heat the same space. Just kidding.

Does your monitoring system able to measure power factor?

Maybe the larger unit has higher fixed powerfactor correction, so while it needs less btu heating it eats up “power” as you measure it.

My mistu 30k btu hyper heat draws 1.2a when idle, as measured by my clamp meter (both head units off and ambient temps in the 70s.) I don’t have an easy way to measure powerfactor.
 
Sounds like the only way to solve this is swap out the 18k with a 12k and see how much energy the 12k would use to heat the same space. Just kidding.

Does your monitoring system able to measure power factor?

Maybe the larger unit has higher fixed powerfactor correction, so while it needs less btu heating it eats up “power” as you measure it.

My mistu 30k btu hyper heat draws 1.2a when idle, as measured by my clamp meter (both head units off and ambient temps in the 70s.) I don’t have an easy way to measure powerfactor.
I can't measure power factor, unfortunately.

I'm convinced something is off with that unit (I suspect low 410A and will have it checked when we get into spring).

I had run out of ways to use electricity day before yesterday so I thought, "What the heck - Let me try that unit again." Outside temps were around 35-40F. Garage was about 64 with the radiant set to 60, so we sure didn't have much heating demand. Upstairs heat pump had turned itself off as solar gain was handling everything. I turned this garage unit on and set it to 70.

To bring garage up to temp, it used about 1.6 KW per hour, which isn't unreasonable. But then to keep it there, with the radiant heat still on and set to 60, it still used about 880-900 watts/hour, for hour after hour. This is in a building with R40+ walls, R65 above it, R17 garage doors, and a fully heated up 64 degree slab under it. There's just no way that space is loosing heat that fast. It's almost like 880-900 watts is this unit's minimum consumption level when it's on at all, which is crazy compared to the 12K unit, which sits all day at about 150-175 watts even when it's near 0 outside with a stiff wind. If that's the case, I'd be much better off just installing two 12K units.

We installed this unit primarily to cool the garage in summer, when we're making so much electricity it basically doesn't matter. But I wanted to use it for shoulder season heat starting in late March. At the rate it uses electricity, I'm wondering about that.
 
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When you write "There's just no way that space is loosing heat that fast", that is not a measurement.

What one could do is measure the time from then the heat pump is off to when the garage hits the set temperature radiant ( 64 to 60 degree ) to calculate the btu loss.

What I believe is happening is your indirectly heating the radiant loop with the exposed concrete floor when the garage is being heated above the set temperature of the radiant loop, in essence, your trying to have a 2 zone system when one is thermally connected to the other and the higher load is the indicator of this.
 

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